Chuck.....it is very refreshing to to see a young man who is well grounded. If we had more people like you in the States, then personal credit card debt, and home forclosures due to loans that should never have been issued, would not be the terrible mess it is today.
We Americans are a consumer nation, we don't know what the word "save" means. We want it NOW like kids in a candy store so we charge it. We will pay a terrible price for this I fear.
Pay for it when you have the cash, or least pay the credit card balance each month, then the MRR will grow at a controlled pace.
Advertisers make big bucks convincing people to spend more than they should for things they don't really need. Take HDTV. Unless the programming on HDTV is of remarkably better quality (and the commercials considerably less obnoxious) I'll just limp along with my stone age CRT, which is usually turned off anyway.
Sure things were cheaper in the "Good old days." Like the mimimum wage, which was 75 cents/hour when I got my first paycheck. Back then I bought what I could afford. Frequently, that was nothing. Today, with a LOT more income to counterbalance my much higher living expenses, I actually have quite a bit of disposable income to use for model railroading, What I don't have is the urge to rush down to buy the latest and greatest simply because - It's NEW!!! I don't mistake, "I'd like to have that," for, "I HAVE to have that." My world won't end if I don't have the new (fillintheblank) with all the bells and whistles (and chuff and hiss and coupler clash...)
Since somebody brought up SUVs, I will concede that my wife drives one - a Toyota RAV4. When age, arthritis and artificial knees have done their number on flexibility, there are things to be said for a vehicle that doesn't have to be put on like a pair of pants. I drive a pickup for the same reason (except that my knees aren't artificial - yet.) If the Green Weenies don't like it, too bad.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
TA462 wrote:Once you see HDTV you just gotta have it. There is no better way to watch movies or sports on TV then in HD. I'm a technology junkie, I can't get enough of it. Wait until you watch a Blu Ray movie for the first time, its just incredible.
Once you see HDTV you just gotta have it. There is no better way to watch movies or sports on TV then in HD. I'm a technology junkie, I can't get enough of it. Wait until you watch a Blu Ray movie for the first time, its just incredible.
I heard that from a lot of people but when I finally got it, I wasn't all that impressed. Yes, the picture is better but I don't think it is that much better. I got it because it clearly is going to be the standard so why not get it now.
Paul3 wrote: Did we have an injection of "Old Man"-itis here, or what? (old man voice) "Back in my day, model trains where cheap and plentiful. You could get anything you want whenever you wanted it, as long as you didn't want much. And of course we never did. In my day we didn't need quality products. We got ingots of zamak that needed hours of filing and milling to even look like a boiler, and then we added our own detail parts made from from wood and brass wire, none of this "plastic" junk. Hold on, dangnabbit, I'm not finished! Then we wound our own motor cores using motor wire from Model T's, and machined our own worm gears our of old brass candlesticks. When we were done, we'd take it to show all our friends at the corner hobby shop (and there was one on every street corner back then, by gum!). All of them would say it was the best modeling they ever did see, none of this "it's not accurate" hooey. Why? Because they were all better people back then, you whippersnapper! They were friendlier, better to be around, and polite! Unlike you kids these days. You kids...we didn't need "ready-to-run", so you shouldn't either! Bah! We did everything ourselves, and that's the way it was, and we liked it."(/old man voice)Sound familiar? Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Did we have an injection of "Old Man"-itis here, or what?
(old man voice) "Back in my day, model trains where cheap and plentiful. You could get anything you want whenever you wanted it, as long as you didn't want much. And of course we never did. In my day we didn't need quality products. We got ingots of zamak that needed hours of filing and milling to even look like a boiler, and then we added our own detail parts made from from wood and brass wire, none of this "plastic" junk. Hold on, dangnabbit, I'm not finished! Then we wound our own motor cores using motor wire from Model T's, and machined our own worm gears our of old brass candlesticks. When we were done, we'd take it to show all our friends at the corner hobby shop (and there was one on every street corner back then, by gum!). All of them would say it was the best modeling they ever did see, none of this "it's not accurate" hooey. Why? Because they were all better people back then, you whippersnapper! They were friendlier, better to be around, and polite! Unlike you kids these days. You kids...we didn't need "ready-to-run", so you shouldn't either! Bah! We did everything ourselves, and that's the way it was, and we liked it."(/old man voice)
Sound familiar?
