Is this hobby becoming too expensive?

[Anonymous]

MR is higher than magazines in other fields.  Many of these want high circulation for higher advertsing rates so they keep their subscription rates low.  There's a lot more folks playing computer games than building model railroads so that works for PCGamer and others.  Personally, I enjoy MR and get more out of it than I do PCGamer.

S Gaugian is $36 a year for 6 issues each a lot smaller than MR.  It also has a much smaller circulation than MR.  But it's all S so it's worth it to me. 

Enjoy

Paul 

 

This is the point I was making when I complained last week about the high cost of model railroading.  I think its expensive, and I don't like that.  HOWEVER, I completely understand why it is expensive.  It really is not that popular a hobby.  In order for companies to make a profit they need to charge more $$$$.  And I'm not comparing the hobby now to any other time in history.  I am not speaking of the cost relative to 20 years ago, 30 years ago, or whatever.  I am only 28 years old.  When I say I think it is expensive, I mean I feel that some, repeat SOME, of the items (like turnouts) cost way more than what it actually takes to make them.  I understand that there are research and development costs.  I work in the Pharma industry and believe me I know how much is spent on R & D.  But, I really don't think there has been any revolutionary new concepts applied to turnouts.  I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone will call me on it.

Just my opinion,

Smitty

[on30francisco]

I get my PC Gamer Magazine for $19.95 a year, but that is also the teaser price. Cover price on the things are $8.95 ea. And you can find subscriptions to MR and things cheaper if you browse the net. MR's website subscription is $42, but I found a clearing house selling the subscription for $24. I can easily stomach that.

I have used some of those clearing houses to subscribe to magazines and have never had any problems with missing issues or anything else.

[Autobus Prime]

I would really like a EL SDP45 or 2. But with the price of even plastic models today I am horribly afriad to trust my dubious kitbashing skills.

td:

Well, get them un-dubious with some practice.  Find something you can kitbash from old swap-meet stuff.  It's cheap, and if it goes sour you at least get experience for the next one.  You can't let fear hold you back.  There's always going to be stuff nobody is making, or that nobody can get because it is some preorder-only hyper-limited awesome exclusive thing...

You could...

...make an old Lifelike F40PH into a "cabbage".

...cut down an AHM SD40 into a slug unit.

...convert a B-unit F into a heater car

...make some Geep B-units,

etc. All of these would be easy, cheap, and possibly usable items that would help you become a skilled kitbasher, and bring that SD45 project within reach.

 

[andrechapelon]

This will be my one and only post to this thread.  The price of a subscription to MR is quite high compared to other magazines.  I couldn't believe the price for a years subscription.  It is two to three times higher than other magazines I subscribe to.

If you think that MR is expensive, try subscribing to an overseas model magazine.  My subscription to Tetsudo Mokei Shumi costs me +- $200/year - more than some other people spend on the entire hobby!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Doesn't that just make you wish for the Good Old Days when the Yen was about 633 to the dollar and you could buy a brand new Datsun 510 for just a shade over $2000 out the door?

Remember the Honda 50, that "groovy little motor bike"? The one that sold for about $220 or so in the mid 60's?

Andre - waxing nostalgic and getting off-topic

[AltoonaRailroader]

Although Walthers does sell items at sale and MSRP prices direct to the consumer, since Walthers is also a supplier to almost every train shop in the US, they are aware that they can't really sell at "street" prices because then they would be competing against their own customers... the train shops who use Walthers as a distributor. So they generally sell at MSRP. Largeness doesn't really have anything to do with volume and pricing in this case.

Ahhhh, that does make sense. I used to deal with a computer parts distributor and they wouldn't sell you direct just because they'd be competing with their own customers. Thanks for explaining that.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

[IRONROOSTER]

...

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

I think I'll need an airplane hangar layout to use it all.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Autobus Prime]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

B:

Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much.  Let's see...

Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.

New track - Total $25

2 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joiners

Used track - Total $7:

1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track
1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.

Reused track - Total about $30
Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.

Powerpack - Total $15:

1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5
Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10

Equipment - Total about $43 :

(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)

Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago.  Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.
(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don't
remember what kind of tape player the motor came from.  I tend to compulsively scrap
every failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There are
other ways to get cheap, good-running steam.  You can get great deals at train shows
if you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)

Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.

OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.

50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show

40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show

(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks.  I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.
Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)

Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.

Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.

So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.

