Some guys watch that horse for any signs of life, and if they see the slightest twitch, out come the boots again. They want to be absolutely sure....you know? One more kick isn't going to hurt if it has gone to that great corral in the sky.
It's all about entitlement. Some guys seem to feel that they're entitled to better treatment from those nasty manufacturers, distributers, dealers, and anyone else who stands in the way of their entitlement to trains that cost as much today as they did back in '74.
There! Did you see that? I could have sworn there was a little twitch there.
I have to agree with those that feel other hobbies are just as costly as the MRR hobby. Really, as I see it, the hobby can be just as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be.
Early on in this thread it was mentioned that this same topic has come up many times before, yet the topic still seems to get a lot of reads and posts. Either this is an interesting topic for lots of people or we are all collectively "flogging a dead horse". Perhaps it's time to accept our differences of opinion and let the horse rest? Lets start a new thread where we can discuss methods of doing things on a budget. Like using real dirt rather than buying ground cover. Making your own ground foam out of old foam rubber and latex paint...etc.
Remember when Atlas brought out their rs-3 in '83 and wanted the outrageous sum of.....$45 ? I thought then, "it better be a good engine for that kind of money!!" I do wonder though how a new person to the hobby could get started "from scratch". No more $10 Athearn engines and $5 cars at the hobby shop.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING, grumblers and mentors.
Having read all of these posts today, I have a few things to add.
First there is your Must and Wants list. I gave up smoking even though I loved cigars, I quite booze, except for a glass of wine with my saturday night steak (for health reasons, of course). I gave up golf and fishing, although I have all the lures I will ever need and only have to buy a license. I am driving a 1988 Suburban, I don't NEED a new car. Get the point, I concentrate on what I NEED, not what a might want, if I could afford it.
Second, what are your resources. If you are on fixed income, they can be finite. Mine were, until I learned a new profession after retirement which has enabled me to exercise more of my wants after my musts have been achieved. Get a job. Working 20 hours a week as a bag boy at the local super will get you $150 a week to splurge. Or, for you retirees, Wally Word and others employ greeters, if you still know how to smile, that is.
Third, do it yourself. I lay my own track, I am building my own switches using Fast Tracks, I scratch build all of my structures. I make my own signals, and track occupancy detectors. If you don't know how, LEARN!
Model Railroading is a VERY instructional hobby. One can learn wiring, soldering, carpentry, and a host of other techiques that can serve well over the years. Now, I don't have to call a plumber or electrician, I can do all of that myself and save a lot of money I can put to better use.
In this world, you make your own bed, but you don't have to just lie in it.
Grog wrote: I really have to speak my mind here...With 28 years of Auto/Light truck experience I can tell you, for a fact, we (mechanics)are underpaid. We buy our own tools (I personally have about $50,000 in tools). We get the snot beat out of us everyday. We literally bleed from doing our job. No one is happy to see us. In the northeast of Ohio we have to deal with temperatures ranging from sub-zero to over 95 degrees. Rain, snow, road salt, and even dead animals that people have hit or run over. We use torches to burn off rusted and siezed bolts, exhaust systems, and parts that no longer have a hex head from all the corrosion all the while breathing in noxious fumes and dealing with fluids that cause cancer. My back is shot , wrists have carpal tunnel, knees and feet are always sore, hands are a little arthritec, hearing is going and to top it all off....we get paid less...let me repeat that...less than any other trade.I personally make $22.50 an hour, pay part of my medical insurance and have to make my own retirement plans. I am also at the top of my field with no major raises in sight. A top technician will earn from $20.00-$25.00. I can not even afford to purchase one of the new vehicles I repair. We fix the things that the engineers did not design right, the manufacturers did not build right and the assemblers did not put together right. We fix them. I do not complain about my job..it is what I chose. This is not meant to be harsh so please do not take it that way. Yes, it is expensive to have your vehicle fixed but believe me when I tell you that it is going to get way worse. The old timers are getting out and no one is replacing them. Who would do this job for that kind of pay/benefit. A dealer charges $90.00 an hour and the tech gets about 1/4 of that.I have never sounded off like this before and appologize if it is inappropriate but people really have no idea what a technician does.I do agree that model trains are getting expensive but no more so than anything else.
