N scale has boomed in popular use in my area. There is not enough space to run in O or HO so N offers the best for some.
I occasionally use Ebay but as a sniper within the last 6 seconds only and pre-armed with MSRP minus shipping. USUALLY.... not always the hobby shop has the item.
There is money out there and certain items command bidding wars. My feeling is that the hobby isnt too expensive, but more of a problem for those who cannot stand to lose to another with more dollars on the bidding screen.
Dave Vollmer wrote: philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.-dj-l-ectric I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform. You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "John Stuart MillEnglish economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading... Hi Dave, You'll ALWAYS have understanding from this ex-serviceman, who during one hot summer night In central south Korea on a US tactical missile base, was part of a team that actually ARMED the WEAPONS of ARMAGEDDON.We were never given the actual reason for this action, but for about 48 hours, a lot of young men paryed to God that those birds stayed on their launchers, because the other side had similar weapons aimed at us, and it was like a giant showdown, as to who had the fastest gun.If anyone reading this on here ever served with the US Army 44th Air Defense in Korea in 1973, you know what I'm talking about.Two Nike Hercules missiles, raised to the launching position, engines plugged in, warheads armed and programmed, sat vigilantly for 48 hours before returning to their bunkers,and warheads de-armed.If those birds had flown, the killing on the receiving end would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a minor skirmish.There were several other Nike sites spread throughout Korea who did the same thing during those 48 hours.To better understand what Dave Vollmer means, I highly recommend you watch Frank Capra's "WHY WE FIGHT". Freedom just isn't free.God Bless those who stand vigilance over it!They allow us to enjoy our trains in peace!Now back to regularly schduled train discussion. TheK4Kid
philnrunt wrote: ...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
...On a more serious note, -dj-l-etric, have to say that was a pretty cheap shot you took at the military reference "killing people". Seems to me that was what made all of this stuff possible. Sure hope I interpreted it wrong, and if I did, excuse me.
-dj-l-ectric
I've been in the Air Force now for almost 12 years; through it I've earned my Master's and am almost done with my PhD (on their dime). And yes, I've had to go to war (with the Army, actually), and yes, I was part of the system which resulted in killing people and breaking their stuff. I'm proud of my service. I don't ask for thanks, but I do ask for a bit of understanding that sometimes killing bad people is what it takes to protect what we love, even if that thing we are protecting is another American in uniform.
You have a right to disagree; you have a right to be self-righteous. Let me leave you with a quote:
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the cost of model railroading...
Hi Dave,
You'll ALWAYS have understanding from this ex-serviceman, who during one hot summer night In central south Korea on a US tactical missile base, was part of a team that actually ARMED the WEAPONS of ARMAGEDDON.We were never given the actual reason for this action, but for about 48 hours, a lot of young men paryed to God that those birds stayed on their launchers, because the other side had similar weapons aimed at us, and it was like a giant showdown, as to who had the fastest gun.If anyone reading this on here ever served with the US Army 44th Air Defense in Korea in 1973, you know what I'm talking about.
Two Nike Hercules missiles, raised to the launching position, engines plugged in, warheads armed and programmed, sat vigilantly for 48 hours before returning to their bunkers,and warheads de-armed.If those birds had flown, the killing on the receiving end would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a minor skirmish.
There were several other Nike sites spread throughout Korea who did the same thing during those 48 hours.To better understand what Dave Vollmer means, I highly recommend you watch Frank Capra's "WHY WE FIGHT". Freedom just isn't free.God Bless those who stand vigilance over it!They allow us to enjoy our trains in peace!
Now back to regularly schduled train discussion.
TheK4Kid
I have to admit that I got away from the train show circuit, and ordered strictly from on-line dealers. We went to a swap meet last month in Ft Wayne and I was astounded by how much cheaper the prices were there, opposed to on-line shops.
If you go strictly by the Walthers Catalogue, and adds in MR and RMC, I can see where you would get a bit discouraged by the prices, but don't give up, check out a swap meet.
