Turnout versus Switch

[steinjr]

Keep in mind that railroaders use their own slang terms, nicknames etc. for things. It could well be that what someone in the railroad's technical engineering dept. calls "a turnout", Joe Brakeman may call "a switch".

 That applies in many languages, I'm sure. In Norwegian, the rule books refer to "sporveksel" ("track changer"). That is the official name - and the one professional railroaders are supposed to use in official documents.

 But lots of people still refer to them as "pens" (which is a Norwegian adaptation/phonetic contraction of the British term "points", which was brought to Norway with Stephenson's people when they built the first RR in Norway back in 1854).

  Also, some these things can have funny nicknames. A double crossover is known among some oldtimers as a "full Englishman". The word "full" can also mean "drunk". Hence the look of total incomprehension you may get when someone apparently says "We have to wait for the drunk Englishman up ahead to get unstuck before we can continue".

 In the context of model railroading, use whatever term (turnout or switch or something else) you like. Your choice of words when communicating on or about a model railroad will not cause loss of human life or limb in case of a misunderstanding. 

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[GraniteRailroader]

To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout". 

Yup.

The only people I hear calling them "turnouts" are either the buffies or the office guys who have never worked a day of "REAL" train service from their desk job.

(This doesn't apply to people that aren't working in the rail industry. Merely talking about the railroad people I encounter on daily basis'. )

--Edit to add--

And Brakie - I know exactly what you mean.

"Pick up the northbounds on track 2, back em off on to track 4, line the 1-2 switch back, pickup the remaining northbounds and the haulage traffic and stick it to track 3."

or...

"Kick one to four, pick up three on five, set two to four, one to six, pickup the rest of four and double it to the main"

Switchlists and paperwork? That's a good way to get one of the veterans of the industry to make you learn by the school of hard knocks

[CTValleyRR]

You know, I was flipping through my dictionary on my way to "switch" and "turnout" and came across this little gem:

ped-ant  /ˈpɛd-nt/ -noun

1.	a person who makes an excessive or inappropriate display of learning.

2.	a person who overemphasizes rules or minor details.

3.	a person who adheres rigidly to book knowledge without regard to common sense.

4.	Obsolete. a schoolmaster.

Thus endeth the sermon!

[HEdward]

It's all a matter of context.  I ask for a left hand switch.  I ask for a wye switch.  I wire the electrical switch to the turnout's switch machine.  I wire the turnout's track in a manner which avoids shorts or breaks.  The turnout term seems to add clarity while layout building, but on the 1:1 railroads, unnesscessary.  So lests all take Brakies advice, leave the turnouts on the models and just call them switches with the full scale operators.  Geez...can we argue about something new now?

[BRAKIE]

Railroad speak.

Larry,the first 3 goes to Slaughter house( No slaughter there!),hang on to your pickups and proceed to the C&O switch and pickup seven there and return the cut to 3.Pick up the Central cut on 5 and take 'em to the Central.

That's the kind of stuff I had to remember as a rookie brakeman on the PRR.

[IRONROOSTER]

And to complicate things further, there are also wyes. 

No complication whatsoever.  A 'wye' is just an equalateral switch.  It describes the geometry just like a left hand and right hand describe the other geometries.

Its just another switch.

Dave H.

Uh....I thought it was a wye turnout

Wye switch? is what everyone asks me when they find out I switched from HO to S.

 

 

 

 

 

I just love the insanity of it all!!!

Paul 

[dehusman]

And to complicate things further, there are also wyes. 

No complication whatsoever.  A 'wye' is just an equalateral switch.  It describes the geometry just like a left hand and right hand describe the other geometries.

Its just another switch.

Dave H.

[HEdward]

Any locomotive operator out there care wether his lead engine is painted with the current scheme or it's as delivered colors?  Again, I use "turnout" when discussing tracks and wiring, but I'm not married to the term.