 

 

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Let's look at it another way..One can enjoy model railroading with say 2 locomotives,a hand full of cars and then join a local club.By buying at discount I would say less then $600.00 will put you in the hobby..No club? Then another $1200.00 should cover a Industrial Switching Layout or  4x8 footer.So,by going with "less is better" you need not spend a small fortune.

Of course and speaking from my own experience we all tend to buy far more then we will ever need or can use.

B:

Goodness, you don't even have to spend nearly that much.  Let's see...

Table, built from 1/2" CDX plywood, 2 x 3 legs, 1 x 3s salvaged from removed tile ceiling, deck screws, glue, drywall screws, carriage bolts - about $40 overall, perhaps $60 if I had to buy the 1 x 3s.

New track - Total $25

2 packs new Atlas 22"R, 1 pack 9" straights, 2 packs joiners

Used track - Total $7:

1 Box o' fun from train show, $5, including 4 brass remote snap-switches and much snap-track
1 box o' fun from last year's show, $2, full of Tru-Scale switches I haven't used yet, and one Atlas brass wye which I have used.

Reused track - Total about $30
Three NS #4 Custom-Line switches, which I did buy new. However, I bought them three layouts ago, so I've been spending this same $30 bill since then...if I was just starting, of course, I'd have to count this.

Powerpack - Total $15:

1 MRC Ampack from train show, $5
Rat Shack parts to upgrade Ampack to transistor throttle, under $10

Equipment - Total about $43 :

(N.B. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually have /a little more/ than I can use, so I'm just including what I am using in my daily operations)

Life-Like 0-4-0T Teakettle - $29 new, 6 years ago.  Remotored with salvaged tape player motor.
(While the remotor job was easy, it involved a certain element of luck, and I don't
remember what kind of tape player the motor came from.  I tend to compulsively scrap
every failed electronic device and toss its usable parts in a box for later. There are
other ways to get cheap, good-running steam.  You can get great deals at train shows
if you look and take care to test and check for wear before buying.)

Steel boxcars - 2 Life-Like 40', 1 Model Power 40', from train shows, about $2 ea.

OB wooden boxcars - 2 Life-Like, $2 each from train shows.

50' flat - Tyco, $2 at train show

40' combine - Tyco, $3 at train show

(Yes, these do still have plastic wheels and horn-hooks.  I'm uncoupling with a 16d nail.
Eventually some or all will be upgraded, but I wanted to experiment.)

Track cleaning slider-car made from eminently suitable Life-Like 40' box - free, homebuilt from car in box o' fun #1 and scrap materials.

Obnoxiously unkillable Life-Like sidewinder F to pull track cleaner - free, was included in box o' fun #1. Also works obnoxiously well on modified Ampack after so much 150mph running.

So, as you can see, I am now happily operating my Plywood Pacific, and the total cost was well under $200, including $60 spent on material reused from previous layouts, and $20 in lumber that was salvaged and actually cost me nothing. Much of what I did spend was spread out over the several months it took me, working in little bits at a time, to construct the table and rebuild the Ampack. Some of that was a little tedious, but now I'm having a great time.

 

That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related

 

 

 

[SilverSpike]

That's cool That's cool!! And as you pointed it will work as this young lad proves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DugcOQYL4&feature=related

Yep, and where there's a will there's a way! That video reminds me of when I was a kid and playing with trains with my dad in the 1970's.

[Tom Curtin]

Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine.  It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total.  Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.

The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98.  you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).

Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.

BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7.  You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times.  I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.

 

 

[BRAKIE]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

[andrechapelon]

Since I will hit my 50th anniversary in Model Railroading in a few weeks, this is a good time to cite the example of my first engine.  It was an Athearn "Blue box" F7, powered A/Dummy B pair, which retailed in Dec. 1957 at 6.95 for the A and 3.00 for the B --- $9.95 total.  Looking that figure up in a consumer price index table gives a figure of $71.29 today.

The Athearn catalog offers the F7 pwered A & dummy B (together) today for $69.98.  you can probably find it discounted (1957 was before the days of discounting).

Admittedly this is only one example but it's amazing how close that is to the CPI.

BTW, that 1957 Athearn was rubber band "HiF" drive, painted in PRR passenger tuscan red, which I learned years later was not prototypically correct for an F-7.  You had to keep a supply of replacement rubber bands on hand at all times.  I'm sure today's engine is a much better product.

Yup. Sounds about right. Interestingly enough, you can get an A/B set of Athearn BB F-7's with both units powered (geared with flywheel) for an inflation adjusted price lower (and with much better truck detail) than the Hi-F power/dummy combo you got 50 years ago.  Paint jobs are better, too. http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F7+A%2fB+RTR&CatID=THLD

Naturally, that's MSRP. You can get them for less than that.