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul, Man you had it easy back then. In my day the railroad hadn't even been invented yet so it was really hard to do model railroading. Just took a chisel to a block of stone, cut away every thing that didn't look like a steam engine, which was hard to do being that the steam engine hadn't been invented yet, and there was my first scratchbuilt model. Of course pushing the stone up the hill in 3 feet of snow to get to the cave was rather tough, but, as you said, we liked it!
TA462 wrote:If your happy with what you have then great but don't stereo type certain people because they can afford certain items that maybe some people can't. Thats not fair is it?
Wow, Dave! I managed to nail them all...AND stick my foot into my mouth at the same time! Perhaps, I was a bit hasty and too tongue-in-cheek in my "generalization" of SUV drivers, as a whole. Forgive me.
Dave, what I was attempting to say in my previous post (and, obviously, didn't do a good job of) was that there are those who might not necessarily be able to afford a larger vehicle but choose to drive one anyhow - for whatever reason. The operative word here is "afford".
Granted, there are good and necessary reasons to driving larger vehicles or buying the things that we do. That's something that each one of us has to determine individually. And, sometimes, I would like to have a (not necessarily larger but) "taller" vehicle so that I can see around the SUVs and Minivans that inevitably park on either side of me when I or my wife go shopping. (Makes it quite challenging to pull out of a parking lot or into traffic. ) However, at this moment in time, that's not a "luxury" we can afford to make.
Dave - and I say this with all sincerity and ungrudgingly: All power to you that you can afford those nicities in life and enjoy them. Again, they are ones that can make life nicer, safer and more enjoyable for us. However, I still stand by my statement that, in general, there are a number of things that we think we can't live without but can. (And, Dave, I'm not implying that those items that you mentioned necessarily all into that category.) Buying what we want and need all comes down to a matter of choice and, sometimes, sacrifice.
Dave, I don't know if that clears things up or not. Sorry again for the gross generalizations.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tormadel wrote:Basically any hobby is going to get expensive. But I do miss being able to buy a decent Athearn locomotive for $25. And then worry about spending a few extra bucks to detail it later. It wasn't 100% accurate but it looked better then the life-like or Bachmann toy trainset engines.
Yeah, and I'd like to buy gas for 35 cents/gallon, hamburger for 25 cents/pound, a new car for under $2000 (1968 Datsun 510 retailed for around $1800), a house for around $20,000 and so on. Those times are gone.
OTOH, my $700 advance purchase excursion flight to Auckland New Zealand in 1969 cost me the equivalent of nearly $4000 in today's dollars ($700 dollars then). And I thought I was getting off cheap.
Andre
Salty? hehe. I'm only 35 so I don't consider myself old. And having a good siozed layout was never cheap. But I had the oval track I did as a kid, so for me now its ig or nothing. I want that illusionary feeling that you are actually DOING something rather then just running a train in a circle.
UNIONPACIFIC4018 wrote:As my wife points out "all men's hobbies are exspensive"
My wifes hobby seems to be children and thats MORE Expensive.
Yes, incredible...but I'm "content" and can live with my $200 20" Toshiba - and it's paid for. Again, it depends what your "necessities" in life are. If an HDTV screen is a must, and you have only a certain amount of discretionary income at the end of each paycheck, then you have to consider what other things you can live without. The same goes for any other hobby and/or recreation.
Look how many folks ride around in Lincoln Navigators, Cadillac Escalades, and Hummers. I would dare to guess that the vast majority of them could just as well drive Corollas, Civics, and Cavaliers...and STILL get around adequately. I always wonder how and what they are sacrificing in order to look "stylish"; as they simultaneously drive and talk on their cell phones and cut people off in traffic.
Again, it all comes down to what you deem as important and "necessary". In today's society - for the most part - "necessities" are merely conveniences and luxuries that we've deemed important enough to us that we can not possibly fathom living without them and still be happy. That's exactly what the advertisers all want us to think.
Just my worth. I truly believe that there are less young people in the hobby than there was 25+ years ago. They have far to many diversions now that seem to be more preppy or whatever you want to call it, and they seem to have to appease their peers far more than when I was more (youthful).