[wjstix]

Keep in mind that railroaders use their own slang terms, nicknames etc. for things. It could well be that what someone in the railroad's technical engineering dept. calls "a turnout", Joe Brakeman may call "a switch". Similarly there are plenty of model railroader / railfan terms (like "phases" of a diesel's production life) that a working railroader would have no idea about. So there really may not be a complety right answer.

One similar thing that comes up in my work (taxes) is "return", how many people say "I got a big return from the IRS this year" when they mean to say they got a big "refund"...a "return" is the tax form (like a 1040) you file to get the refund.

[ccaranna]

And to complicate things further, there are also wyes.  They aren't even called turnouts or switches, yet they perform the same functions.  So what would you call an employee that handles a wye?  A Wyeman?  Oh, and yeah, there are crossovers, too.

[Midnight Railroader]

markpierce,
Of all the things in this hobby, this is what you're concerned about?  Turnout vs. switch...  Meh.  While it might make great fodder for a stand up routine ("Why does cargo go by ship and shipments go by car?" - Gallagher), what's the point of this thread?  If it's to point out that real railroaders look down their noses at us for using "buff" terminology, well, that's hardly news.  But if we limited ourselves to only using what real railroaders would say, then we couldn't call something a GP9, we'd only say that's one of those 1200's (or whatever number series they were on each RR that had 'em).  Oh, well.  At least it's better than other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Sorry, Paul, but I get more enjoyment out of the hobby when I hear and use the vocabulary of train men.

Mark

There's plenty of evidence that "train men" use and have used the term 'turnout."

Why are you so set against it?

[dehusman]

The cool thing is that this is about the SIXTH or SEVENTH one of these turnout vs. switch threads I have read on the Op Sig, LDSig and Trains.com forums, and each one regardless of location follows a nearly identical pattern of posts.

Its eerie.

Oh, by the way, it hasn't stopped anybody from using either term.  8-)

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout".

Guess the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway Co. is not a "real railroad" by your defintion. In their Employee Timetable dated January 15, 1989, the term turnout is used dozens of times to refer to the overall structure -- just like model raillroaders use the term.

 

 

Well  that may be in the book but,I bet the railroaders call it a switch..Only a rookie train buff trainman would use such a term on the PRR or Chessie and that was never a good idea if they did.

Even today on my scanner I hear the term switch used..

[Dave-the-Train]

Turnout is a railroad term referring to the entire assembly: points, frog, guard rails, etc.  This is the proper engineering term to use.

Switch is a railroad term referring to the MOVABLE parts of the turnout, ie the points.

Nick 

This side of the pond we call the whole thing "points" and one of my qualifications on the "Big Train" is as a "Points Operator".

On the ground they are usually refered to by trackmen as "P&C" which is short for "Points and Crossings"

The usual argument over here is whether the "Common Crossing" can be called a "Frog"... I found the debate on this as far back as the 1890s in an engineering journal.

The modernisation of "Switchman" will not be to "Turnoutman" but to "Turnout Operative" or "Turnout Person".

[cuyama]

To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout".

Guess the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway Co. is not a "real railroad" by your defintion. In their Employee Timetable dated January 15, 1989, the term turnout is used dozens of times to refer to the overall structure -- just like model raillroaders use the term.

 

[selector]

Mark, the lexicon is in alphabetized lists in most of them...that the term appears should be sufficient for our purposes.  Perhaps after a good night's sleep you will feel up to finding the section I cited in the FRA document.  I found it myself near midnight.  I also provided you with a page number.  The numbers appear in bold atop each page, so getting to the relevant part should be easy...after some sleep.

-Crandell

[markpierce]

Selector,

At midnight it is much too late for me to wade through the Federal Register and similar bureaucratic documents.  Also, I spent my 30-year-government career reading and applying the Federal Register.  I retired six years ago from that, and don't wish to resume.  How about giving us synopses tomorrow?  Thanks a bunch.

