QUOTE: Originally posted by goodness I sometimes think people who ask casual questions really are just making idle conversation and your reply probably won't really sway them one way or another because they aren't going to do anything anyways. They aren't going to buy the Corvett, the Harley, or the "executive estate" either but they still ask "what did it cost". They are making conversation. A person who is asking the question "seriously" can calculate their own answer by making up a material list and priceing out "their idea of a layout" by looking in CTT, OGR, MR and other magazines. ....some times it takes some work on the part of the questioner to come up with an answer. Paul Goodness
Originally posted by brothaslide [ A $1000 this month a $1000 next so if I go over its a job Reply dano99a Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Columbus, OH 492 posts Posted by dano99a on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:20 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen I got into HO gauge in 1952. Back then, if you wanted something really nice you had to scratch build it. I still like to scratch build and it has kept my hobby expenditures under control more or less. My records show I have averaged spending $200 per year for 52 years, a total of $10,400. If I smoked 1 pack of cigarettes a day I would spend around $2,500 per year. If I purchased a hamburger for lunch every workday, I would spend approximately $2,000 per year in todays economy. The money I have spent on the hobby is a mere pitance when compared to the joy and satisfaction the hobby has returned to me.. I simply want to point out that there are options in this hobby that can reduce the amount of money you need to spend. On the other hand, if you have unlimited funds, then go for it and purchase all that neat ready to run stuff on the market, or even have your layout constructed for you. Just have fun along the way. After all, it is just a hobby. Tom AMEN!! [:)] Scratch building is the way to go. I'd endorse that before buying a kit, now I've bought my fair share of them but I still scratch build by default. I'll even find ways to do the scenery on the cheap as well and I still get museum quality results. Examples: You can buy a bag of sand (yes sand, the darker colored stuff) for balast and it costs FAR less and you get A LOT more of it than buying the prepackaged ballast from woodland scenics (which I still think is too big in HO scale). I spend the spring and summer going on walks with my wife and pick up twigs all over the place of various sizes. I buy the largest bag of clump foliage. and a can of 3M 33 Super adhesive, and makes trees. I still think the pink and blue foam and a thing of liquid nails goes a longer way than buying bag after bag of plaster for making hills and what not, and it's a lot more fun to work with too (makes a mess though) Sawdust can be dyed to any color (GREEN) to make ground covering. Save on the scenery put the money where it's needed the most: 1- Track (DON'T BUY USED, get Nickel Silver) 2- Locomotive Power ( A good DC or DCC power supply) 3- GOOD locomotives (they aren't cheap but there is a reason for it) 4- Metal wheels for your rolling stock 5- 2 different types of track cleaners Take the track out of the list above and buy 1 of each and a box 100 metal wheels and your looking at around $500 and up, BUT who said you have to buy it all at once. I started with a cheapy power pack just to get the track laid-out, I had 1 good loco and no track cleaner and no metal wheels. over the course of 4 years I've covered off on all the above. Now I just work on scenery. [:)] DANOC&O lives on!!! Visit my railfan community site: http://www.crtraincrew.com Reply CBQ_Guy Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: North Central Illinois 1,458 posts Posted by CBQ_Guy on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:35 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide Personally, that's why I think MR and other magazines never discuss the cost as I think it would discourage a lot of people before they ever got started. Actually, they have. At least MR had an article, I believe written by one of the staffers, in the 1990's(?). He gave a justification and comparison to other household areas in the budget. Don't recall the details but I thought it was pretty interesting to read. "Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~ Reply AggroJones Member sinceJuly 2002 From: California 3,722 posts Posted by AggroJones on Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Couple of months? try a couple of DAYS, Some newbies are completely baffled by the fact that they can't get the whole dam layout straight out of a 4' x 8' cardboard box, open the legs, plug it in, put the trains on the track and start running. I have heard someone complaining about those becuase they thought that everything would be already done just like the advertisment shows, they didnt want to be bothered with any of the actual "work" of building a layout. True. Too many people want instant gratification. "Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses" EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588 Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Friday, March 12, 2004 10:54 PM I've got about $600 invested in my layout, and I would consider it a pretty decent 'starter layout'. The initial expenditure was a 2003 Christmas gift from my wife. It included: N scale Life Like F40PH locomotive, 4 Bachmann passenger cars, small oval track, power supply and hook-up wire. $150.00 Since then I've spent about $450 as follows: Turnouts $75 Track $50 Scenery materials $45 Structures $70 Operating accessories $45 Life Like GP38-2 Locomotive $25 Freight rolling stock (8 cars) $110 Extruded Foam Board $15 Liquid Nails for Projects/Foam Board $10 Caulk gun for the Liquid Nails $5 There is an endless amount of work that I want to do on my layout, as is probably the case with anyone's layout. But I think I have a starter layout that