If your minds are still kean, you should be able to remember that Kalmbach used to publish a magazine essentially just for them and it was called "Model Trains" It was a good introduction to the hobby as it was not a place for rivet counters and highlighted the work of the young folk or work that the young folk could do, being shown by someone with more experience. I'm sure that it was a business decsion to pull it as sales dropped and that would be because less youth were interested.
I got started through the Lionel 0-27 line up with my Father, but I contribute my ongoing interest in the hobby to "Model Trains" magazine because it showed me that I could build and do things and then other articles showed how I could improve on what I had done. It was a real growing process, education into the hobby, that I don't see today. Today the youth that are interested in MR, really have to work hard at it they don't have that opportunity to be lead gradually into it as some of us had.
I have never said it before , but a big "Thanks" to the old original staff at Kalmbach Publishing for assisting me in learning enough to have the desire to remain with this hobby throughout my life by what they offered to us through the now defunct "Model Trains" { and I still have those copies }
Johnboy out....................
James:1 Verse:5
The "Wobbly" has wobbled in my life for 57 years.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Marc_Magnus wrote: Hi,I am a belgian and modeling in Nscale american prototype, with steam power....Many people in Europe consider Train modeling as a luxury hobby.The consequence is the manufacturer difficulties to maintain there activity in a good financial potential even the biggest.
Hi,
I am a belgian and modeling in Nscale american prototype, with steam power.
...
Many people in Europe consider Train modeling as a luxury hobby.
The consequence is the manufacturer difficulties to maintain there activity in a good financial potential even the biggest.
Marc, thanks for your contribution...it is good to hear how things appear from modellers on the other side of the Atlantic.
I think your middle statement that I have included in the quote is very telling...even instructive. What it suggests to me is that the population no longer favours the type of "playing" represented, or afforded, by old-fashioned toys, whether they are electrified and sophisticated or not. Toy trains and other toys are no longer de rigueur. They have been supplanted by X-Box and other toys that are truly plug and play.
Many Dads, who would be the ones to help or to encourage their sons/odd daughter (hey, be nice...and realistic, readers!), want to spend their money, if they have any that is discretionary, on beer, gas, Bib Boy's Toys, and electronics...the latest 120cm LCD TV by Media Electronics, or a computer for gaming, Z-Box, and whatever the TV ads are flaming about this Christmas season. (Sorry, holiday season...)
To get to my point, even I would furrow my brow and say, "Snow-mobiling? Why that's a "luxury hobby" when snow mobiles cost me, per unit, what 12 DCC and Sound steamers and an entire layout would cost. My preference, my interest, lies in trains, not snowmobiles. So, I would tend to dismiss, indicating a bias, whatever costs as much or more money than what I have currently invested in toy trains in order to justify what I have spent. That is my double affirmation...I spend money better than those who buy snowmobiles, and I don't even spend as much as they do to have fun.
It's all about choices and priorities...for all of us. I have said this many times before. One person's luxury is another's garbage or self-indulgence. We will often use any number of terms and characterizations to feel better about our own self-indulgences.
One last time, we haven't had it so good as since the end of the Big Exercise in 45/46. Tons of money, and plenty of freedoms to spend it as we darned well please.
-Crandell
wrconstruction wrote: wow, this thread has opened my eyes to few things: i really need to become a little more frugal with my money. i'm up for a carer change this january where i'll be taking at least a 40% paycut (but my nervers will heal and headackes will go away) i generally dont throw things away, but i'm not quick to reuse when i can buy new and swipe the debit card, as in why deal with those kinda weathered 2x4's in yard, when new ones are only 3.00? i see it adds up, QUICK. If i would have saved all those 1 x scraps from job sites and picked up all those dropped and spilled boxes of screws, i could build my whole layout's bench work with out spending a DIME. all those peices of drywall i've thrown out (yeah it don't keep to well, but it's workable) all the partial rolls of insulation, the used light fixtures, ect, i would not be spending a dime on the basement remoldel...... well theres no use in crying over spilt milk, but if i could kick my self in the butt i would. i gues this is why they say hind sight is 20/20 ryan
wow, this thread has opened my eyes to few things: i really need to become a little more frugal with my money. i'm up for a carer change this january where i'll be taking at least a 40% paycut (but my nervers will heal and headackes will go away) i generally dont throw things away, but i'm not quick to reuse when i can buy new and swipe the debit card, as in why deal with those kinda weathered 2x4's in yard, when new ones are only 3.00? i see it adds up, QUICK.