I'm not talking about the Great Train Show, for me and Amy to run to one in Indy, with admission, parking and a bite to eat, add gas and we have spent around 100$ just going. That pretty well shoots down buying anything. But the local meets, 2-3$ to get in, free parking, etc, and you can still grab up deals. Even if you only make one or two a year, you can get enough stuff to keep you busy for awhile.
I gotta admit, we sure have some deep thinkers on this forum. You guys would have a better chance of getting the economy on track than either pollitical party!
Keep up the good debates!
jfugate wrote: CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop. It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit. If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby.
CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831
4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.
CNJ831
If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.
Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?
As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop.
It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit.
If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby.
Joe,
Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.
For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:
"The hobby is doomed".
"Prices are outrageous".
"Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".
Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side.
I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.
Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.
I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.
However, for the sake of peace and tranquility, let's not post our contrarian apostasy anymore, OK?
Yeah, like that's going to happen.
Andre
(apologies for being off-topic, but this is educational)Just in case not everyone knows, the US Army Nike Hercules missiles were air defense weapons with nukes onboard. These were stationed all over the USA (along with their conventional cousins, the Nike Ajax) and several other locations protecting major cities from bomber raids. The system wasn't very accurate, but then with a nuke, you really don't have to be. A friend of mine was a radar operator in Battery C, Philadelphia, and a fellow member of my RR club was in a Battery in the Boston area (where one of the bases is now a condo complex with a nice underground garage).
For the best book on the subject that I've ever heard of, try "Rings of Supersonic Steel" at:http://www.holeintheheadpress.com/purchase.html
Also, there is a Nike Historical Society at:http://www.nikemissile.org/
BTW, TheK4Kid (and not taking anything away from your scary experience), you should hear my dad talk about the time he was TDY from the 4126th Strat. Aero. Wing (Beale AFB, CA) to Eielson AFB (Fairbanks, Alaska) during the Fall of 1962 (the Cuban Missile Crisis). That's DEFCON 2 at an Alaskan B-52 base...yikes. Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
andrechapelon wrote:Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.Andre
About 6 months ago I pulled the January 1961 MR and looked through it to refresh my memory as to what the content looked like.
The lead article was an interview with a loco scratchbuilder. He was saying the hobby was going to the dogs because of all the RTR equipment these days. Nobody was scratchbuilding any more.
Sound familiar? That was 47 years ago. In the same era there were editorials expressing concern there were no youngsters interested in trains because of all the new rage: slot cars.
Yep the hobby went to the dogs alright and nobody scratchbuilds any more. That's why precise prototype modeling is all the rage because we can do it with off-the-shelf products and not kitbash or scratchbuild anything. Yep. And all the youngsters went to slot cars in the 60s and nobody does trains any more. Ah well, imagine what the hobby could have been if it hadn't gone to the dogs 40-some years ago.
Photos of a hobby gone to the dogs (click to enlarge)
Construction photo of cabling detail on Liz Allen's SD45 model shown above(Click image to enlarge)
For more photos of a hobby gone to the dogs, click here or here.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
andrechapelon wrote: Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side.
Let me remind you also of a character from literature by the name of Pollyanna, whose afliction was only being able to see an unrealistically bright side to every situation, no matter how bad it really was.
In the real world such folks generally react from a position lacking in actual knowledge of a given situation, yet an obsessive need for things not to alter their outlook or position. This thread is a fine example. Numbers are thrown about willy-nilly without regard to what they represent, their actual meaning, or how comparable or representative they really are...just so long as they are upbeat. As long as the posted "facts and figures" suggest things are going well, they are accepted as 100% correct and accurate. However, let the numbers tend to indicate perhaps everything isn't perfect and they immediately become invalid, were taken out of context, anything, just so long as they can be disregarded. And then the poster of any possibly more reliable information is publicly insulted in hopes of discrediting him. Such a stance reflects a position more of posters' desperation of being unable to accept change, that things MUST remain status quo, rather than from intelligently evaluating what information is available and reaching an unfettered conclusion from them. Little wonder that 95% of all the really serious model railroaders who have ever passed through this forum, have soon left it.
