Someone asked me: "why do we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway?" It got me wondering why we model railroaders use the noun "turnout" for a "track switch." I've heard the excuse that we don't want to confuse a track switch with other kinds of switches, such as electrical switches. That's a lame reason!
Model railroaders don't use the term "turnout man" for switchman, nor "turnout machine" for switch machine.
Real railroaders and Webster et. al. use the noun "switch" for what model railroaders call a turnout. The real world defines "turnout" in the transportation context as a widened space in a highway for vehicles to pass or as a railroad siding."
Someone please kick me the next time I use "turnout" when I mean "switch."
Mark
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
from the dictionary:
1.the gathering of persons who come to an exhibition, party, spectacle, or the like: They had a large turnout at the meeting. 2.quantity of production; output. 3.an act of turning out. 4.the manner or style in which a person or thing is equipped, dressed, etc. 5.equipment; outfit. 6.a short side track, space, spur, etc., that enables trains, automobiles, etc., to pass one another or park. 7.Ballet. the turning out of the legs from the hips, with the feet back to back or heel to heel. 8.Railroads. a track structure composed of a switch, a frog, and closure rails, permitting a train to leave a given track for a branching or parallel track. Compare crossover (def. 6). [Origin: 1680–90; n. use of v. phrase turn out] Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Notice number 8 - "a track structure composed of a switch, a frog, and closure rails"
Enjoy
Paul
My Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary, 1970 doesn't have definition 8. Maybe in a couple of decades we'll be using terms like turnout man, turnout machine, and turnout stand.
Turnout is a railroad term referring to the entire assembly: points, frog, guard rails, etc. This is the proper engineering term to use.
Switch is a railroad term referring to the MOVABLE parts of the turnout, ie the points.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Just checked the internet dictionaries. While Wikipedia and Random House include definition 8, American Heritage and Mirriam Webster don't. Doesn't look like model railroad "speak" has completely infiltrated general usage yet.
nbrodar wrote:Turnout is a railroad term referring to the entire assembly: points, frog, guard rails, etc. This is the proper engineering term to use.Switch is a railroad term referring to the MOVABLE parts of the turnout, ie the points.Nick
So I have learned and adopted since joining the forum in 2005.
It makes perfect sense, Mark. The whole shebang allows the turning out of the current track. The mechanism is a "switch.' The switch comprises the throwbar and point rails since they actually change the configuration of the "turnout" to accomplish the intended function.
-Crandell
P.S. - besides, what to we call a Double Pole Double Throw turnout...I mean, switch if we have to call it something else in the hobby?
selector wrote: It makes perfect sense, Mark. The whole shebang allows the turning out of the current track. The mechanism is a "switch.' The switch comprises the throwbar and point rails since they actually change the configuration of the "turnout" to accomplish the intended function.-CrandellP.S. - besides, what to we call a Double Pole Double Throw turnout...I mean, switch if we have to call it something else in the hobby?
OK. If the Department of Transportation uses the term "turnout", I'll accept it as a legitimate railroad term. I have even found a reference to "turnouts" in SP common standard plans of switch (track) diagrams (as in "center siding for double track, trailing point switch" and "...facing point switch"). However, "switch" was ubiquitous, and "turnout" mentioned but once.
"Turnout," comes from the civil engineering side of railroading, referring to everything you'd find inside the blister pack if you bought an Atlas #8 Switch.
"Switch," ("Points," to most of the rest of the world) refers to those parts of the above assembly that can be moved by throwing a switch lever. This is of interest to the operating side of the house - folks who would probably refer to a spade as a shovel and couldn't care less what Engineering or Procurement call it.
Sooo... Why have I never heard anyone refer to a, "Slip turnout," (single or double?) Tiz a pozzlement...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with hand-laid specialwork)
First off you have to define in what context you are using the terms on the real railroad. They also use the terms for various things.
Railroads do not refer to the whole assembly as a turnout (at least not the class one railroads in the western half of the US). The whole assembly is referred to as a "switch' by the operating department. The engineering department considered the "switch' as just the points and associated hardware. If you go to a prototype track components company and order a 'switch', you will get just the points. You cannot order a "turnout" from a prototype track components company.