If i would have saved all those 1 x scraps from job sites and picked up all those dropped and spilled boxes of screws, i could build my whole layout's bench work with out spending a DIME.
all those peices of drywall i've thrown out (yeah it don't keep to well, but it's workable) all the partial rolls of insulation, the used light fixtures, ect, i would not be spending a dime on the basement remoldel......
well theres no use in crying over spilt milk, but if i could kick my self in the butt i would. i gues this is why they say hind sight is 20/20
ryan
Ryan,I know a guy that built a "operators pit" type of layout using 36"x48" pallets.He added legs and then fasten the pallets together and covered it with Homasote.Looking at the layout you can't tell its made from pallets.His wife made a beautiful layout curtain..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Falls Valey RR:
"Half tempted to find me a wireless tower off the router and set up an account that way and tell AT&T to pack up thier bloated telephone bill and shove it."
I did just that a couple of years ago. I no longer have a hard wired phone. The spousal unit and I each have a cell phone. We don't miss the wall phone a bit.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Are you guys trying to catch up with the coffee shop? I see the number of posts are gaining ground.
Well in Europe we can say that train modeling is may be going to dissappear in the years coming because of course of cost but too by a little interest of the new generations.
Now only real modeler still like to model trains.
As you have seen with the master in europe, MARKLIN, they are many financial problems with the model manufacturer.
On the oder hand, train modeling is very expensive in europe, you can browse european catalog and see that no more ( N scale) steam model appears under the approximate 120 euros without DCC control, a car is around the 30euros each and a peco insulfrog turnout around a 20 euros piece without powering, a Lenz system is around 200, 250 euros with is options a decoder around the 40euros without sound; count an average 75 euros for a one with sound.
Remenber you need actually 1,45USD for one euro.
If you compare this by a game for a playstation you can cut the price in two.
Train modeling is very expensive in europe and especially for the youngsters.
On the other hand, I am modeling in Nscale american prototype and buying models in USA is very attractive for now for me.
With the overseas cost include I can receive a model of 100USD for an approximate 90euros.
So in epilog I think that the cost is very important especially for a hobby.
andrechapelon wrote: CNJ wrote: During the 1950's, when prices of many HO products, most notably locomotive kits and especially RTR examples, fell to previously unthinkably low levels, the hobby's size exploded by nearly a factor of ten. Of these, 20%, alone, were teenaged modelers. Most of them did not report having extreme difficulties in participating on a modest scale and many displayed worked at the same level as the adults (see how many older teens and 20-something folks authored MR and RMC articles in those days).Prices fell due to the influx and influence of relatively cheap r-t-r Japanese imports from the mid to late 50's as far as locos go coupled with the introduction of injection molded plastic kits for rolling stock (and the famous Globe/Athearn F-7). (Big Snip)
CNJ wrote: During the 1950's, when prices of many HO products, most notably locomotive kits and especially RTR examples, fell to previously unthinkably low levels, the hobby's size exploded by nearly a factor of ten. Of these, 20%, alone, were teenaged modelers. Most of them did not report having extreme difficulties in participating on a modest scale and many displayed worked at the same level as the adults (see how many older teens and 20-something folks authored MR and RMC articles in those days).
Prices fell due to the influx and influence of relatively cheap r-t-r Japanese imports from the mid to late 50's as far as locos go coupled with the introduction of injection molded plastic kits for rolling stock (and the famous Globe/Athearn F-7).
(Big Snip)
You haven't gotten your facts quite straight here, Andre. The price break-through came with the introduction of die-cast loco kits and then RTR die-cast locomotives by Varney, Mantua, Penn-Line and then English, all in the early 1950's. Previous to that, formed brass loco kits were the norm and much more expensive and labor intensive to build. Diecast, even RTR, locos sold in the early 50's for around a half the price of the earlier brass or mixed composition kits and at 1/10 the price of custombuilt, RTR, steamers.
