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OK - What's that layout and really cost?

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Posted by brothaslide on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago.


"What you talkin' about Willis!!!"

Alright Big Boy 4005 - Spill the beans; who are you?

Dude, you spent $250,000 on a layout - WOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets hear the details. What's it like to build a layout like that? Can we all help with the next one?[:D][:D][:D]
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:53 PM
Now there's a question to ponder! I remember the days when I actually kept every single receipt for every purchase I made. What was I thinking? Was I going to weep over them at a later date??? NOT!

But back to your question brothaslide, I'd guest that a large, private layout would range anywhere from $30 - $70K. There are so many variables to consider, I'm probably on the low side of things.
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 9:33 PM
I looked into the cost of professional layout building a few years ago out of curiosity. The going rate for an HO scale for a fully scenicked layout was aobut $450 per square foot, with N a bit higher. That could go higher for things like urban scenery, which explains the MSI $1000/SF.

I also saw in one of the magazines an estimate that materials only for most layouts comes in at about $125 per square foot. No surprise that the labor component is really huge when you have someone else build the layout for you (excluding friends who can be bought off with engine swaps, pizza, or beer!) Of course, that can all vary, too.
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Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Friday, March 12, 2004 10:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago.


"What you talkin' about Willis!!!"

Alright Big Boy 4005 - Spill the beans; who are you?

Dude, you spent $250,000 on a layout - WOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets hear the details. What's it like to build a layout like that? Can we all help with the next one?[:D][:D][:D]


The story can be found in the pages of MR and CTT. Read my profile for which issues. If anyone wants to help with the new layout and lives near by, drop me an email, and we can discuss it.

The hourly rate is nil, but the rewards of learning and experience could be much greater than money. Of course I won't let you starve if you decide to help.

Who remembers the story of the Little Red Hen, the one who baked the bread?
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Posted by Roadtrp on Friday, March 12, 2004 10:54 PM
I've got about $600 invested in my layout, and I would consider it a pretty decent 'starter layout'. The initial expenditure was a 2003 Christmas gift from my wife. It included:

N scale Life Like F40PH locomotive, 4 Bachmann passenger cars, small oval track, power supply and hook-up wire. $150.00

Since then I've spent about $450 as follows:

Turnouts $75
Track $50
Scenery materials $45
Structures $70
Operating accessories $45
Life Like GP38-2 Locomotive $25
Freight rolling stock (8 cars) $110
Extruded Foam Board $15
Liquid Nails for Projects/Foam Board $10
Caulk gun for the Liquid Nails $5

There is an endless amount of work that I want to do on my layout, as is probably the case with anyone's layout. But I think I have a starter layout that covers, at least minimally, the basics.

For the uninitiated, it looks pretty darned nice. We had some furniture delivered last week, and the delivery guys saw my layout and went nuts. They told my wife that I had done a really great job, and went on an on about it.

I took that with a grain of salt, figuring they had never seen model trains before except maybe a Christmas train set. For most of the folks here it would probably rate a D+ at best. But it was neat to hear that the first people who had seen my layout outside my family thought it was pretty nice.

[:)][:)]
-Jerry
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Posted by AggroJones on Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:21 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith
Couple of months? try a couple of DAYS,

Some newbies are completely baffled by the fact that they can't get the whole dam layout straight out of a 4' x 8' cardboard box, open the legs, plug it in, put the trains on the track and start running.
I have heard someone complaining about those becuase they thought that everything would be already done just like the advertisment shows, they didnt want to be bothered with any of the actual "work" of building a layout.



True. Too many people want instant gratification.

"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"

EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION

http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588

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Posted by CBQ_Guy on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:35 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

Personally, that's why I think MR and other magazines never discuss the cost as I think it would discourage a lot of people before they ever got started.



Actually, they have. At least MR had an article, I believe written by one of the staffers, in the 1990's(?). He gave a justification and comparison to other household areas in the budget. Don't recall the details but I thought it was pretty interesting to read.
"Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~
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Posted by dano99a on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:20 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen

I got into HO gauge in 1952. Back then, if you wanted something really nice you had to scratch build it. I still like to scratch build and it has kept my hobby expenditures under control more or less. My records show I have averaged spending $200 per year for 52 years, a total of $10,400. If I smoked 1 pack of cigarettes a day I would spend around $2,500 per year. If I purchased a hamburger for lunch every workday, I would spend approximately $2,000 per year in todays economy. The money I have spent on the hobby is a mere pitance when compared to the joy and satisfaction the hobby has returned to me.. I simply want to point out that there are options in this hobby that can reduce the amount of money you need to spend. On the other hand, if you have unlimited funds, then go for it and purchase all that neat ready to run stuff on the market, or even have your layout constructed for you. Just have fun along the way. After all, it is just a hobby.

Tom



AMEN!! [:)]

Scratch building is the way to go. I'd endorse that before buying a kit, now I've bought my fair share of them but I still scratch build by default. I'll even find ways to do the scenery on the cheap as well and I still get museum quality results.