A turnout is the curved track on the diverging side of the switch. If you read a real rule book it may speak of a speed restriction through the "turnout", that's what they are talking about, the curve or S curve past the frog.
So both switch and turnout are used on real railroads, though not interchangeably.
This comes up every year or so on the various groups, is argued for a while, comes to no definitive conclusion and then dies back down until next year. So if you miss the discussion this year, don't worry it will come back around again.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Here is an informative article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch
PS - This subject just comes up once a year? Some topics seem to pop up almost weekly (curve radii, track grades, etc.)
Turnout back or switch back?
I heard turnout was more of a modelers term. Since we use electrical switches to throw our switches, it got confusing which "switch" someone was talking about.
nbrodar wrote: Turnout is a railroad term referring to the entire assembly: points, frog, guard rails, etc. This is the proper engineering term to use.Switch is a railroad term referring to the MOVABLE parts of the turnout, ie the points.Nick
Thank you, Nick. I was nearing the end of a long reply, pointing out that fact--when our apartment building experienced one of those inexplicable split-second power outages that shut down my computer, wiped out the clock on the VCR/DVD player, and reset my clock/radio/alarm to flashing "2:55pm, 2:55pm, 2:55pm"--and wiped out ten minutes' worth of typing! The clock/radio/alarm was easy to fix: just press the Clock Time button and push the Minutes button pnce, to get it to the correct time. The VCR/DVD player was the usual, complicated mess of Up button, Down button, Right button, and Enter--while time speeds by, forcing more button-pressing.
When I powered up the computer again and went back online, I discovered I'd lost my entire reply, since it hadn't been posted, and rediscovered a phenomenon I discovered the other day! That time, I'd clicked on Reply and started typing when there were only two replies listed, and when I finally posted my reply, I found I was the first reply on Page 2! This time, I'd started when there were only a couple or three replies, and when I finally got back, several people had covered the technicalities of "Turnout vs. Switch" thing.
If I remember correctly, Model Railroader, with Linn Westcott at the helm, had decided that the best way to avoid confusion between track switches and electrical switches was to use the textbook "Switch is the movable part of a Turnout" nomenclature. (Westcott also came up with the term "Q scale" for 1/4"=1', since true O scale is 7mm=1' [ know, it doesn't actually track: Metric and English measure systems!]. That caused a huge controversy, as you can well imagine, and died out later, when MR was the only place the "Q scale" was seen (other magazines promptly started using "Turnout" to avoid confusion).
It didn't bother me, even though I was in O scale myself at the time (I later went back to HO and stayed there until my failing eyesight took me back, in 1993), but one of the yucks I had was the O-scalers themselves, who called themselves "O-gaugers," were the biggest complainers in the "Q scale" controversy. Okay, that seems harmless enough, but until the late '50s-early '60s, the hobby had a habit of calling things "O gauge" and "HO gauge," even when it didn't involve track! Can you imagine how stupid this sounds when you talk about an "O gauge" structure or an "HO gauge" telephone pole? The hobby moved away from this, referring to things by "scale" and leaving "gauge" out of it, but the guys who modeled in 1/4" still called themselves "O-gaugers," even if they modeled narrow gaauge as well.
That is one of my pet peeves about ebay: I use the discrimination feature in my searches to eliminate tinplate or Hi-rail as much as possible, since I model in O scale, but I keep seeing listings for "O, On30, On3" things that have nothing to do with tracks or things that roll on them! We're back to "O/On30/On3 telephone poles" and such again!
Back to "Turnout" and "Switch": real railroads named everything: every track in a yard had a name or number, and every siding or main line turnout had a name, like "Johnson's Siding" or "Charlie's Switch," for instant recognition. So, if it makes you feel better, name all your tracks, sidings, and turnouts and call out, "Switch me to Westcott's Siding," or "Throw the switch for Track 3," instead of yelling "Throw that switch," or (something hardly anyone would do) "Throw that turnout!"
Dean-58
I grew up with the term "switch." I didn't hear "turnout" until about five years ago. In fact, my old American Flyer remote switches had the name "electric switch," as opposed to "manual switch." In the interest of clarity I use "turnout" when confusion may arise because real electrical switches are in the context, as in "Switch A provides control for Turnout 1." This happens more frequently in model RRing than in railfanning on 12 inch = 1 foot scale.
"TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.
An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".