Imported brass models began to appear widely around the mid 1950's, at first as very inexpensive, somewhat crude, Japanese imports, with many of the smaller examples being sold for just $9.95-$19.95. But this wasn't until well after die-cast had opened the flood gates of new hobbyists. It took several years before they even equalled the die-cast models in detail and their prices rose. IMP was the first to widely offer mid-priced imported brass, while Max Grey followed, selling top-of-the-line, super-detailed, stuff. PFM and the others all came later and dealt with high end models.
The explosion in the number of hobbyists in the early 1950's resulted mainly from the introduction of RTR and screw driver assemby, die-cast, loco kit, plus the Athearn, et al, shake-the-box plastic car kits, making the hobby accessible to the hords of less talented wouldbe modelers, not the other way round. Before the war you often needed a pretty well equipped shop to finish out an HO locomotive and be a practical hobbyist...or have really deep pockets to buy custombuilt engines from guys like Lobaugh. After 1950, just about anybody, even on a budget, could become a model railroader (and did!). MR gauged the size of the hobby at 20,000 modelers at war's end and well over 100,000 by the mid 1950's!
Another major factor in the hobby's growth were GI's returning from the war and opening hobby shops with their GI loans. Prior to the war, hobby shops handling scale model railroader supplies across the country could be counted on your fingers and toes. By the very early 1950's, MR at one point listed hobby shops nation-wide. There were 140+ in NYC alone, with over 100 shops each listed for several other major cities!
But we're getting pretty far from the thread's original intent now.
CNJ831
During the 1950's, when prices of many HO products, most notably locomotive kits and especially RTR examples, fell to previously unthinkably low levels, the hobby's size exploded by nearly a factor of ten. Of these, 20%, alone, were teenaged modelers. Most of them did not report having extreme difficulties in participating on a modest scale and many displayed worked at the same level as the adults (see how many older teens and 20-something folks authored MR and RMC articles in those days).
Prices fell due to the influx and influence of relatively cheap r-t-r Japanese imports from the mid to late 50's as far as locos go coupled with the introduction of injection molded plastic kits for rolling stock (and the famous Globe/Athearn F-7). When PFM introduced the Southern PS-4 in 1959, it was priced at $49.50 ($335 in today's inflated currency) and only needed painting. It also represented a specific prototype. My earlier Varney 4-6-2 example cost $57.50 in 1950 and it was a kit without a tender. While based on the Southern Pacific 4-6-2 of classes P-8 to P-10, the Varney was never sold as a specficially SP engine. Go back and check the mags. Prices didn't really start to fall until after the major importers of the era (PFM, Max Gray, had been in business long enough for it to be obvious that cheap (relatively) brass was going to stay. And then, of course, there was the perceived threat from the new rage of slotcars.
Right around 1959/1060 Mantua cut its prices on a number of loco kits, most notably the Pacific and the Mikado. In the process, they cheapened the product by dropping the excellent Pittman DC-71B motor and the enclosed gearbox for the cheaper motor found in the Big Six, Shifter, et. al. as well as open gearing. A Mantua Mike or Pacific from prior to the shift was an excellent runner. Not so good afterward.
Varney lowered the price on its "Casey Jones" and "Old Lady" at roughly the same time while also cheapening the product by going to a Japanese motor (vs. the Pittman DC-60 IIRC) and using non-metallic gears. I have a 1950 era "Casey Jones". The worm is steel, the gear is brass and it's got a Pittman motor. Varney didn't actually stay in business for much longer after that. I don't remember what happened to their other locomotives since I quit following their availability because I was drooling over brass that I might just possibly be able to afford eventually because my paper route netted me $30 or so/month.
As far as John English (Hobbyline) goes, I don't really remember what happened to them. I do remember seeing set in White Front discount stores (went belly up in the early 70's), but I think they were pretty much gone by Kennedy's inauguration or shortly thereafter.
Bowser pretty much kept offering the same old stuff they always had. Basically, their offerings were only the NYC K-11, the UP Challenger and the Heavy 4-8-2. Not a lot of variety there.
Model Die Casting did introduce a 2-6-2 around 1959-60, but it was nothing but the 1480 Class 4-4-2 boiler and the tender couple with a new chassis and 63" drivers. As a free-lance model, it wasn't too bad, but it bore only the faintest of resemblance to any actual Santa Fe 2-6-2.
