i will admit that motive power is becoming very expensive. i wish athearn offered their RTRs without all that extra circuitry to make them DCC-ready. so us cheap DC modellers could get them for less.
but there will always be great bargains. Lombard Hobby never fails me there. $47.50 for a brand new athearn genesis SD70. you cant beat THAT!
expensive but worthwile. i mean you also have to factor in the newer detailing on these models. compare the new athearn RTR SD45s to their older bluebox ones. the RTRs look simply amazing!
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
jfugate wrote: The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%.
The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%.
Those figures are skewed as they are the average not the mean. Take off the top 20% (really rich people) and you see a VERY different picture.
If you want to realize how bad it has gotten the bottom 80% of Americans are spending over 500% of their average annual household income for a house now as opposed to only 390% in 1967 (and keep in mind this is based on HOUSEHOLD income where today you have two and sometimes more wage earners where in 1967 there was only 1- so to really put it in perspective we are now paying 1000% of of our individual wages today as compared to 390% in 1967. Source US Census http://goofyblog.net/historic-household-income-vs-home-prices/
If you also look household income for the bottom 80% of Americans has only gone up a bit over 67%. This means in reality the $70 brass engine of 1967 should be less than the Athearn Ready To Rolll Today.
This is not to incrimenate the hobby as the products are far superior in most cases today then in 1967 or even since 1997 and to some extent can justify the higher prices. The point is no matter how cheap or expensive the hobby is we won't be able to afford to enjoy it anywhere because it will be too expensive for the SPACE and this hobby does require space, even if it is to hold display cases on the wall!
I thought I would do a quick bit of research from when I entered the hobby (1967) to today.
One thing everybody forgets..Cost of living was cheaper back then when compared to today..That $8,000 equals about $155.00 a week before taxes..That wasn't a bad pay day back then seeing a gallion of milk was 29 cents and a gallon of gas was 32 cents.
We had it good back then..A brass diesel would cost between $21.95-34.95..Depending on type a steamer would run between $34.95 and 49.95..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
grayfox1119 wrote: I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.
I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
Bully for you...and if after doing all that through no fault of your own as an industry your wages suddenly fell or failed to increase to cover the inflations cost......if we all became electricians you would be making about $12 bucks an hour because there would be an over abundance of electricians so consider yourself lucky we all didn't take your same path, consider yourself lucky not everyone is willing to kill people and risk their own life in the service to get their education and not all of us happen to be in careers with unions (I don't know if you are in one or not but most electricians are) which keep the wages (and their assiciated product/service costs) artificially high and not all of us have the income at today's college costs to go back and get a degree.
I have a friend who is a computer/internet programmer...borderline genius with about a 190 IQ, went to college, did a lot of self teaching rose through the ranks, had a nice 6 figure income as most programmers have had through the 90's and early 2000's but the fact is most programmers now make between $40,000 to $80,000....he is doing more advanced work which needed more advanced education and he is making almost 1/2 what he made the past decade. He is not the only one, I can tell you numerous friends that are or were in fields that simply don't pay anymore or haven't increased in the last 10 years....retail, food & beverage managers, Dj's, graphic designers, sign making, computer programming, web design, car sales, pilots (yes believe it or not the average guy you trust your life to in a plane is now making only around $65,000 per year when 10 years ago it was over $100,000)...this is just to name a few of the industries where wages are still at or below levels from 10 years ago.
I make over $50,000 a year myself and I am single with no dependents, but between fighting the IRS, the utility companies, the gas station, the grocery store and the car dealer I have precious little left over for rent (you can forget about owning at todays prices).
Anyway, I have seemed to have gotten off topic and apoligize for that......Just making the point that this hobby that is my only salvation in life is not out of line cost wise by comparison to the neccessities of life, even if at this point it is only the hobby of collecting because there is nothing left over for the space to build and operate it....and the catch 22 is if I worked more to make more money then I wouldn't have the time to enjoy it anyway!