I really have to speak my mind here...
With 28 years of Auto/Light truck experience I can tell you, for a fact, we (mechanics)are underpaid. We buy our own tools (I personally have about $50,000 in tools). We get the snot beat out of us everyday. We literally bleed from doing our job. No one is happy to see us. In the northeast of Ohio we have to deal with temperatures ranging from sub-zero to over 95 degrees. Rain, snow, road salt, and even dead animals that people have hit or run over. We use torches to burn off rusted and siezed bolts, exhaust systems, and parts that no longer have a hex head from all the corrosion all the while breathing in noxious fumes and dealing with fluids that cause cancer. My back is shot , wrists have carpal tunnel, knees and feet are always sore, hands are a little arthritec, hearing is going and to top it all off....we get paid less...let me repeat that...less than any other trade.
I personally make $22.50 an hour, pay part of my medical insurance and have to make my own retirement plans. I am also at the top of my field with no major raises in sight. A top technician will earn from $20.00-$25.00. I can not even afford to purchase one of the new vehicles I repair. We fix the things that the engineers did not design right, the manufacturers did not build right and the assemblers did not put together right. We fix them.
I do not complain about my job..it is what I chose. This is not meant to be harsh so please do not take it that way. Yes, it is expensive to have your vehicle fixed but believe me when I tell you that it is going to get way worse. The old timers are getting out and no one is replacing them. Who would do this job for that kind of pay/benefit. A dealer charges $90.00 an hour and the tech gets about 1/4 of that.
I have never sounded off like this before and appologize if it is inappropriate but people really have no idea what a technician does.
I do agree that model trains are getting expensive but no more so than anything else.
Grog, you have generated what I feel is one of the most eloquent compositions this forum has ever received in the nearly three years that I have been a member. Thank-you for posting your thoughts....very nicely stated, and it has given me a new understanding and appreciation for your trade.
I think One Track Mind was not suggesting that his observation is true, but used it as an illustration about complaining, in general. Perhaps he will return and offer his own explanation...paticularly if I misspeak on his behalf.
In any event, I understand your statement, and why you made it, and it was most well said.
-Crandell
tstage wrote:The bottom line: MRRing can be as expensive as you want it to be. There are always ways to save money if you:Take the time to hunt for bargainsConsider and try scratch-buidling Look at the overall concept of your layout and determine what is "necessary"
The bottom line: MRRing can be as expensive as you want it to be. There are always ways to save money if you:
Good point Tom, and the three rules I have to live by to be in the hobby. With two daughters who have constant needs and wants, my real RR spending is somewhat curtailed. The girls enjoy helping me and it's good quality time together.
As far as the cost, I don't think that it's that bad, and like someone else mentioned, it's as expensive as you want it to be. Between shows and what I run across, I spend less than $500.00 per year. I don't buy online, but I've lurked in and out of Ebay for some time now and I'm thinking about getting my feet wet.
I'd love to have a nice DCC system with a couple of new locos to use with it, but it's a long term goal for the layout.
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
Autobus Prime wrote:...-Scratchbuild. Follow articles in old magazines, when scratchbuilding used more stock material. E.L. Moore is your friend. E.L. Moore is awesome. I got into scratchbuilding in my younger days, motivated by some Raymond F. Yates books at the library, and the book HOW TO RUN A RAILROAD. ...
...
-Scratchbuild. Follow articles in old magazines, when scratchbuilding used more stock material. E.L. Moore is your friend. E.L. Moore is awesome. I got into scratchbuilding in my younger days, motivated by some Raymond F. Yates books at the library, and the book HOW TO RUN A RAILROAD. ...
Some of the old books like Easy-to-build Model Railroad Structures, Easy-to-build Model Railroad Freight Cars, and others show up at train shows.