But don't worry, remember, the Titanic is unsinkable!
jbinkley60 wrote: dj-l-ectric wrote: Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.If you are going to post an opinion, it is best to say so or show some facts. Here's some data from the BLS website: http://www.bls.gov/ Weekly and hourly earnings data from the Current Population SurveySeries Id: LEU0252881500Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in current dollars (second quartile)Industry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full timeYearQtr1Qtr2Qtr3Qtr4Annual20005735695745855762001589592596606596200261160560361360820036206166186256202004634639632647638200565364364965965120066686596756826712007693690695 There has been no year where wages have gone down. Forget over 5 years.
dj-l-ectric wrote: Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
Have we all forgotten THE MOST EXPENSIVE part of the hobby........your space! Until the recent real estate crash (which is by no means over) the cost of space has FAR exceeded the cost of living AND wages. Yes engines cost over $100 and rolling stock over $25 but they have improved so much over the years you can't compare them.....but housing had more than trippled or quadrupled in many areas of the country in a short 5-7 year span. I don't know about you guys but my pay really hasn't gone up much in almost 10 years, forget upbout tripling to keep up with housing....and that is the case for most people who are not self employed or work for a union or the government. In fact a HUGE segment of the population is now making LESS then they were for the same jobs they had 5-7 years ago.
If you are going to post an opinion, it is best to say so or show some facts. Here's some data from the BLS website: http://www.bls.gov/
Weekly and hourly earnings data from the Current Population Survey
Series Id: LEU0252881500Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in current dollars (second quartile)Industry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full time
There has been no year where wages have gone down. Forget over 5 years.
Here is the same table in constant dollars generally considered a more useful measure of whether wages/salaries are going up, down, or unchanged.
Series Id: LEU0252881600Not Seasonally AdjustedSeries title: (unadj)- Constant (1982) dollar adjusted to CPI-U- Median usual weekly earnings, Employed full time, Wage and salary workersPercent/rates: N/AEarnings: Median usual weekly earnings - in constant (1982) dollarsIndustry: All IndustriesOccupation: All OccupationsSex: Both SexesRace: All RacesEthnic origin: All OriginsAge: 16 years and overEducation: TotalClass of worker: Wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employedLabor force status: Employed full time
andrechapelon wrote: jfugate wrote: CNJ831 wrote: 4. Indeed, the average age of model railroaders is dramatically older today than at any time in the hobby's post war history. At the same time, the hobby seems to be catering increasingly to the middle-aged and up faction. Even WGH admits, unabashedly, that its target audience is men between 45 and 64...those most likely to have the extra cash. In the manufacturers' eyes, younger people (the hobby's only hope beyond 15-20 years from now) are obviously not even considered as potential hobbyists.CNJ831If this is completely true, then why was at least 50% of the booths and audience at the last WGH show I attended Thomas the Tank trains and youngsters under 12 clammoring for Thomas-related items? The show included a low-cost train ride on a train pulled by a Thomas-like loco -- and there was a constant line of parents and kids wanting a ride.Sure it's not the Lionel or proto-based train sets of the 1950s and 60s, but hey, it's trains and it seems to be quite popular at WGH train shows I've attended. If they're catering primarily to the 45-64 crowd, they've picked the wrong thing to emphasize! If these kids are not considered potential hobbyists by the WGH show powers-that-be, then why the huge emphasis on Thomas?As to high prices of hobby products, higher prices reflect higher demand for goods, otherwise companies that outprice the market will go out of business. If what you're suggesting is true, then at some point the prices will begin dropping because the demand will drop. It's all just economics -- hobby manufacturers seem to have discovered the sweet spot between price and demand. If you do a limited run of an item, you can charge more, keep your expenses to a known fixed amount, and ultimately make a better profit. If that's what it takes to keep the manufacturers happy and producing new stuff, then it works for me. Sure I'd love to see it cost less, but some product is better than no product because manufacturers can't make a good living in such a niche hobby. Joe,Remember the comic strip "Li'l Abner" by the late Al Capp? There was a character in that strip named Joe Btfsplk (sound of a raspberry) who walked around with a storm cloud over his head? The gloom and doomers are essentially that character in real life.For the sake of peace and tranquility, please repeat after me:"The hobby is doomed"."Prices are outrageous"."Model Railroader was a much better magazine back when <insert favorite mythcal golden age here>".Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. I first heard the "hobby doomed" argument nearly 50 years ago. It's sure taking an almighty long time. I'll probably hear that same argument on my death-bed, but by that time, my grandkids will be making the counter-argument for me.Every time I run the numbers, the hobby doesn't seem outrageous compared to the past (and it doesn't matter which decade, either). BTW, I use median income figures rather than mean. It's a more accurate picture given that income distribution in this country is not the "normal" bell shaped curve so beloved of statisticians and other ne'er-do-wells.I got my first issue of MR in August, 1957. Quite frankly, I think the current MR is a much better magazine than it was back then, and if there ever was a golden age for the hobby, we're living in it. But that's just me. I will grant you MR is not perfect. No publication can be. However, as a general interest magazine covering the hobby, MR gets it right far more often than not. If someone could do it better, they would and MR would be an also-ran. Same thing could be said of Walthers as a manufacturer/supplier.However, for the sake of peace and tranquility, let's not post our contrarian apostasy anymore, OK?Yeah, like that's going to happen. Andre
And don't forget the "Why in my day, we had to walk uphill both ways to the lhs, cut down trees and mine ore for our scratchbuilding needs. Modelers these days are wimps and all the serious modelers left long ago" mantra
secondhandmodeler wrote:This will be my one and only post to this thread. The price of a subscription to MR is quite high compared to other magazines. I couldn't believe the price for a years subscription. It is two to three times higher than other magazines I subscribe to.
2hm:
It's a specialty mag. They're always more than Time, Newsweek, and general interest stuff. MR isn't too bad. The Transformers Collectors' Club magazine (which I don't get) costs $50 a year and it's not nearly as full of vitamins and minerals (granted, the club rag comes with a free exclusive-usually ugly-colorscheme figure in the $7 size every year, which, again, does not motivate me to shell out that much cash).
As for quality of MR, I think it's been pretty good lately, but that's a discussion for another time and a full coffee pot.
Instead of worrying and arguing about this stuff, why don't we all come up with new and economical ways of doing things? Remember how E. L. Moore kept low price in front of the reader, and gleefully quoted the cheap costs of his scratchbuilt structures? That was a rare thing back then, actually; most people didn't mention cost - although I see it a lot in the 1930s magazines, and MR did have that "dollar car" series.
Complaining gets us nowhere. Figuring out how to do stuff cheaply does. Moore was only one man, and he wasn't rich, and he was no spring chicken when he started writing articles -- but he was clever, and thrifty. Look at how much influence he had. What if he had just decided that the hobby was outside his income limits, as well as outside his space limits (as it apparently was), and complained?
CNJ831 wrote:As long as the posted "facts and figures" suggest things are going well, they are accepted as 100% correct and accurate. However, let the numbers tend to indicate perhaps everything isn't perfect and they immediately become invalid, were taken out of context, anything, just so long as they can be disregarded. And then the poster of any possibly more reliable information is publicly insulted in hopes of discrediting him. Such a stance reflects a position more of posters' desperation of being unable to accept change, that things MUST remain status quo, rather than from intelligently evaluating what information is available and reaching an unfettered conclusion from them. Little wonder that 95% of all the really serious model railroaders who have ever passed through this forum, have soon left it.But don't worry, remember, the Titanic is unsinkable! CNJ831
CN:
Like the saying goes, there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics.
Not all the statistics agree with the gloom and doom view. Some statistics support hobby growth/stasis/good health.
And then there's interpreting the facts. We could be wrong you know. None of us is all-knowing, and that's the point of bringing up predictions made 40 years ago about the health of the hobby. They were wrong then, and we could be wrong now.
I offer counter arguments not because I'm sticking my head in the sand as you suggest, but to point out you also are biased and are chosing to ignore data that doesn't support your view.
My honest view is the reality is somewhere in the middle -- it's not as awful as you suggest, nor does it have a rosey future of great growth ahead of it some are hoping.
I do believe the hobby is destined to shrink somewhat in the decades ahead, but not nearly as rapidly as some fear -- the huge interest in Thomas and Polar Express shows there is still a huge fascination with trains among the public. I also believe the dynamics of the hobby will change, making it so that modelers pursue it somewhat differently than they have in the past -- but it will not die.