Falls Valley RR wrote: Something else besides the Internet. Something new gets released or announced and gets put under a bright light and intense scrutiny by all parties for better or worse.A Manufacter who announced a choo choo for example has to be sweating bullets as various forums tear apart the new engine LONG before it actually gets produced and hits the hobby shop.Success or Failure of a choo choo model or any model sometimes rest on how it performed via video or other considerations.Continued survival of the model being produced will depend on people's feedback. You can almost see if a item is goot, or junk with issues before you spend a penny with a little searching.Finally but not least, finding that choo choo at a price you are willing to pay instead of FULL MSRP or even your local hobby shop's price can save you money... particularly the part about sales taxes. Not having to pay taxes sometimes makes the sale.Dont worry about me, I keep two hobby shops busy and lots of internet stuff all year. There is enough to go around.The other side of the coin, the Internet can communicate one buyer's desire for a very specific choo choo and reach out to the USA or even the world and find that choo choo and have it shipped.That did not exist 15 years ago.
Something else besides the Internet. Something new gets released or announced and gets put under a bright light and intense scrutiny by all parties for better or worse.
A Manufacter who announced a choo choo for example has to be sweating bullets as various forums tear apart the new engine LONG before it actually gets produced and hits the hobby shop.
Success or Failure of a choo choo model or any model sometimes rest on how it performed via video or other considerations.
Continued survival of the model being produced will depend on people's feedback. You can almost see if a item is goot, or junk with issues before you spend a penny with a little searching.
Finally but not least, finding that choo choo at a price you are willing to pay instead of FULL MSRP or even your local hobby shop's price can save you money... particularly the part about sales taxes. Not having to pay taxes sometimes makes the sale.
Dont worry about me, I keep two hobby shops busy and lots of internet stuff all year. There is enough to go around.
The other side of the coin, the Internet can communicate one buyer's desire for a very specific choo choo and reach out to the USA or even the world and find that choo choo and have it shipped.
That did not exist 15 years ago.
Not to worry..From what I seen very little heed to given to forum chatter about new products after all most of the guys I know still depend on the MR reviews.I purchases my locomotives from Athearn and Atlas and cars from Athearn,Atlas,Accurail and Walthers..I do have some IM and Branch line cars and a handful of KD cars..
I also let the locomotive gurus and forum "super modelers" rattle on and all the while I can't help but, wonder if they walk the walk they talk..Sadly most "super modelers" never post a picture of their 110% correct locomotives and cars so we will never know.
TheK4Kid wrote: Hi fellas and gals! Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!! Have you seen the Nickle Plate 587? If so and have pics, send me a PM with the pics please!
TheK4Kid wrote: Hi fellas and gals! Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!
Hi fellas and gals!
Well, I'll chime in with my two cents worth!I also build and fly RC airplanes, have for years, but trains are also a passion!
I ALSO restore and fly vintage airplanes, I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.You think trains are expensive???Try FULL SCALE aviation. Present price of avgas 100 low lead here is $4.78 a gallon.Burns 4 1/2 to 5 gallons an hour, so thats about $25 an hour for fuel.Just put a new transponder in my plane--cost? -- $2,000.00 plus wiring, oh I guess about $2300 overall.New moving map GPS-Navcom radio, cost?=$1,200 New brakes and lines, let's see, about $800.00.3 new tires, oh about $145 apiece.New paint job will cost about $7,000
Engine overhual a few years ago (4 cylinders) about $8,500Annual FAA safety inspection, at least $700Hangar rent at $185 a month split two ways so, about $92.50 a month
Trains??? TRains are a CHEAP HOBBY!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!
- Luke
Modeling the Southern Pacific in the 1960's-1980's
grayfox1119 wrote: Joe, that is an excellent point, and it certainly explaines "why" MR (as well as other mags) are thinner these days.As for cost of crude oil, yes, it certainly is near $100 a barrel, look for it to hit there next week or two. However, recycling is having a huge impact on keeping manufactured goods made with petroleum in check. We now have a separate trash container provided to us by our refuse desposal contractor in our neighborhood. It gets weighed before emptying, and it even has a microchip in the cover which reads into a hand-held device by the driver. We earn Recycle bucks ($$) that we can use at many local big name stores. ( Awaiting my LHS to join the list ) And all the refuse is used to build ( in part ), yup, you guessed it, my next HO box car, etc. You would be surprised at what is now reproduced using recycled materials.