Penn Line lowered their prices, but I don't recall that they downgraded the quality as much as Varney and Mantua. Both Penn Line and Varney went out of business in the early 60's and Bowser was sold. If it weren't for the people who bought Bowser, Penn Line and some of the Varney dies, all that stuff would be scarce as hen's teeth.
If it hadn't been for the likes of PFM, M.B. Austin, Max Gray, etc, the hobby market would probably be far different today. Perhaps it would be closer in concept to the British where you can still get exquisite kits from the likes of DJH and other manufacturers for prototype specific locomotives.
There was a time when I was seriously considering modeling the transition era Deutsche Bundesbahn because starting around the early 80's companies like ROCO, Fleischmann and Trix started producing models that were mass produced plastic but had brass level detail and superb running characteristics. I wonder why American manufacturers took so long to get the hint.
Enough.
I dont know about these last few posts. I recall a life where there was no internet, only good hobby shops that may or may not share information ahead of time about new products. What was on the shelf was what you bought unless you talked with one of those mail houses.
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Life in the hobby was simpler back then..Modelers was still enjoying the hobby without half the concerns if this or that was correct,hobby shops was the place to be on Saturday morning to look over the newest offerings and to meet friends,club's was still holding open houses and actually greeting their visitors.Hobby shop owners was actually friendlier back then and would share any hobby news..
Today a small group of friends gathering at the hobby shop on Saturday morning is frown upon by the younger modelers,the newer breed of hobby shop owners are all business or grumpy.
The majority of the clubs I visit the younger members are stand offish unlike the older heads that still greets visitors..
Any reason way the hobby is in growth trouble?
Speaking of phones..Mine is connected to the Internet cable and I can call anywhere in the U.S or Canada and talk till the cows come home for one monthly fee.
Today they push internet, wireless, celluar, HDTV etc. Technology. I have formed a humble opinion that there is sufficient technology and I need no more. So I resist buying that big HDTV because my computer's widescreen is capable of displaying it should I get TeeVee over the internet.
But I could program and run my choo choo with the computer as well. Pretty fancy. I remember when back in the 80's Cell Phones started to be sold and they were these massive bricks the size of a Bible and with a 6 foot antenna that would slice and break on everything and anything. Watching one of these people trying to walk a certain way pointing the cellphone and antenna towards the distance tower was humerous.
Now Cellphones are so common that it is possible to issue them to kindergardeners and allow them to grow up thinking these were a necessity of life. Never mind that ancient old telephone and it's wire to the base of the wall.
Im typing this over such a ancient telephone that costs more than my wife's cell does each month. Until someone explain to me why a dailtone, 911, long distance and regulatory taxes causes my (Minus DSL) land line to be more than cell costs per month I would be most appreciate it.
Half tempted to find me a wireless tower off the router and set up an account that way and tell AT&T to pack up thier bloated telephone bill and shove it.
Then cells would be a necessity now wouldnt it?
CNJ831,Well stated..
I will add this..If the hobby is so rosey why the WGH push back by those that stand to lose the most? As you may recall I have pointed that out several times.
Not a very good sign is it?
As far as the Boy Scott merit badge big deal..Like all badges they are earned..After the badge is obtain they move on to earn the next one.
One thing that everyone seems to FORGET is that things take time, or atleast they used to. Im 15, modeling the SOO and the WC, and have over 40 HO engines, many being the high end ones, such as KATO, P2K, Atlas, and some Athearn RTR and Genesis. Oh, I forgot to say, Ive been in this hobby since I was 5. Im finally getting my layout built now, after 10 years of waiting. My family is not rich, me being a single child in a single parent family.
I just bought three packs of track for my planned 12x8 layout, Micro engineering track to boot. You get 6 three foot pieces for 30 bucks. For only 90 dollars my layout track is pretty much done for now, maybe I'll need one more pack in the coming months. I have bought about 1/2 of the foam I'll need, only cost me about 15 dollars. Benchwork isnt cheap, but luckily my grandpa helped me build and totally financed it for me. So, lets say its cost me 215 dollars so far. All you need is a few switches and an engine or two, with maybe 10 cars of rolling stock and you can work from there. So, lets say you have an engine (80 bucks), and 10 cars (15x10) and you have about 230 dollars there. Spread that out over a year, and you have worked your way forward very easily. And who says you'll need that engine, maybe you bought an Athearn RTR for 60 dollars.