Enjoy
Paul
Autobus Prime wrote:Folks:I don't spend a lot on model railroading. $75/sq ft? I'd feel really foolish if I spent $10. For me, this is a cheap hobby.-Buy track from train shows, clean it up, and use it. Replace it with good stuff as finance allows. When tearing down a layout, carefully save the old track and other reusable stuff.-Buy used equipment from train shows. Be careful, but soon you will develop the skill needed to sort out the junk, and to get the other stuff working. -Model a laid-back shortline or lightly used section of a big road. Buy a few good engines and a few good cars and have fun. Don't worry about amassing a lot.-Scratchbuild. Follow articles in old magazines, when scratchbuilding used more stock material. E.L. Moore is your friend. E.L. Moore is awesome. I got into scratchbuilding in my younger days, motivated by some Raymond F. Yates books at the library, and the book HOW TO RUN A RAILROAD. I built whole cities of cereal box cardboard, packing bubbles, and paper for a fraction of the cost of a single manufactured structure. Right now, most of my buildings are printed-out Paintbrush art, glued to cardboard and assembled, so I can get going quickly.-Use stock materials. Don't buy the "hobby" products. Patching plaster is cheap. Krylon is cheap.-Don't try to emulate the Super Railroaders (TM). If you can have fun running a secondhand Lifelike sidewinder GP38 and a string of $2 Tyco cars from the train show, then do it, confounding the armchair philosophers.I do think the Way of Cheap needs to be promoted more. We see lots of costly this and that, $100 structure kits, because advertisers pay to give them exposure. A lot of the economical techniques have been forgotten, but they're not lost. The information is out there. Instead of fretting over cost, we should rediscover these techniques, bring them back, use them, and tell everyone else so we can all follow suit. The hobby needs its next E. L. Moore.The best thing about model RRing is that, once the RR is built, it doesn't cost a thing. Just keep running it and have fun, and add stuff when you get spare change.
Folks:
I don't spend a lot on model railroading. $75/sq ft? I'd feel really foolish if I spent $10. For me, this is a cheap hobby.
-Buy track from train shows, clean it up, and use it. Replace it with good stuff as finance allows. When tearing down a layout, carefully save the old track and other reusable stuff.
-Buy used equipment from train shows. Be careful, but soon you will develop the skill needed to sort out the junk, and to get the other stuff working.
-Model a laid-back shortline or lightly used section of a big road. Buy a few good engines and a few good cars and have fun. Don't worry about amassing a lot.
-Scratchbuild. Follow articles in old magazines, when scratchbuilding used more stock material. E.L. Moore is your friend. E.L. Moore is awesome. I got into scratchbuilding in my younger days, motivated by some Raymond F. Yates books at the library, and the book HOW TO RUN A RAILROAD. I built whole cities of cereal box cardboard, packing bubbles, and paper for a fraction of the cost of a single manufactured structure. Right now, most of my buildings are printed-out Paintbrush art, glued to cardboard and assembled, so I can get going quickly.
-Use stock materials. Don't buy the "hobby" products. Patching plaster is cheap. Krylon is cheap.
-Don't try to emulate the Super Railroaders (TM). If you can have fun running a secondhand Lifelike sidewinder GP38 and a string of $2 Tyco cars from the train show, then do it, confounding the armchair philosophers.
I do think the Way of Cheap needs to be promoted more. We see lots of costly this and that, $100 structure kits, because advertisers pay to give them exposure. A lot of the economical techniques have been forgotten, but they're not lost. The information is out there. Instead of fretting over cost, we should rediscover these techniques, bring them back, use them, and tell everyone else so we can all follow suit. The hobby needs its next E. L. Moore.
The best thing about model RRing is that, once the RR is built, it doesn't cost a thing. Just keep running it and have fun, and add stuff when you get spare change.
One Track Mind wrote: I wonder if there is a forum where you can go to and gripe about the high cost of automotive mechanics.Why, I remember when they used to charge less than 50 dollars an hour for labor.
I wonder if there is a forum where you can go to and gripe about the high cost of automotive mechanics.