Andre

[BRAKIE]

Check out these prices.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/category_s/477.htm

 

[on30francisco]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

[Anonymous]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?

[on30francisco]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

Wasnt it American Hobby Manufacters? AHM?

Although AHM also had large ads in Model Railroader, AHC was always on the second or third page of every issue of MR and had two page ads. As online ordering became more popular, their ads shrunk to one page and eventually went the way of the 8 track. AHC was a discount hobby shop in New York that sold items from Atlas, Life Like,Tyco, MDC, etc by mail at a discount. Remember their own brand of turnouts called "Amtron" for $1.25? 

[Anonymous]

Riiight! Now I remember.

[Tom Curtin]

Yes I remember America's Hobby Center well . . . a crowded 2nd floor walkup somewhere down around the "garment district" of Manhattan.  I often shopped there both by mail and in person.  I have to say I do not remember them being a discounter, not in the mid 60s anyway.  However, they may have begun discounting later.  I think they still exist in the New York area somewhere.  The other thing I remember ( for some reason) was that the owner's name was Bernie, and he was --- well, kind of "Gruff," although in an endearing sort of way.

Now ---- since I'm on an inflation calculator roll, let me use an example of a brass import.  The standard inflation calculation might fall apart with brass because there is such a complex combination of factors influencing the prices.  But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time).  My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today.  Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449.  Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today.  There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.

 

[CNJ831]

But, here goes anyway: my first brass was a PFM Nickel Plate Berk purchased in 1968 for $64.95 (which was list at the time).  My inflation calculator says that works out to $378.89 today.  Now, I searched through a few brass dealers and found the same engine for sale for between $225 and $449.  Problem is, being a 40 year old model, the comparison is largely meaningless --- what I should quote is what dealers are getting for an identical or similar NEW brass steam loco today.  There aren't any new NKP Berks around, so I can't do that close a comparison.

Well, when you do find a currently in production one, or something reasonably comparable, you'll also find out that today it costs 3x to 4x your adjusted-for-inflation figure.  

CNJ831 

[BRAKIE]

Tom,There always beeb discounting either at a local shop or mail order.Remember the old 2 page IHC adds? IHC was out of New York,New York.

I believe that was AHC - America's Hobby Center. 

 

Ah yes! AHC..LOL! I hate senior moments.

Thanks for the correction..

[R. T. POTEET]

There is, to be sure, an observable increase in prices - I finally had to pay over three bucks a gallon for gasoline the other day and it is doomed to go higher. I filled one tank this last summer at $2.379 which surprised me because I had predicted a year ago that I would never see $2.50 a gallon gasoline again - I will make that same prediction now - I will never see $2.50 a gallon gasoline again.

The increase in petroleum prices will automatically generate an increase in the price of plastic; as I understand it after cracking only 13% of a barrel of oil is available for products other than fuels. There is also the supply and demand factor at work and an increase in the demand for plastic is going to further increase the price of that plastic which becomes available from the producer. I will prognosticate that that $20.00 boxcar from whomever now is going to be more than $25.00 in the not too distant future

There was a feature on the evening news last night about theft of copper which has increased in price 900% in the last two years. There is automatically going to be an increase in the price of brass so if you have been considering that $1000.00 locomotive better get it now cause its price is very likely to climb out of the reach of joesixpack. This is a mixed blessing; living in one of the largest copper producing states in the country it is nice to see mines reopening and out-of-work miners going back to work; as one whose entrepreneurial juices have been flowing in the direction of a line of brass N Scale passenger cars this makes me just a little depressed and I think you can understand why!

The increase in fuel prices is going to innaugurate an increase in the price of just about everything because just about everything has to be transported; if one hasn't noticed it already I have observed that my food bill has gone up. The farmer in the big valley of California sees an increase in his fuel bill and raises the price of his lettuce to compensate; that lettuce has to be packed and shipped in cardboard boxes which has gone up because the wood from which it is made has had to be transported by train which uses petroleum fuel and ........................ This is referred to as a treadmill to oblivion.

Employees put pressure on employers for increased wages to compensate for increased costs and this becomes a part of this neverending cycle. Is the cost of the hobby getting out of reach?; my continued participation will probably come at the expense of having to do with less. The increased cost of labor in Japan in the 1960's more than doubled the price of brass imports in the ten years between 1962 and 1972 and forever drove it out of the budget of this joesixpack.