Examples:
You can buy a bag of sand (yes sand, the darker colored stuff) for balast and it costs FAR less and you get A LOT more of it than buying the prepackaged ballast from woodland scenics (which I still think is too big in HO scale).

I spend the spring and summer going on walks with my wife and pick up twigs all over the place of various sizes. I buy the largest bag of clump foliage. and a can of 3M 33 Super adhesive, and makes trees.

I still think the pink and blue foam and a thing of liquid nails goes a longer way than buying bag after bag of plaster for making hills and what not, and it's a lot more fun to work with too (makes a mess though)

Sawdust can be dyed to any color (GREEN) to make ground covering.

Save on the scenery put the money where it's needed the most:
1- Track (DON'T BUY USED, get Nickel Silver)
2- Locomotive Power ( A good DC or DCC power supply)
3- GOOD locomotives (they aren't cheap but there is a reason for it)
4- Metal wheels for your rolling stock
5- 2 different types of track cleaners

Take the track out of the list above and buy 1 of each and a box 100 metal wheels and your looking at around $500 and up, BUT who said you have to buy it all at once.

I started with a cheapy power pack just to get the track laid-out, I had 1 good loco and no track cleaner and no metal wheels. over the course of 4 years I've covered off on all the above. Now I just work on scenery. [:)]

DANO
C&O lives on!!!  
Visit my railfan community site: http://www.crtraincrew.com

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Posted by Budliner on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 4:07 PM
Originally posted by brothaslide


[ A $1000 this month a $1000 next
so if I go over its a job
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Posted by CNJ831 on Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:44 AM
I have to say that of all the posts presented here so far, the figure JeffBrauer quotes, based on something he read in a magazine, of $125 per square foot is indeed ballpark for most _moderate to advanced_ well detailed layouts. I know this is pretty close to what I'm spending on my own current 3rd or 4th layout.

On the other hand, I expect newbies are likely to be rather less critical in their detailing when following any 4x8 project layout plan taken directly from the pages of MR. As such, perhaps a figure about half of what Jeffbrauer indicates, say $50-$60 per square foot, would be more realistic for a modest DC powered set-up with two locomotives, a few cars, plus nicely done track and scenery (i.e. $1750 as the absolute minimum).

I'd also suggest that this lack of published hard figures often leads newbies to attempt first layouts well beyond the Beginners' range; those that are far too large and complex for their finances. Ultimately this can lead them to giving up at the Plywood Pacific stage as funds run out and to walking away from the hobby in complete frustration. Unlike us old hands at the hobby, newbies can neither be expected to wait years to complete a nice layout, nor can they cannibalize previous extensive efforts in order to save large sums of money.

CNJ831
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Posted by conford on Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:08 PM
I have a 4x8 layout that I sometimes display at GATS. People ask me what it cost, and I say I really don't know. I tell them that if you want to build a layout, then estimate how much a month you can afford to spend on it, and start building. A couple thousand for a small layout isn't unreasonable. I figure I spend about $100 a month on the hobby, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Despite George Sebastian Coleman's good intentions, the recent $500 layout seems to prove that a small layout build inexpensively will cost more than $500 if it is to be satisfactory. The layout looks nice, but has little operating potential (and I'm being generous) and the buildings are made of paper. Now I've used a few paper buildings on layouts, and I'd rather use something more solid.

Want to save money? Start small and identify your geographic area and historical era so as to avoid unnecessary purchases.

Spell checked by hand.

Regards,
Peter
Modeling Grand Rapids Michigan, C&O, PRR and NYC operations circa 1958.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:17 PM
So far I`ve spent over a hundred on track at least a hundred on electric switches 65 bucks for a table ,foam,just an engine 85bucks .I would really recomend buying a good engine to start with so it breaksdown $100
$100
$65
$85 and i haven`t even started on buildings or scenery!
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:09 PM
I wouldn't dare estimate what I've spent on this hobby over the last 12 years[:0], but I decided[^] to build layouts for other people[:D], so I could get paid [:D]to do what I love to do[:D] !! Isn't America [:D]GREAT[:D]?[:D]?!!!![^]
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Posted by goodness on Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:08 PM
I do not think it is an unreasonable "casual" question for people to ask. There have been some excelent replyes so far. It does depend on what gauge you are dealing with, the size of the layout, and what is included. I do O and have done both small and large layouts of different types. I have always kept an inventory that among other things lists what I pay for the items and gives me a "total cost".

I know you can build a "starter" layout for $500 to $1,000 and they can be nice. Obviously you can spend more for more. $60/sq ft for a large layout is possible but you could also spend $160. Or you could spend $10/sq ft and still have a satisfying layout (Lots of plywood and track and a low end train). You can even buy a starter set and run it on the floor for $150 and still have "fun". I sometimes think people who ask casual questions really are just making idle conversation and your reply probably won't really sway them one way or another because they aren't going to do anything anyways. They aren't going to buy the Corvett, the Harley, or the "executive estate" either but they still ask "what did it cost". They are making conversation.