Joe, that is an excellent point, and it certainly explaines "why" MR (as well as other mags) are thinner these days.
As for cost of crude oil, yes, it certainly is near $100 a barrel, look for it to hit there next week or two. However, recycling is having a huge impact on keeping manufactured goods made with petroleum in check. We now have a separate trash container provided to us by our refuse desposal contractor in our neighborhood. It gets weighed before emptying, and it even has a microchip in the cover which reads into a hand-held device by the driver. We earn Recycle bucks ($$) that we can use at many local big name stores. ( Awaiting my LHS to join the list ) And all the refuse is used to build ( in part ), yup, you guessed it, my next HO box car, etc. You would be surprised at what is now reproduced using recycled materials.
You can make plastics out of soybeans and many other things too. Not just crude oil. I used to think that too untill I watched somethings on agricultural scientists of the early 20th century.
grayfox1119 wrote: I would like to know what is keeping anyone from being what they would like to be ( I am speaking about a career here ). I was born and brought up in a dirt poor neighborhood, cold water house, 3 family, no central heat, and dad made $19 a week back in 1940. I wanted something better, and so did my parents for their children. All they could afford was a junior college ( 2 year ) and that was with me working part time to help. I wanted to go into the field of electronics, as I knew that was a good area to make the $$ that we never had, and I always loved anything electrical as a boy. Later I entered the Army and received more training in electronics. This helped me get a good job upon exiting the Army. Later I went on to get a full degree, while I was married and had 4 children, attending school nights, 4 nights a week for 5 years. The rest is history. I later went on for a Master's degree in business at age 50, ya that's right ..50!! Why? Because I wanted to see if I could do it, and 4 years later after attending school at night, I made it with honors. I am NOT telling this little personal story to toot my horn, I could care less, I am not that way , but when I hear people knock those who make the "big bucks" in life, I see red. Who was holding "you" back? I had it as tough as anyone and did it, ask yourselves why you couldn't do it? People have come to this country with only the shirts on their backs and pennies in their pocket, and cannot even speak the language and yet they succeed.I think one needs to ask oneself ," what is REALLY holding me back"....the answer is YOU!
I would like to know what is keeping anyone from being what they would like to be ( I am speaking about a career here ). I was born and brought up in a dirt poor neighborhood, cold water house, 3 family, no central heat, and dad made $19 a week back in 1940. I wanted something better, and so did my parents for their children. All they could afford was a junior college ( 2 year ) and that was with me working part time to help. I wanted to go into the field of electronics, as I knew that was a good area to make the $$ that we never had, and I always loved anything electrical as a boy.
Later I entered the Army and received more training in electronics. This helped me get a good job upon exiting the Army. Later I went on to get a full degree, while I was married and had 4 children, attending school nights, 4 nights a week for 5 years. The rest is history. I later went on for a Master's degree in business at age 50, ya that's right ..50!! Why? Because I wanted to see if I could do it, and 4 years later after attending school at night, I made it with honors.
I don't think most people are held back by not being WILLING to do something to change their lives but rather restrained by not truly knowing WHAT they want with their lives. Yes I want to earn more money, but doing what? I remember taking the required "career education" class in high school and the guidence counselors, but they completely failed in really helping me understand what I wanted in life. Other then a computer, nice house, wife and a layout. Those are the THINGS you want in life, but how to get them is another story. I believe many americans work at a job they can TOLERATE. Not a job they really like or want, but one they can put up with and pays enough to put food on the table. For me it is the great friends and customers that make my job bearable. But do I feel like I was put on this earth to run a restaruant? no.
Not saying this to put you down or disagree with you Grayfox, I'm proud of you. And delighted that you found a true calling in life. Just wish I could say the same for everybody.
PS- I know heh, if only I could put as much passion into my career as I do my hobbies. :)
Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years. Sadly I will never achieve that. However, I try to do good work with what is availible and if it means a little plastic without paint here and there? I think's is ok. Weathering will take care of the worst places if done after looking at similar photos.