How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
bleh, I tend to use the 2 rather interchangeably..(pun unexpected 8-P)
When you get down to the real dirt identification Turnout is more correct.
I found this gem on the internet one day.
"We've had the "switch" argument many times before, where the guys who line
the thing, build the thing and maintains the thing calls it a "switch" but
the guy in the suit back in the office who's never got his hands dirty
building, maintianing or lining one calls it a "turnout'."
Thank you RogerT. You put it much better than I could.
Ralph H
Don Gibson wrote:"TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).
When referring to my X-wife, I can think of a few...
To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
loathar wrote: Don Gibson wrote: "TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).When referring to my X-wife, I can think of a few...
Don Gibson wrote: "TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).
I'll refer to the rails as a turnout in the context of wiring the devices used to move the points. It's just for clarity. Just like I had always talked about AV hookups naming the connections in the order of the direction the signals are traveling back when I mangled that Radioshaft. When a customer came in there and asked for a switch, I'd stand there and wait. Not long, just waiting to see what they REALLY wanted was going to come out.
markpierce,Of all the things in this hobby, this is what you're concerned about? Turnout vs. switch... Meh. While it might make great fodder for a stand up routine ("Why does cargo go by ship and shipments go by car?" - Gallagher), what's the point of this thread? If it's to point out that real railroaders look down their noses at us for using "buff" terminology, well, that's hardly news. But if we limited ourselves to only using what real railroaders would say, then we couldn't call something a GP9, we'd only say that's one of those 1200's (or whatever number series they were on each RR that had 'em). Oh, well. At least it's better than other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: ... other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
... other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"
Short engineer, with arms wide: "Well, just set the rails about this wide apart and we'll see how it works out."
Paul3 wrote: markpierce,Of all the things in this hobby, this is what you're concerned about? Turnout vs. switch... Meh. While it might make great fodder for a stand up routine ("Why does cargo go by ship and shipments go by car?" - Gallagher), what's the point of this thread? If it's to point out that real railroaders look down their noses at us for using "buff" terminology, well, that's hardly news. But if we limited ourselves to only using what real railroaders would say, then we couldn't call something a GP9, we'd only say that's one of those 1200's (or whatever number series they were on each RR that had 'em). Oh, well. At least it's better than other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Sorry, Paul, but I get more enjoyment out of the hobby when I hear and use the vocabulary of train men.
You can find both turnout and switch used in real rule books.
Switch refers to the parts that move and turnout refers to the curved track beyond the frog.
Turnout is used in this document.
http://www.osp.state.nc.us/CLASS_SPECS/Spec_Folder_08000-08999/PDF_Files/08305.pdf
...and in this one
http://www.lightrail.com/terminology.htm#T
and this one
http://www.srpedd.org/railterm.pdf
as well as this one
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Freight/Rail/terms.htm
and this last one should be the most definitive (p. 34010, Section 213.133 - "Turnouts and Track Crossings Generally")
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/Counsel/fr/tssfr.pdf
Selector,
At midnight it is much too late for me to wade through the Federal Register and similar bureaucratic documents. Also, I spent my 30-year-government career reading and applying the Federal Register. I retired six years ago from that, and don't wish to resume. How about giving us synopses tomorrow? Thanks a bunch.
Mark, the lexicon is in alphabetized lists in most of them...that the term appears should be sufficient for our purposes. Perhaps after a good night's sleep you will feel up to finding the section I cited in the FRA document. I found it myself near midnight. I also provided you with a page number. The numbers appear in bold atop each page, so getting to the relevant part should be easy...after some sleep.
BRAKIE wrote: To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout".
Guess the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway Co. is not a "real railroad" by your defintion. In their Employee Timetable dated January 15, 1989, the term turnout is used dozens of times to refer to the overall structure -- just like model raillroaders use the term.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
This side of the pond we call the whole thing "points" and one of my qualifications on the "Big Train" is as a "Points Operator".
On the ground they are usually refered to by trackmen as "P&C" which is short for "Points and Crossings"
The usual argument over here is whether the "Common Crossing" can be called a "Frog"... I found the debate on this as far back as the 1890s in an engineering journal.
The modernisation of "Switchman" will not be to "Turnoutman" but to "Turnout Operative" or "Turnout Person".