I see the internet working to our advantage, allowing a slowly shrinking modeler base to keep in touch and keep passion high -- and the internet fosters a cheap mom-and-pop business model since you can reach your market for next to nothing. I expect a good supply of hobby products we enjoy now to somewhat continue, thanks to the internet.
To summarize, if you are honest with all the data (and not ignoring data that doesn't agree with your bias), neither gloom and doom nor wonderful and rosey are supported as the future of the hobby. The hobby is most certainly changing and will be pursued differently in the years ahead. But it isn't going to die any more than WWII aircraft modeling has died because the prototype no longer exists. And the internet has breathed new life into slot cars, so I expect the internet to likewise breath lots of life into the model railroading hobby in the years ahead.
Just this morning I was doing some internet shopping for the following products. I'm not sure where all these places are, some are in California and on in Wyoming, but most of the shipping charges was about $7-9 give or take. Here's what I was looking for and who had what prices. Please add more if you know some place for less.
Items: All Nickel Silver except the roadbed of course.
3 Atlas #6 Left Code 100
1 Atlas #6 Right Code 100
1 Atlas #4 Left Code 100
25pc Midwest Cork Roadbed
5 3' Altas Superflex flex track
NHS hobbies had the best price over all: $76.26 Some items on sale
Atlas.com was second with: $82.45 But would not calculate shipping until order was placed.
Local LHS Gene's Trains: $86.04 This of course has no shipping because it's local.
Cherry Creek Hobbies: $103.00 This had the highest shipping at $9.75
And last was Go Hobbies. Inc. $108.34 Just a little too pricy.
I know there's probably a dozen other places that I missed or just did not list. One thing I will say though is that it seemed that for as big as Wathers is they were the most expensive. I would think that the bigger or more popular companies would be able to sell at better prices just do to shear product movement.
Just my
That was wierd, just as I finished this post I experience Da-Ja-Vue.
With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples?
David
DavidH wrote: With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples? David
Home theater, GQ, Powder, Details, Esquires, Field and stream, Motor Trend, Guns and Ammo, etc. All of these magazines are between ten and twenty-two dollars for twelve issues. I havn't found one that is over twenty-five dollars.
tormadel wrote:I get my PC Gamer Magazine for $19.95 a year, but that is also the teaser price. Cover price on the things are $8.95 ea. And you can find subscriptions to MR and things cheaper if you browse the net. MR's website subscription is $42, but I found a clearing house selling the subscription for $24. I can easily stomach that.
(my emphasis added)
I used to subscribe to PC gamer and Computer Games, PCG was about $25/yr and CG was $40ish (but they had a CD than came with every issue of all the "latest" demos). My MR subscription was in the $30-$40 range. I'd say that's pretty fair, especially considering the "exclusive" online content for subscribers... I can only compare this to the mid-90's but the price hasn't gone up too much to the point of being "out of line".
As far as everything else goes, I would love to be able to buy the $4000 brass BLI locos, or even the $400 ones from BLI/P2K/etc... but that's just not in the cards. So I'm going to settle for the $150 Bowser kits that start out at "pretty close" and go from there...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Additional 2 cents from me. My father owned a fair number of brass HO locos. He got them mail order and at swap meets. I don't think very many of them were NEW, slightly used I believe. Some of them were really pretty some of them less so. And almost none of them he had were ever painted. But the bottomline I'm getting to is, they all ran like crap, if they ran at all. Dad seemed to think they were too expensive to paint, but who wants to run the metallic & No name railroad?
So in my humble opinion for the price I would always go with quality plastic over brass. The only reason I even look at brass is to try and find a model of locomotive I can't find in plastic.
I would really like a EL SDP45 or 2. But with the price of even plastic models today I am horribly afriad to trust my dubious kitbashing skills.
MR is higher than magazines in other fields. Many of these want high circulation for higher advertsing rates so they keep their subscription rates low. There's a lot more folks playing computer games than building model railroads so that works for PCGamer and others. Personally, I enjoy MR and get more out of it than I do PCGamer.