Why, I remember when they used to charge less than 50 dollars an hour for labor.
loathar wrote: selector wrote: shayfan84325 wrote: ... I've built some very nice ground throws out of brass. They work great and I can make a half dozen for a couple of bucks in an afternoon. If you're interested, I'll tell you how it's done...Phil (shay fan)Phil, I can't believe that you don't have 16 replies in the enthusiastic affirmative...it defies credibility. So, I'll speak for my lonesome and say, "Yes, please!"-Crandell I missed that one! Please! Let's see a "how to"
selector wrote: shayfan84325 wrote: ... I've built some very nice ground throws out of brass. They work great and I can make a half dozen for a couple of bucks in an afternoon. If you're interested, I'll tell you how it's done...Phil (shay fan)Phil, I can't believe that you don't have 16 replies in the enthusiastic affirmative...it defies credibility. So, I'll speak for my lonesome and say, "Yes, please!"-Crandell
shayfan84325 wrote: ... I've built some very nice ground throws out of brass. They work great and I can make a half dozen for a couple of bucks in an afternoon. If you're interested, I'll tell you how it's done...Phil (shay fan)
... I've built some very nice ground throws out of brass. They work great and I can make a half dozen for a couple of bucks in an afternoon. If you're interested, I'll tell you how it's done...
Phil (shay fan)
Phil, I can't believe that you don't have 16 replies in the enthusiastic affirmative...it defies credibility. So, I'll speak for my lonesome and say, "Yes, please!"
I missed that one! Please! Let's see a "how to"
Me Three!! I need lotsa ground throws!
Jarrell
Fred,
I have sort of the same philosoply. A DPM kit can take me sometimes a bunch of hours to complete if I take my time to make sure everything is square, do a nice paint job, get the mortar lines to look like (seems to take forever!), do some weathering etc etc. Done that way, the cost per hour can be very low indeed.
Avis wrote: Ever since I was introduced into this hobby, I was 8 years old or now at 54 years I would have to say that this hobby has always cost me to the level I have wished to be in the next income bracket. Models that were and still wanted have always cost me more that I could afford. And I still do not have a layout...It would be nice to have one of the contests prizes to be a staff of carpenters to come and get the train room ready and get a person on the right track to start a layout.
A:
It's cheaper once you get that layout, any layout, seriously. Plunk down a single track oval with a couple of spurs and tell yourself that your railroad has to move cars from one to the other, and you'll have a blast. Don't worry about gathering up supplies for that perfect model railroad.
I've saved goo-gobs of money by following the above.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Trekkie-Don't even get me started on the fish tank thing... Trains don't die if you don't clean their tanks and forget to buy food for them.
I saw that show on bottled water. What a joke!
smitty311 wrote:Does anyone else ever get frustrated by the cost of MRR'ing? I mean you really can't have a nice layout unless you spend a boat load of money. For example, if you want to make a nice yard, you need to spend a fortune on TO's, then you need switches, or ground throws, than you need coupling/ uncoupling.I hope people don't accuse me of not being serious about this hobby because of my complaints. In fact I am very serious about this hobby and that is why the high cost upsets me so much. I have plenty of room for a potentially great layout, but it is really a dream because I just can't afford much, and it really is discouraging.Well sorry about the crybaby attitude, but I am just starting to get overwhelmed. Every time I spend money on something new it leads me down another road where I have to spend more money.Any one else have an opinion about the high cost of MRR'ing.Later guys,Smitty
Does anyone else ever get frustrated by the cost of MRR'ing? I mean you really can't have a nice layout unless you spend a boat load of money. For example, if you want to make a nice yard, you need to spend a fortune on TO's, then you need switches, or ground throws, than you need coupling/ uncoupling.
I hope people don't accuse me of not being serious about this hobby because of my complaints. In fact I am very serious about this hobby and that is why the high cost upsets me so much. I have plenty of room for a potentially great layout, but it is really a dream because I just can't afford much, and it really is discouraging.