Mark

[selector]

Turnout is used in this document.

http://www.osp.state.nc.us/CLASS_SPECS/Spec_Folder_08000-08999/PDF_Files/08305.pdf

...and in this one

http://www.lightrail.com/terminology.htm#T

and this one

http://www.srpedd.org/railterm.pdf

as well as this one

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Freight/Rail/terms.htm

and this last one should be the most definitive (p. 34010, Section 213.133 - "Turnouts and Track Crossings Generally")

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/Counsel/fr/tssfr.pdf

 

 

[dehusman]

You can find both turnout and switch used in real rule books. 

Switch refers to the parts that move and turnout refers to the curved track beyond the frog. 

Dave H.

[markpierce]

markpierce,
Of all the things in this hobby, this is what you're concerned about?  Turnout vs. switch...  Meh.  While it might make great fodder for a stand up routine ("Why does cargo go by ship and shipments go by car?" - Gallagher), what's the point of this thread?  If it's to point out that real railroaders look down their noses at us for using "buff" terminology, well, that's hardly news.  But if we limited ourselves to only using what real railroaders would say, then we couldn't call something a GP9, we'd only say that's one of those 1200's (or whatever number series they were on each RR that had 'em).  Oh, well.  At least it's better than other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Sorry, Paul, but I get more enjoyment out of the hobby when I hear and use the vocabulary of train men.

Mark

[HEdward]

... other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Short engineer, with arms wide: "Well, just set the rails about this wide apart and we'll see how it works out."

[Paul3]

markpierce,
Of all the things in this hobby, this is what you're concerned about?  Turnout vs. switch...  Meh.  While it might make great fodder for a stand up routine ("Why does cargo go by ship and shipments go by car?" - Gallagher), what's the point of this thread?  If it's to point out that real railroaders look down their noses at us for using "buff" terminology, well, that's hardly news.  But if we limited ourselves to only using what real railroaders would say, then we couldn't call something a GP9, we'd only say that's one of those 1200's (or whatever number series they were on each RR that had 'em).  Oh, well.  At least it's better than other round of "Why is standard guage 4' 8 1/2"?"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[HEdward]

"TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.

An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts  (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".

How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).

When referring to my X-wife, I can think of a few...

The rest of us have never referred to your ex.  I suppose that's better that way.

I'll refer to the rails as a turnout in the context of wiring the devices used to move the points.  It's just for clarity.  Just like I had always talked about AV hookups naming the connections in the order of the direction the signals are traveling back when I mangled that Radioshaft.  When a customer came in there and asked for a switch, I'd stand there and wait.  Not long, just waiting to see what they REALLY wanted was going to come out.   

[BRAKIE]

To real railroad men its a switch...And being a former brakeman I can't call 'em a "turnout".

 

[loathar]

"TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.

An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts  (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".

How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).

When referring to my X-wife, I can think of a few...

[espee3004]

I found this gem on the internet one day.

 

"We've had the "switch" argument many times before, where the guys who line

the thing, build the thing and maintains the thing calls it a "switch" but

the guy in the suit back in the office who's never got his hands dirty

building, maintianing or lining one calls it a "turnout'."

Thank you RogerT. You put it much better than I could.

Ralph H

 

 

[dinwitty]

bleh, I tend to use the 2 rather interchangeably..(pun unexpected  8-P)

When you get down to the real dirt identification Turnout is more correct. 

[R. T. POTEET]

If your nose runs and your feet smell it can only mean one thing: you are built upside down!

You can go back through every response I have made on this subject on the forum in the twenty-five months I have been a member and I have never used the term "turnout" - to me it is a "switch" - don't ask me why; it's just a switch.

[Don Gibson]

"TURNOUT" is merely a substitute word for "switch" in 'model RR' jargon despite sub-definitions or justifications for it's existance.

An electrical 'switch' diverts direction - point A to B - same as a RR one. COMPLICATED turnouts  (Single and Double Slip) are still referred to as "Switches".

How many different English words are there to refer to 'female'? (Careful).