covers, at least minimally, the basics. For the uninitiated, it looks pretty darned nice. We had some furniture delivered last week, and the delivery guys saw my layout and went nuts. They told my wife that I had done a really great job, and went on an on about it. I took that with a grain of salt, figuring they had never seen model trains before except maybe a Christmas train set. For most of the folks here it would probably rate a D+ at best. But it was neat to hear that the first people who had seen my layout outside my family thought it was pretty nice. [:)][:)] -Jerry Reply Big_Boy_4005 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: St Paul, MN 6,218 posts Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Friday, March 12, 2004 10:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago. "What you talkin' about Willis!!!" Alright Big Boy 4005 - Spill the beans; who are you? Dude, you spent $250,000 on a layout - WOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets hear the details. What's it like to build a layout like that? Can we all help with the next one?[:D][:D][:D] The story can be found in the pages of MR and CTT. Read my profile for which issues. If anyone wants to help with the new layout and lives near by, drop me an email, and we can discuss it. The hourly rate is nil, but the rewards of learning and experience could be much greater than money. Of course I won't let you starve if you decide to help. Who remembers the story of the Little Red Hen, the one who baked the bread? I'm back! Follow the progress: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 9:33 PM I looked into the cost of professional layout building a few years ago out of curiosity. The going rate for an HO scale for a fully scenicked layout was aobut $450 per square foot, with N a bit higher. That could go higher for things like urban scenery, which explains the MSI $1000/SF. I also saw in one of the magazines an estimate that materials only for most layouts comes in at about $125 per square foot. No surprise that the labor component is really huge when you have someone else build the layout for you (excluding friends who can be bought off with engine swaps, pizza, or beer!) Of course, that can all vary, too. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:53 PM Now there's a question to ponder! I remember the days when I actually kept every single receipt for every purchase I made. What was I thinking? Was I going to weep over them at a later date??? NOT! But back to your question brothaslide, I'd guest that a large, private layout would range anywhere from $30 - $70K. There are so many variables to consider, I'm probably on the low side of things. Reply Edit brothaslide Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Southern California 743 posts Posted by brothaslide on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:51 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago. "What you talkin' about Willis!!!" Alright Big Boy 4005 - Spill the beans; who are you? Dude, you spent $250,000 on a layout - WOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets hear the details. What's it like to build a layout like that? Can we all help with the next one?[:D][:D][:D] Reply Big_Boy_4005 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: St Paul, MN 6,218 posts Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:17 PM The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago. That entire space was 2000 square feet, but some of that space was not part of the layout. But as mentioned before there was labor cost involved to produce that layout. My new layout may not cost much at all. Even building from the ground up, most of the material is recycled from previous layouts, especially the one at the mall. I have lumber that is almost 30 years old, that is being used for the fourth or fifth time. I will have to buy some stuff, but not much.[banghead][swg] I'm back! Follow the progress: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1 Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Friday, March 12, 2004 5:39 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a given entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag. CNJ831 Couple of months? try a couple of DAYS, Some newbies are completely baffled by the fact that they can't get the whole dam layout straight out of a 4' x 8' cardboard box, open the legs, plug it in, put the trains on the track and start running. You know those N guage plastic ready made bases that you mount sectional track and scenery to. I have heard someone complaining about those becuase they thought that everything would be already done just like the advertisment shows, they didnt want to be bothered with any of the actual "work" of building a layout. I explain to those who express any interest that this is very much a long term hobby, You cant get it overnight (even custon layout builders take a while to finish). this is a turn off to many who like Faruka Salt say " I want it NOW, Daddy, I want it NOWWWWW!!!!" An example from another hobby... RC aircraft have moved to RTR with a speed that to me is frightening. No one wants to bothered with actually "learning" how to build the plane they are going to fly. Bad for the hobby, IMO, they get the plane RTR but dont have any understanding about what makes it tick, no glide testing, no trim modifications, no clue what will make it fly well, All those things that allow a builder to know a plane and help to fly it successfully the first time up are not learned, so 30 seconds after takeoff when it nosedives into the ground they blame the plane and not the pilot. I tell people to Sloooowly buy the things that will make up their layout, spread out the cost over several months, dont binge buy everything. Think about each purchase, dont start buying scenery before track is layed (unless its a really good sale) Also plan where they want to put the layout, even to prop up boxes & cardboard sheets of the approriate size of the layout they are planning to