Its all about patience, even though it may be unbearable at times. Once you have all your track, your cost goes down as low as you want, because you have the "main" portion of your layout setup, and you branch off from that.
Yes, that is alot of money, about 500 dollars, but look at what you get for that. You wouldnt have to buy anything more until you wanted too. This hobby is the perfect one to break down into stages, and if you do that you'll find how much money you DONT have to spend.
Alec
Bingo, Tom. We find more things to excuse having by insisting that they are essential to us for any number of reasons. We have come to call this "rationalization." How our society every made it to this state of advancement without all of our "essentials" is quite beyond me...divine intervention, maybe?
We have more disposable income now than ever before...clearly. Look at all the quads, snowmobile, travel trailer RV's, dual cars, double incomes, TV's in every room, plus all the associated gaming and entertainment stuff, ....it goes on an on. Few of us had that stuff 50 years ago. Let's not forget season's tickets to whatever, including opera and the symphony, rock concerts galore, drugs for many, other "drugs" for many, and so on.
We, simply, have never had it better...if materialism is what makes life better. I'm not convinced.
Sorry, this is getting a little afield.
jfugate wrote: CN:If today's prices are driving people from the hobby as you say, then today's hobby firms must be seeing rapidly declining sales as the prices escalate ... which sounds like an environment where the manufacturers are vying for the spoils of a hobby that's little more than a flailing corpse at this stage.According to the facts I find, I think your analysis (at best) is somewhat dated, as per the mainstream media reports in 2007 that the hobby is making a comeback ...NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sales of model trains are picking up steam again thanks to deals linking them to the "Harry Potter" and "The Polar Express" movies, along with a new approach to marketing the old-fashioned toys.Lionel, one of the big names in model trains in the 1950s, has watched as its business had to focus less on selling toys to kids than serving an older but much smaller hobbyist market. Folk-rock singer Neil Young, 61, is so passionate about trains that he bought a fifth of the company in 1995.Now, the company is bringing trains back to young people, and sales are up 40 percent in the last two years. You can read the full story here. CN, I'd be interested in seeing your links to your sources, since it doesn't seem to fit the facts as I know them ... New media reports hobby sales are up.TAMR (The Teen Association of Model Railroaders web site is making a comeback -- it's not crawling with teens, but there's clearly new interest.)My NMRA contacts tell me the hobby is in the best shape they've seen for a couple decades. Litchfield Station, a DCC reseller, is doing a bangup business, and growing (read the Sept 2007 article)S scale has seen the introduction of more new models than ever in its history, with S scale narrow gauge growing the most, reports Model Railroad News and The S Scale Web site. Doesn't sound like a hobby that's done for just yet ...
CN:
If today's prices are driving people from the hobby as you say, then today's hobby firms must be seeing rapidly declining sales as the prices escalate ... which sounds like an environment where the manufacturers are vying for the spoils of a hobby that's little more than a flailing corpse at this stage.
According to the facts I find, I think your analysis (at best) is somewhat dated, as per the mainstream media reports in 2007 that the hobby is making a comeback ...
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sales of model trains are picking up steam again thanks to deals linking them to the "Harry Potter" and "The Polar Express" movies, along with a new approach to marketing the old-fashioned toys.Lionel, one of the big names in model trains in the 1950s, has watched as its business had to focus less on selling toys to kids than serving an older but much smaller hobbyist market. Folk-rock singer Neil Young, 61, is so passionate about trains that he bought a fifth of the company in 1995.Now, the company is bringing trains back to young people, and sales are up 40 percent in the last two years.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sales of model trains are picking up steam again thanks to deals linking them to the "Harry Potter" and "The Polar Express" movies, along with a new approach to marketing the old-fashioned toys.
Lionel, one of the big names in model trains in the 1950s, has watched as its business had to focus less on selling toys to kids than serving an older but much smaller hobbyist market. Folk-rock singer Neil Young, 61, is so passionate about trains that he bought a fifth of the company in 1995.
Now, the company is bringing trains back to young people, and sales are up 40 percent in the last two years.
You can read the full story here.
CN, I'd be interested in seeing your links to your sources, since it doesn't seem to fit the facts as I know them ...
Doesn't sound like a hobby that's done for just yet ...
Let's take an honest look here, Joe.