Well sorry about the crybaby attitude, but I am just starting to get overwhelmed. Every time I spend money on something new it leads me down another road where I have to spend more money.
Any one else have an opinion about the high cost of MRR'ing.
Later guys,
Smitty
I'm going to take you seriously instead of assuming it's just a rant.
In 1976, I had a maximum of $25 per month for model railroading, and we couldn't really afford that. We were newlyweds and quickly going broke paying an exorbitant rent of $225 for a 2 bedroom duplex. In fact, when the lease was up we had to move out into a 2 bedroom cottage on the wrong side of town where rent was $165. The 2nd bedroom was too small for a 4x8 so I had to cut it down to a 4x6.
The point I'm trying to make is that constraints on our hobby can come from 3 different areas - space, money, and/or time. Some of us suffer from a lack of all 3. And a real lack of any one - space, money, or time - means you probably shouldn't max out on the other 2.
In my example, both space and money were very limited, time a lot less so. So my objective became to reduce my cost per hour of hobby time. Before kids, I could easily spend about 8-10 hours a week on model railroading when my ship was in port (about 50% of the time). So I had to find ways to enjoy model railroading while spending less than $1.50 per hour.
I did this by keeping to a small layout plan, hand-laying track, and building from kits. Even though I had next to no experience, even fewer skills as a craftsman, and had to buy tools out of the allowance, I had a blast. Yes, it took me 2 months to save enough money for the benchwork materials and tools. Another month went for the initial track laying supplies. My locomotives were a garage sale Mantua 0-4-0 and AHM RS-3 until I had saved enough to buy an MDC Climax kit - which promptly became my primary loco. I brush painted everything as an airbrush was out of my reach. The power pack was the piece of junk that came with the AHM set; I built a tethered walk-around replacement throttle from a circuit in Model Railroader, and used the power pack as the power supply. Scenery was made from cheap plaster of paris over the cheapest window screen. Structures were typically Campbell kits - the $/hour was pretty good with them, and they came out nicely.
Small layouts work well for either limited time and/or limited budget because you can enjoy yourself rather than fretting about filling all the holes on a large layout. A small layout only needs 1 or 2 locomotives, so you can make sure they are good locos - the best you can make them. 20 cars is often sufficient for an HO 4x8, so you can take the time to build them from kits. Spend some more time detailig them to the nth degree. Handlaid turnouts (less than 20) are an achieveable proposition, and not overwhelming.
Conversely, if you use commercial turnouts (or handlaid, too) you buy just a couple at a time and build your layout progressively. Build a simple oval with a spur or 2, and 1 passing track (3-4 turnouts) for the first phase. Get a locomotive running, build 6-7 cars, build some scenery, and enjoy operations. When you reached this stage, you are ready to add some more track, scenery, and rolling stock. When the initial rectangle is reasonably complete, add an extension.
If you look at building a layout as a journey, instead of a milestone to be achieved as soon as possible, the limited funds are no longer such an obstacle.
Will I ever have the ultimate full basement layout that is good enough to make the pages of MR? Not likely! Will I have fun with my current 88" by 128" space, and $50/month? You bet!
yours in model railroading
Fred W
shayfan84325 wrote: I've found that the cost of scratch building is much lower.
I've found that the cost of scratch building is much lower.
I just finished handlaying the track on my layout late last year. I haven't done an in-depth cost analysis on the work, but I'm really not sure I saved that much over laying pre-fab track. BUT, it took a lot longer, so my cost per hour spent was significantly lower.
If your goals are to build a large layout in a short time, you will spend many monies on pre-fab track, pre-fab structures, pre-fab scenery, etc . . . If, however, you realize that size does not matter, and that the true pleasure comes from taking your time, then building from scratch is a good way to go. Of course, the best way to achieve your MRR goals is to find your own balance point between the two extremes.
Good Luck,
I agree that kits and RTR stuff are expensive. I've found that the cost of scratch building is much lower. For example, I've built some very nice ground throws out of brass. They work great and I can make a half dozen for a couple of bucks in an afternoon. If you're interested, I'll tell you how it's done. You can also save a lot of money by hand-laying track. Granted, it takes a little more time, but the results are great.