Regarding one poster who claimed that home ownership free and clear is impossible there are those who choose to live in slightly lower cost of living areas and try to do it well to make it happen. We dont need 400,000 dollar homes. 50,000 done right is plenty. But not in the mega cities where everything is out of sight anyhow.
I hear stories of the humble rowhomes back in Baltimore turned into money land selling for 6 to 10 times what they sold brand new around the war years. Sometimes such expensive homes are torn down straight away to build bigger, more expensive and glitzier towers.
Such a pace cannot and will not be sustained.
Thank goodness Trains is cheap. Yes they are getting pricer and I can buy fewer of them each month because of higher unit costs but once in a while... indeed lightning can and does strike twice.
Sure am glad you guys put in that "average as opposed to mean" income information. I was feeling pretty poor when I read that most people made 66G!
I graduated HS in '73, and had a pretty decent job with-in a few years. Without quoting any statistics, it sure seems tighter now as far as income is concerned. Yesterday (Sun) gas was 2.79, but I left home without my wallet, so I didn't stop to top off the tank. Today, it's 3.15, and thats a sizeable jump no matter how you look at it. It just feels like the "takers" are asking more and more of the "givers".
The only bright ray of hope I've seen in the past 10 years was a commercial that told me "it will take 20 years to pay off 10,000$ credit card debt"- HARHARHAR! I ain't gonna live 20 more years, so I say slap it on the card and let 'em dig ya up to get the cash!!!!
On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
Toodles!
Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years. Sadly I will never achieve that. However, I try to do good work with what is availible and if it means a little plastic without paint here and there? I think's is ok. Weathering will take care of the worst places if done after looking at similar photos.
I have also seen 110% models over the years..
However,those are not the type I am talking about.
I have seen topics where one guy claim the this or that is 2" to narrow..I cancelled my 10 units because yada,yada,yada..The engineers seat is to wide,to narrow,the door latch is a 1" to long and yada,yada etc yet,these jay hawkers never post a picture of their stuff but,will be among the first to trash a new model over minor detail problems.
Savvy mate?
BTW..I would be happy if I could model as good as I did 2 lustrums ago.
Falls Valley RR wrote:Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Good Morning!
Being in the hobby for quite some time (lionel since 1956 and HO since 1959) may I offer my perspective on "the high cost of HO - then and now".................
When I started HO in 1959, I could barely afford an Athearn F and GP units, and a handful of their kits, and brass sectional track. I was in high school, so money was not all that available. I didn't pay much attention to the more expensive stuff as I couldn't afford it. Today's teenager is probably in the same boat, but I suspect better off than I was.
In the 1970s I had a house and wife and 4 young children and Athearn was still the best I could really afford. I did manage a couple of Rivarossi steam locos, and were they special. I do recall that the $2-$3 Athearn kits were some very nice affordable Christmas and birthday.
In the 1980s, I had upgraded the house but had the same wife and 4 teenagers. Money continued to be tight for model railroading, but I could afford some Ulrich/Silver Streak kits and some of the better Rivarossi and Atlas locos. But the mainstream was still Athearn and MDC!
In the 1990s, I "lost" the wife, and the kids went out on their own. So all of a sudden there was money for the railroad, as well as a large room. Atlas and Athearn and Rivarossi ruled, but the car kit selection was much more. But the money and time was spent on the layout.
In the 2000s, I have a new wife, and money is available for model railroading. Locos are now Stewart, Proto 2k, Atlas, Bachmann Spectrum, and BLI. Cars are mostly mid-level stuff, including Proto, Intermountain, Walthers, Accurail, and of course MDC and Athearn.
What I am trying to say is that:
- We need to focus on our increased earnings over time, as well as the cost of the product.
- As with automobiles, there is a much better product out there today.
- There is a much larger selection and ready availability of product.
- The average age of model railroaders is surely significantly higher today than 40 years ago. I would say that a good portion (like me) are in their peak earning years or retired and have more money to spend - for more expensive stuff.
Hey, it ain't cheap - but it sure is fun!!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
marknewton wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.No doubt you have, but in Brakie's world, if it isn't being done at one of the clubs he belongs to, it doesn't exist. And if those 110% modellers are interested in accuracy and quality, then they're not having fun!!! Mark.(Striving to be a 100%er...)
Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.
Yeah,but,the world I am in is real and not a cyber world of fantasy.
mobilman44 wrote: Good Morning!Being in the hobby for quite some time (lionel since 1956 and HO since 1959) may I offer my perspective on "the high cost of HO - then and now".................(SNIP)What I am trying to say is that:- We need to focus on our increased earnings over time, as well as the cost of the product. - As with automobiles, there is a much better product out there today.- There is a much larger selection and ready availability of product.- The average age of model railroaders is surely significantly higher today than 40 years ago. I would say that a good portion (like me) are in their peak earning years or retired and have more money to spend - for more expensive stuff.
(SNIP)
All true, but with decided caveats.
1. Very few of us here were fully grown adults, out in the workaday world, in the 1950's or 60's. Without that perspective, no fair comparison can be made addressing the original question. One must compare the average adult's financial situation and purchasing power for each era.
2. Why are so many so naive as to NOT EXPECT any given product to improve enormously with the passage of 40-50 years! Of course our models are better today. Do you honestly think 1970's Tyco-quality trains would sell to today's hobbyists?
Most items in the marketplace, after experiencing an initial spurt of high pricing reflecting a major advance in technology, soon drop back to the range of their former pricing. Research any product you'd like and you'll see this over and over. On the other hand, many of the major items in model railroading have been steadily escalating in price now at far beyond what inflation implies for about 15 years and this pace has been accelerating with time.
3. As to product availability, the claim of today's great diversity of available products is more myth than substance. Over a span of 3-5 years are we seeing a flood of new products? You bet! However, most of the more desirable items are available in only very limited numbers and over an even more limited time frame....the "buy now or loose out" business plan.
Try ordering from Walthers frequently and you are also likely to find that about half the items listed in their catalog...sometimes even in their monthly fliers...are unavailable, or with an unknown backorder date. I run into this constantly. Since well stocked local hobby shops have become a thing of the past, the odds that anything major you want must be ordered have dramatically increased...if the item is even available. Unless you deal daily with eBay, product choices are far more limited than most hobbyists think.
4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.
These points aren't doom and gloom...they simply reflect the reality of the situation,
CNJ831
3. As to product availability, the claim of today's great diversity of available products is more myth than substance. Over a span of 3-5 years are we seeing a flood of new products? You bet! However, most of the more desirable items are available in only very limited numbers and over an even more limited time frame....the "buy now or loose out" business plan.CNJ831
Excellent point. Yes we do have a lot of new companies offering a lot of new products but looking at that 1982 catalog, a lot of those companies have disappeared or been absorbed. A lot of the products are no produced by anyone. Sure, most have been replaced by better stuff, but there were a number of very fine structure kits no longer available from anyone. The size of the Walthers catalog has remained fairly consistent over the years. The market can only support so much product.
BRAKIE wrote: marknewton wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: Well Brakie, I have been humbled and honored to have seen such 110% modeling in person over the years.No doubt you have, but in Brakie's world, if it isn't being done at one of the clubs he belongs to, it doesn't exist. And if those 110% modellers are interested in accuracy and quality, then they're not having fun!!! Mark.(Striving to be a 100%er...) Yeah,but,the world I am in is real and not a cyber world of fantasy.
philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
-dj-l-ectric
I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform.
You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
CNJ831 wrote:4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831
If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.
Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?
As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop.
It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit.
If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Dave Vollmer wrote: philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.-dj-l-ectric I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform. You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "John Stuart MillEnglish economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading...
Well said.
Paul
Well, break it down across several months and you will have your 500 dollars worth of track.
All this stuff is always a matter or priorities and perspective...
I'm not on this planet to judge anyone, but I have used this example many times:
In almost the same breath, I had a customer explain to me that he could not afford today's locomotives such as the Athearn RTR that is in the 65 - 75.00 range.
Then he complained about "having" to spend 80 bucks at Outback last night. For one meal.
My wife and I don't spend 80.00 a week on groceries.
Priorities and perspective.