see if it is in a workable area, doesnt cause hardships getting to it or around it, right hieght etc all before they start putting together the 1st 1x's of benchwork (or 4x8 sheet of plywood). Have fun with your trains Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Friday, March 12, 2004 5:22 PM Masonjar - With regard to the individuals I observed, the first were a couple. When they saw the figures they looked at each other and simply left without a word. In the second instance the person did involve himself in a brief discussion with the shop owner about the prices but quickly added that such a cost was rediculous for building something so small (4x8) and then left . Concerning your correct statement that there is no _typical_ layout, I was implying the building of the typical entry-level layouts that appear in the pages of MR, RMC, et al. Such project layouts most certainly have a well determined price tag from those involved in their step-by-step construction for the article. Such a price guide was done singularly for that $500 layout that appeared in MR but I feel it should be standard for any such presentation where some readers are anticipated to build along with each installment of the construction articles. Since every major facet of putting together each of these project layouts is usually addressed in the text (locos & rolling stock, track & roadbed, power supply, scenery materials, even the lumber) there is no reason that the general costs couldn't be cited. In many instances it might assist newbies in choosing just which layout project to attempt - whether it is within their means or not. As I indicated in my previous post, ours is the only hobby I know where estimated start-up costs are generally hidden from the newbie. CNJ831 Reply rogerhensley Member sinceJune 2001 From: Anderson Indiana 1,301 posts Posted by rogerhensley on Friday, March 12, 2004 5:12 PM Let me add that there is no secret about what I have in my layout. I probably have about $3,000 to $3,500 US. The figure is absolutely meaningless. Divide that by 23 years and , worse case, you have $152 a year. That's a hobby that anyone can get into. But I didn't build it all in 6 weeks! I once owned a train hobby shop and started a number of folks, many of whom are still modeling today. I told each and every one of them to start with a basic plan and work toward what they wanted. I also told them that what they wanted would probably change so don't consider the first layout to be their ultimate layout. That''s honesty at work. I also showed them how to get into the hobby at different price levels. That's what is required, not just laying out a price list of parts and scaring the newcomer senseless until they run out the door. That's a lost sale and a loss to the hobby. Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ = Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 2:05 PM The problem with providing a price tag for a "typcial" layout, even a standard 4x8 is that there is no typical layout. 1) There are so many different ways of doing things - do you give the "kit" price - built it all yourself with free lumber, scratch-built everything out of home-cut lumber, or the built-up buildings and ready to run locos and rolling stock? 2) What is the typical layout - running brass, plastic, how many locos? What kind of control. DC with one loco is a lot less costly that DCC with 5 or 6 locos, but both are possible on a 4x8. The best thing about this hobby is you can approach it with whatever means you have, and concentrate on whatever aspect interests you. Quoting a price for a layout does do a disservice to the newbie, because it tell him or her nothing about the assumptions the shop owner (or whoever) is making when giving the quote. CNJ831 - did the people who were suffered sticker shock in that particular shop get a chance to discuss how or why the cost(s) might be so high? Did the owner talk to them about their interests? For myself, I have found that building and weathering structures is the most interesting part (at least right now) with operations way down the list. Consequently, I spend my hobby $$$ on building kits, but not on locos - and I am having a great time. Andrew Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 12, 2004 1:47 PM I am a perfect example of a newbie (I have been to train shows, and have a memory of a layout from my youth, but I have never built a layout of my own). I would MUCH rather know getting into a hobby that it is not something I can afford at first, then waiting to figure that out for myself months (and dollars) later. I am a supporter of the idea that the more information you can give someone, the better decision you allow them to make for themselves. Reply Edit MAbruce Member sinceNovember 2001 From: US 1,720 posts Posted by MAbruce on Friday, March 12, 2004 1:38 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a give entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag. CNJ831 It's more than just defining the cost in money; it's also the time one needs to spend. Material costs can vary as some of it can be offset by building your own items (which is getting harder to do in today’s RTR environment), but who has that much time?? Either way, when people (particularly “newbies”) look at those wondrous layouts in MR, that they can be grossly mislead. The simple truth is (for most of us) the layouts we covet as examples to shoot for are in reality hopelessly out of our range! I can see why RR SIM’s are popular! Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Friday, March 12, 2004 1:03 PM I have to take exception to rogerhensley's position that, "To throw around a dollar figure does a terrible disservice to the hobby." Any newcomer to the hobby deserves an honest answer when asking how much a typical layout costs because there is little or no reference to the answer in the hobby literature. I agree that, spread over the course of many years, the cost of our hobby does not have to be all that great. However, newbies want to build a complete first layout over just a couple of months - not years - and this is quite a different matter, with the total cost becoming very relevant. On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a given entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag. CNJ831 Reply AggroJones Member sinceJuly 2002 From: California 3,722 posts Posted by AggroJones on Friday, March 12, 2004 12:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth. $1000 a month!? Thats my modelling buget for a few years! "Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses" EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588 Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Friday, March 12, 2004 12:10 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth. That way after 20 years you don't notice that you've spent a quarter million dollars on your hobby.[:D][:D] Paul 1000 BUCKS !!!! Look Mr Rockefeller if I EVER spent that in a month, you'd be seeing stories on the news of and Unidentified Flying Object heading straight for the moon that appaered to be a Irishman with a boot lodged in his derrier! Have fun with your trains Reply rogerhensley Member sinceJune 2001 From: Anderson Indiana 1,301 posts Posted by rogerhensley on Friday, March 12, 2004 6:38 AM As Ironrooster, what I've done has been over 22 or 23 years and I can say that it doesn't matter how much I've spent. I never take away from the family and when I had it, I would get what my railroad needed. I do draw the line at the terribly overpriced R-T-R locos and cars of today, but that is my choice. Now, a comment. I really hate to see the "What did it cost?" or "I spent x amount for this" (spoken with pride). Some folks can put a lot of money into a layout while others put in a lot of time.To throw around a dollar figure does a terrible disservice to he hobby. It does nothing more than scare away new people from starting their layout. because they are afraid that it is too expensive. Maybe it would be if you laid out all of the money at one time, but not over a period of 20 years!! Some of these large fantastic layouts are not the work of one person, but of serveral helping out over a long period of time. How do you figure that? Why do you want to? Sorry, but I put this into the same category of, "I spent 400 hours on this model." Nice, but it doesn't mean anything unless you want to build exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. I have some nice models that I scratchbuilt or kitbashed and I'll guarantee that I didn't take hundreds of hours. My attention span is not that long. :-) Ciao. Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ = Reply 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen I got into HO gauge in 1952. Back then, if you wanted something really nice you had to scratch build it. I still like to scratch build and it has kept my hobby expenditures under control more or less. My records show I have averaged spending $200 per year for 52 years, a total of $10,400. If I smoked 1 pack of cigarettes a day I would spend around $2,500 per year. If I purchased a hamburger for lunch every workday, I would spend approximately $2,000 per year in todays economy. The money I have spent on the hobby is a mere pitance when compared to the joy and satisfaction the hobby has returned to me.. I simply want to point out that there are options in this hobby that can reduce the amount of money you need to spend. On the other hand, if you have unlimited funds, then go for it and purchase all that neat ready to run stuff on the market, or even have your layout constructed for you. Just have fun along the way. After all, it is just a hobby. Tom
DANOC&O lives on!!! Visit my railfan community site: http://www.crtraincrew.com
QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide Personally, that's why I think MR and other magazines never discuss the cost as I think it would discourage a lot of people before they ever got started.
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Couple of months? try a couple of DAYS, Some newbies are completely baffled by the fact that they can't get the whole dam layout straight out of a 4' x 8' cardboard box, open the legs, plug it in, put the trains on the track and start running. I have heard someone complaining about those becuase they thought that everything would be already done just like the advertisment shows, they didnt want to be bothered with any of the actual "work" of building a layout.
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago. "What you talkin' about Willis!!!" Alright Big Boy 4005 - Spill the beans; who are you? Dude, you spent $250,000 on a layout - WOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets hear the details. What's it like to build a layout like that? Can we all help with the next one?[:D][:D][:D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005 The Mall of America layout cost me close to $250,000, ten years ago.
I'm back!
Follow the progress:
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a given entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag. CNJ831
Have fun with your trains
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 On at least two occasions I've seen newbies come into a hobby shop, a copy of an MR 4x8 track plan hot in hand, and ask for a price on all the listed materials needed to build the layout. When they got the reply they were absolutely stunned and walked out of the store. I would contend that it is unfair not to provide some sort of very rough approximation of the costs for reproducing a give entry-level layout appearring in the magazines. Quite honestly, I know of no other hobby that is so secretive about its price tag. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth.
QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER The trick is to spend it in small chunks. A $1000 this month a $1000 next and so forth. That way after 20 years you don't notice that you've spent a quarter million dollars on your hobby.[:D][:D] Paul