I have a worry which has only been skirted here on this topic. In this day of scanning UPC bars it is rare to find price tags stuck on items but if, twenty years ago,  you encountered in your local supermarket a stocker going through the shelves and repricing merchandise he was doing that because the chain had been notified of an increase in the price of that item. A merchant must, of necessity, insure that the price he charges for an item is going to be high enough to pay for what his reordering is going to cost; if, for example, he has been charging $1.00 for an item and finds that his next order for that item will cost him $1.25 then he will immediately raise the price of his existing stock to reflect that new price. Some merchants have the depth to absorb an increase with only a minimum of heartburn; more than one merchant has found that he gets innundated with increased costs and becomes forced to fold his business simply because he lacks that depth to absorb those costs; this is one of the reasons why I continue to do business with my local - I want him to stay in business. There have been a number of topics here on the forum of late lamenting the closing of a favorite hobby shop; unfortunately I see spiraling inflation forcing more and more hobby shops to close their doors accompanied with much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth!

These are just a couple of my-two-cents-worth observations on what I perceive as a future problem for the hobby.

[tormadel]

I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it. Near as I can tell 1 person gets greedy and wants more, then it starts a domino cycle where everybody else has to raise prices to not loose out because someone down the chain of supply from them raised costs so now they have to.)

 I'll confess I"m the manager of a pizza delivery place. And I DO feel it when my customers gripe about the costs now. But I've checked up on my national competitors in town and they cost more then we do so. It's not that MY company has unreasonable costs, just that everything is unreasonable these days.

But it's very difficult to communicate to people that they really aren't paying any more here then they would someplace else, I believe because prices are changing too rapidly.

[Autobus Prime]

I agree. It is not just the cost of MRR, it is the cost of EVERYTHING. I know inflation is a nessary evil (although my econ. student who works for me has failed to provide a satisfactory explinantion why we can't live without it.

td:

There /are/ bright sides to moderate inflation, believe it or not.  If you borrow a certain amount of money at a fixed interest rate, inflation reduces the actual cost of the loan.

[tormadel]

hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.

[R. T. POTEET]

Try these two on for size from the AHC advertisement on pgs 6 and 7 of the December, 1959 issue of RMC:

SAVE 50% 4 CAR F7 DIESEL FREIGHT TRAIN Special Purchase! AHC scoops them all with this sensational ATHEARN 1959 ready-to-run train set at less than half price! Set includes Diesel F7 "A" unit powered, "B" unit dummy, box car, tank car, flat car with load and caboose. Also--circle of Snap-Track, Rerailer & terminal track. Quantity is limited, so rush your order. Ask for Bargain Deal "R1199" $24.00 Value, 11.99

and

B&O 2-8-8-4 ............................................................ $97.50
Here's the sensational ready-to-run beauty by IMP TAKARA. It's just about the most finely detailed loco you can buy. Heavy gauge brass with square tender. 30" radius. Full working valve gear. ORDER THIS OR ANY IMPORTED MODELS FROM AHC. If available anywhere--you can get it from us!

We can drool over those prices but remember that that $97.50 - and even that $11.99 for that matter - represented a considerable investment in earning power! In 1958 I ran into a fellow I had recently graduated from high school with in downtown Idaho Falls, Idaho and he told me that his union had just negotiated a new contract with his employer and his pay had gone up a whoppin' eleven cents an hour to a buck ten. He was actually bringing home a paycheck of over forty dollars a week! He was living in SEVENTH HEAVEN! and he had just gone out and bought himself a brand new car and his payments were only $27.00 a month.

[IRONROOSTER]

hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.

Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco).

Enjoy

Paul 

[Dave Vollmer]

hehe, yeah. Well bottom line is people still want to get a lg pep pizza drinks and breadstix for $15 but now adays it costs $21.50 including tax and delivery charge. Milk going from $2.55 to $3 they seem to be able to stomach, but the increase in the Big mac is a national crisis heh.

Well ------ a Big Mac is one of the Four Essential Food Groups (the others being beer, ice cream, and tobacco).

Enjoy

Paul 

I thought the four food groups were "beer, steak, sausage, and bacon..."

[tormadel]

lol

[pbjwilson]

A lot of remember whens on this topic;

Remember when you made a phone call, with a dial phone, and the person you called would actually answer the phone, or the phone would just ring and ring.

Remember when people would actually make and keep appointments.

Remember when men would open doors for women, stand up when a woman entered a room, offered a woman a seat if none were available, and people in general basicly just had manners.

Oh yah, and train stuff cost less.