CNJ831 wrote:Try ordering from Walthers frequently and you are also likely to find that about half the items listed in their catalog...sometimes even in their monthly fliers...are unavailable, or with an unknown backorder date. I run into this constantly. Since well stocked local hobby shops have become a thing of the past, the odds that anything major you want must be ordered have dramatically increased...if the item is even available. Unless you deal daily with eBay, product choices are far more limited than most hobbyists think.
David P. Morgan once wrote a story about "The Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate". I'm seriously considering writing a story entitled:
The Dead Horse That People Refuse To Stop Flogging
Just for the sake of peace and quiet, I will stipulate to the following even though I think each of the following statements is a crock. I will do so if (and only if) everyone else takes and adheres to the pledge to cease commenting on said allegations.
1. The hobby is dying. It's been dying since at least 1960, perhaps even earlier.
2. The hobby is way overpriced and the fat cat manufacturers are gouging us into abject poverty.
3. Model Railroader was a much better magazine way back when (way back when is unspecified, it's just some non-specific golden age in the past).
Andre
dj-l-ectric wrote: jfugate wrote: The average annual income in 1967 was about $8,000 per year, and today the average annual income is $66,000 (I'm rounding to keep the math simple). That's an increase of 825%. Those figures are skewed as they are the average not the mean. Take off the top 20% (really rich people) and you see a VERY different picture.
Ok, now we are just manipulating numbers. If you are going to take the top 20% off then you need to take the bottom 20% off too. While you are at it, take the top 20% off when looking at the tax burden and who pays it. Then you'll get a real shock.
I saw someone else talking about exchange rates. I believe most would agree that the majority of goods we buy for model railroading are from China. The Chinese Yuan has been pegged to the US dollar for years, meaning that the Chinese people had no more buying power in the US, even as their economy strengethened. This cost American businesses and the stock market consumers and income. Only recently (since the middle of 2005) has the Chinese government allowed the Yuan to float more against the dollar. So don't blame exchange rates for any perceived increase in costs.
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=CNY&amt=1&t=5y
Now before someone else gets excited over the chart, that ugly looking drop is only 11%. We'd actually prefer it be more but the Chinese government is allowing the Yuan to float up slowly against the dollar to avoid high inflation on their part and a currency collapse on our part.
Now back to the trains.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
One Track Mind wrote: All this stuff is always a matter or priorities and perspective...I'm not on this planet to judge anyone, but I have used this example many times:In almost the same breath, I had a customer explain to me that he could not afford today's locomotives such as the Athearn RTR that is in the 65 - 75.00 range.Then he complained about "having" to spend 80 bucks at Outback last night. For one meal.My wife and I don't spend 80.00 a week on groceries.Priorities and perspective.
Hear Hear!
Another tidbit is workday coffee. That Starbucks is 3 bucks and one thermos from the home coffee pot works out to about 60 sents plus electricity to brew it yourself. But boy that Stanley Thermos is very expensive =)
dj-l-ectric wrote: Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
If you are going to post an opinion, it is best to say so or show some facts. Here's some data from the BLS website: http://www.bls.gov/
Weekly and hourly earnings data from the Current Population Survey
Series Id: LEU0252881500Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in current dollars (second quartile)Industry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full time
There has been no year where wages have gone down. Forget over 5 years.
I notice that there isn't much reference to what scale is being discussed. Well, go to EBAY and check out the N scale stuff, one would think that being half the size of HO it would be cheaper, yes? Well guess what!? it's about TWICE as much, the prices for used locos and rolling stock are super high......why? well I'd venture a guess that it's because N scale is a much less popular scale than HO so there's a lot less of it lying around, and the mere fact that it's so small means it's harder to manufacture.
However, there are bidding wars on almost every lot and parts auction that comes up in N scale. People want that stuff and they will pay for it. So in answer to the question, No I don't think this hobby is too expensive, it just depends on what you want. If you want fancy sound locos with working lights and engineers that wave and rolling stock with individually applied rivets, be ready to break out the bucks, if you want to run trains and have fun, there's still a multitude of deals out there. Being a savvy smart shopper will make your hard earned greenbacks go much farther.