A person who is asking the question "seriously" can calculate their own answer by making up a material list and priceing out "their idea of a layout" by looking in CTT, OGR, MR and other magazines. The personal computer and spread sheets like xcell makes this rather easy to do. And if they can't find the prices in the magazines, there are all the websights. This is the best way for someone to find out what it will cost to buy what they want because it will be very accurate and specific.

If someone asks me what "that" layout cost, and I built it, I know what it cost and it doesn't bother me to tell them the trueth. But I always tell them to make out their own materials list of what they want and add it up. Simple questions do not always have simple answers....some times it takes some work on the part of the questioner to come up with an answer.

Paul Goodness
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Posted by robengland on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:10 PM
I was thinking about Model Railroader's approach to talking about costs. I have two thoughts. Andy, I know you read these :-)

First, I do think MR could state what it would cost to build each of the many project layouts they feature. Their cost must be available - I bet it is budgeted. Then there would be an allowance for stuff MR already had on hand, and the extra cost to a newbie of buying tools. Likewise the total hours involved. This would be invaluable for giving newbies a perspective

Second, I'd like to see MR take a more consumer-oriented position. For example, I'd like to see product reviews being more explicit on whether the product represents value for money. If it is overpriced or a bargain, say so. I'd like to see articles around cost comparisons. Which is a better deal - a Bachmann Spectrum with SoundTraxx or the equivalent Broadway Limited. How to approach building a fleet of steam: the budget, average and premium strategies. OK handlaying track is cheaper, but what are the figures, so I can decide what an hour of my time will save me (I buy Tillig track and I reckon it is close enough to handlaid to suit me).


A thought about costs, not directed at MR. Engineers and architects have a saying when getting customers requirements: "Quick, cheap, good. Pick any two". You can always keep the costs down so long as you compromise on one of the other variables. Most model railroaders (at least those who make it into MR) choose to yield on time not quality.


Finally, a personal perspective. Me I am impatient, so I'm going for fast and good. Lots of RTR, shortcuts and convenience products. But fast is still a relative term: a three year project instead of ten. I'm budgeting about US$3k in this first year declining later to say $1k per year, to build 40 square feet. As other people have pointed out, it ain't that much when my friends hobbies include race mountain bikes, go wind surfing, race 4WDs, collect samurai armour, holiday in Thailand every year, have their own LAN and UNIX servers at home, built a recording studio, learn to fly.... You get my point
Rob Proud owner of the a website sharing my model railroading experiences, ideas and resources.
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Posted by brothaslide on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by goodness

I sometimes think people who ask casual questions really are just making idle conversation and your reply probably won't really sway them one way or another because they aren't going to do anything anyways. They aren't going to buy the Corvett, the Harley, or the "executive estate" either but they still ask "what did it cost". They are making conversation.

A person who is asking the question "seriously" can calculate their own answer by making up a material list and priceing out "their idea of a layout" by looking in CTT, OGR, MR and other magazines.

....some times it takes some work on the part of the questioner to come up with an answer.

Paul Goodness

The majority of these posts on this message board are just casual conversation, it's meant to be that way- sort of virtually shooting the breez amongst model railroaders. That's the point of this message board. Regarding this topic, I think some reacted a bit negatively and with some guilt about perhaps spending a bit too much money. Personally, I think some people do spend way too much time and money on hobbies (what ever the hobby is). I've spent too much time and money on things and regreted it later. Personally, I feel if you take too much time and money away from the spouse and kids, that's just wrong. If you fall into that category, then change. If you don't fall into that cagtegory, enjoy the hobby.

Sean
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Posted by douginut on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:27 PM
For the moment NO layout, but the last one cost under 300 dollars.
RTR is instant gratificatin for sure but building it alittle at a time ofver a great length of time is CONSTANT GRATIFICATION. Each layout I have built over the years and 11 N-Track modules of my own have each been a great release from the day's work troubles, a shared moment with my family, and escape to a world of my own making. Thinking about it the last layout cost me, 7 dollars for a 36 inch damaged hollow core door, 32 dollars for the blue foam in one inch thichness (4 4x8 sheets) 36 dollars for the nscale flex track, 18 used n-scale switches of dubious ancestry at 4 bucks each, used tech 2 power at 10 bucks , ten cartridges of that non foam eating liquid nails for projects,. worked after a fashion for a while and impressed the local kids and their dads. got too frustrated with the running qualities and dismantled it.

Doug in Utah
Doug, in UtaH
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:24 AM
When I started my HO layout in 1997 I decided to go first class on everything. I also kept a spreadsheet on the cost for insurance purposes. Believe me when I say my wife will never see this sheet until I'm dead. Currently I'm just over the $65,000 mark and not willing to stop any time soon. Latest purchase BLI T1.

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