One last suggestion, shop for used stuff. I find the ebay is my favorite hobby store. A lot of the time used items just need cleaning and a little paint.
Good luck.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Harely? This a new model from Davidaughter Motor Co.?
Looking at Harley prices I cannot see how anyone who bought one could complain about the price of almost anything on this good earth. Did your purchase price include that ultimate option the dealer's couple of thousand add on to MSRP?
Jon
on30francisco wrote: Don Gibson wrote: "When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..." Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?Bottled water? Proof of "what the market will bear." Some people in this area will pay over three dollars for a 12oz bottle of water. I'll stick to tap water.
Don Gibson wrote: "When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..." Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?
"When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..."
Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?
Bottled water? Proof of "what the market will bear." Some people in this area will pay over three dollars for a 12oz bottle of water. I'll stick to tap water.
If you stick to tap water console yourself, you're drinking the same stuff that's in most bottled water. NY Times did a piece some time ago about "waters" bottled by Coke and Pepsi(forget what the marketing guys came up with for names-Dursani? Aqua Fina?) and only difference from tap water is some subtle taste added and additional filtering. That's it. I think the bottled water thing was started by the offspring of the chap who came out with the "pet rock" years ago.
smitty- I read this post last night, but didn't think I'd have anything to add that other's had not already mentioned. And I'm sure that someone did say this, but I'll repeat it- if you can, hit any and all train shows, swap meets and the such. I have always found pretty reasonable prices there, and as I am one cheap fella, this helps out.
If you don't have access to meets, get a wish list up and order as much as your wallet will stand at one time, that way you only pay shipping once.
And for a topic that everyone says has been beat to death, well, 4 pages of responses seem to indicate there is quite a bit of life left in it!
Just how old are you? Just kidding, have to offset some of that ugliness!
richg1998 wrote: tstage wrote: Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...? Tom are like that. They are bored and need something to rant about, anything. I heard the same complaints back in the 1960s. History always repeats itself.rich
tstage wrote: Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...? Tom
Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...?
are like that. They are bored and need something to rant about, anything. I heard the same complaints back in the 1960s. History always repeats itself.
rich
But when history does repeat itself and it is your real time experience it has a lot more impact.
jon
tomikawaTT wrote: Quick, name a low-cost hobby!Actually, there is no reason to spend more than you can afford. Homemade equivalents can be substituted for a lot of commercial products at a fraction of the cost, train show bargains can be repaired, painted and weathered, old is not necessarily bad.The one key ingredient that seems to be lacking in a lot of this is PATIENCE! As a nation, we have gotten used to the idea that we have to have all of the latest and greatest RIGHT NOW! Bah, humbug. If you can't afford the $$$ (fillintheblank) then buy, make or otherwise finagle what you can afford. Be flexible in your planning. It is very possible to have a lot of model railroading fun without draining the checking account and maxing all the credit cards.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Quick, name a low-cost hobby!
Actually, there is no reason to spend more than you can afford. Homemade equivalents can be substituted for a lot of commercial products at a fraction of the cost, train show bargains can be repaired, painted and weathered, old is not necessarily bad.
The one key ingredient that seems to be lacking in a lot of this is PATIENCE! As a nation, we have gotten used to the idea that we have to have all of the latest and greatest RIGHT NOW! Bah, humbug. If you can't afford the $$$ (fillintheblank) then buy, make or otherwise finagle what you can afford. Be flexible in your planning. It is very possible to have a lot of model railroading fun without draining the checking account and maxing all the credit cards.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Low cost hobby = Contradiction in terms.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Heartland Division CB and Q wrote:Recent changes to exchange rates are running up costs of imports. Much is from China that has higher inflation than USA and they are allowing their currancy to increase in its exchange rates (not as fast as US would like, however) .
The exchange rate with China has changed less than 5% this year and only 8% since the beginning of 2006. That is hardly cause for high inflation. It is actually less than their GDP growth and only slightly higher than ours.