S Gaugian is $36 a year for 6 issues each a lot smaller than MR. It also has a much smaller circulation than MR. But it's all S so it's worth it to me.
Enjoy
Paul
If you think that MR is expensive, try subscribing to an overseas model magazine. My subscription to Tetsudo Mokei Shumi costs me +- $200/year - more than some other people spend on the entire hobby!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
DavidH wrote: With all due respect, I'm not aware of too many glossy magazines with subscription rates of 12 to 20 dollars per year for 12 issues. I don't know what postage alone would be, but I am assuming it would have to be at least 50 cents per issue. Any examples?David
I just subscribed to Popular Photography & Imaging for three years, $38.00 to me in Canada. Can't beat that! Of course it's mostly ads, but the few articles are worth a little over one dollar per issue. Usually magazines to Canada are $15-20 more because of the postage.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
secondhandmodeler wrote:In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration. A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half. Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?
I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.
whitman500 wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:In all fairness, I should probably take the circulation numbers of magazines into consideration. A few of the magazines I cited have a circulation of a half million to a million and a half. Does anyone know the circulation numbers for Model Railroader?I'm not sure but 300K seems to stick in my mind as the approximate number of subscribers.
MR has about 150,000 circulation per issue.
AltoonaRailroader wrote: Just this morning I was doing some internet shopping for the following products. I'm not sure where all these places are, some are in California and on in Wyoming, but most of the shipping charges was about $7-9 give or take. Here's what I was looking for and who had what prices. Please add more if you know some place for less. Items: All Nickel Silver except the roadbed of course.3 Atlas #6 Left Code 1001 Atlas #6 Right Code 1001 Atlas #4 Left Code 10025pc Midwest Cork Roadbed5 3' Altas Superflex flex track NHS hobbies had the best price over all: $76.26 Some items on saleAtlas.com was second with: $82.45 But would not calculate shipping until order was placed. Local LHS Gene's Trains: $86.04 This of course has no shipping because it's local.Cherry Creek Hobbies: $103.00 This had the highest shipping at $9.75And last was Go Hobbies. Inc. $108.34 Just a little too pricy. I know there's probably a dozen other places that I missed or just did not list. One thing I will say though is that it seemed that for as big as Wathers is they were the most expensive. I would think that the bigger or more popular companies would be able to sell at better prices just do to shear product movement. Just my That was wierd, just as I finished this post I experience Da-Ja-Vue.
Although Walthers does sell items at sale and MSRP prices direct to the consumer, since Walthers is also a supplier to almost every train shop in the US, they are aware that they can't really sell at "street" prices because then they would be competing against their own customers... the train shops who use Walthers as a distributor. So they generally sell at MSRP. Largeness doesn't really have anything to do with volume and pricing in this case.
secondhandmodeler wrote:I take the one and only post comment back. Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20. I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines. You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high.
Uhm. By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month. The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95. I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine.
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
Arjay1969 wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:I take the one and only post comment back. Most magazines, whether specialized or not, run between $12 and $20. I almost fell over when I saw $43 for twelve magazines. You can't tell me that doesn't sound a little high. Uhm. By those figures, it works out to $3.58 a month. The cover price for MR (I have the current issue sitting in front of me) is $5.95. I don't consider that to be high for a specialty magazine.
I usually don't dive into these opinion type threads, but for my two cents. I just make do with what I got. If I can't afford it , I don't get it. Hobbies are nice but they are just that. I certainly don't try to keep up with the Jones's. I have disposable income that some would say is large , but I'm not going to spend it all on a hobby.
Yes some parts of the hobby are expensive , DCC is one, for my part. I could go out today and buy a great system, but I choose not too. I'd rather use that money for other things hobby related and non-hobby related. maybe someday I'll get the bug to buy that DCC system , I even dropped one of the RR mags , I felt two was a waste. I kept MR so you can guess the one I dropped.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Bob, I do note that Popular Photography has a circulation of >400,000 per month, and, as you say, they are mostly ads. Also, their ads are coming from some big dollar broad consumer market companies, so their cost recovery from sales compared to the advertising dollars is probably a lot less important. Thsy need high circulation to keep their advertising revenue up. I don't think the MR market is quite so dynamic.