First of all, what in the world does Neil Young's buying into Lionel have to do with the situation of HO model railroad pricing? Young, an astute businessman, bought into a company whose main objective today is selling a high end, collectible product (many with a nostalgia bend). These are aimed largely at well to do, middle-age men who fondly recall Lionel from their childhood, a time when the company produced toy trains for children. At often $1,000 or more for a locomotive, it is obvious that their target audience is no longer kids, or even most traditional O-gaugers. Young made a good business move, one I'd gladly make today if I had his money.
As to the media reports of surging train sale, if you'll recall they were talking about O-gauge toy trains and spurred by two then current childrens' movies. There was nothing about HO therein and there certainly has been little evidence of adult-level trains in big-box stores for years, nor volume sales in LHS. The majority of hobbyist-oriented model trains of are now high end market items.
Many of the manufacturers today are progressively changing direction from a modeling hobby aspect to one of offering high priced collectibles. This is identical to how the imported brass market evolved over its first two decades. Without question, if one limits themselves to a very high end clientel these days, or confines their production to a 500 or 1,000 reservation only, limited-run of exclusive items, there's still money to be made in "model railroading." This isn't just in locomotives, either. Look at FSM kits. They've become a commodity, not a hobby kit to be built (George has said that probably 50%+ of his kits are purchased for the single purpose of speculation). The same is becoming increasingly true of many of the structure kit manufacturers. Look at the latest offerings from Walthers, Bar Mills, FOS, South River, et al. They are $150-$300 per HO building. These aren't in the price range of the average hobbyist building a layout.
As much as I'd like to see TAMR's numbers swell, the last figures I saw for its membership were a few hundred and their national conventions could be held in my livingroom. To me, that's not a very encouraging sign in a hobby that has maybe 200k followers (maybe 0.5%?).
I really can't speak to Litchfield's article, other than to say that to a certain faction in the hobby DCC is very popular and these individuals freely purchase plenty of product. However, I've still seen absolutely nothing to about DCC that it suggests lowering the cost of participating in the hobby. It only increases it...often significantly
You say show me the published numbers that back up my posts. I have done so here, many times, to the point that it's become utterly pointless to repeat them. Folks don't want to acknowldge them because they don't fit their pollyanna outlooks on the hobby. If MR knew of really up-beat stats concerning the hobby, don't you think they'd publish them? Honestly, I feel if next month's MR editorial carried accurate stats re the hobby, there'd be people here denying even them if the numbers weren't favorable!
Certainly, we do know that MR's readership aged dramatically over the course of the past 30 years, as did that of the NMRA. They simply aged, they did not migrate to some other media, or become some invisible legion. Face it, these are the only two bodies to publish age figures for the hobby. They are all we have to go on. However, both currently express very similar numbers (i.e. about 55-60 for an average age). I think any meet or meeting comprised of strictly hobbyists (rather than including the just curious public) shows this figure to be reasonably ballpark. You've previously said some un-named NMRA ex-official related insider info to you how well the hobby was really doing. I have to say that I had some interaction with several current NMRA officials over the summer and none would confirm having knowledge on any such industry report.
How much do you want? Foremost among the indicators of this becoming an increasingly money driven hobby, and I saved it for last, is the creation of the WGH program. Its primary objective, published for all to see, is to try and get more wealthy people into the hobby (target audience: adult males 45-64, i.e. those in their peak earning years). There's no indication they are looking to encourage younger people to carry the hobby into the future on a budget. What more can I say?
CNJ831 &n
DD1 wrote:I think one must remember we had more disposible income 50 years ago than we have today, all other things being equal. Today's disposible income has to pay for cell phones, satelite tv and internet, video games, DVD's and countless other things that were not even available back then.
DD1,
While I will agree with your statement that those things mentioned above were not around 50 years ago, the idea that our disposible income "has to pay for" them is untrue. Cell phones, satellite TV, Internet, video games, and DVDs are NOT essentials. They are conveniences, nicities, and luxuries (like our hobby) that we "choose" to invest our monies in. Any one of them - including our beloved hobby - we can live without.
I will agree with you that when something is important to you, you make the sacrifices necessary to enjoy it - albeit forgoing the $10+ bottles of wine, saving your pennies and making do with what you have (or don't have).