Altoona Railroader:
IF YOUR SORRY what the 4X8 foam board cost you for your RR, TRY not to think of how many 4X8s went into your house. We want you to stay upright.
I WONDER how much a Pool Table would cost to play in your Basement? (They take up about the same room). Just curious - I don't play Pool.
Guys, try running a US model railroading hobby from the UK, then you'll know what high prices are!
Trainworld in Brooklyn advertise Atlas SD24's with sound at $190 - UK price $295; Kato AC4400 without sound $100 - UK price $207.
Even AltoonaRailroader's foam at $30 is a bargain - $46 here.
I know $100 might seem a lot for a locomotive, but look after it and it'll still run as well in 10 years as it does today - and $10 a year seems pretty good value to me.
Ian
AltoonaRailroader wrote: Coming from a person that is now seriously getting into the hobby and just built a house and bought a newer Harely (a must have ), I must say that I am shocked by the prices of everything involved. Just the other day I went to Lowe's to get my 4x8x2" foam board and was blown away that they wanted $30 a piece for those!! So I opted for the 1.5" at $17 something, so for two 4x8x1.5" blue foam boards and a tube of liquid nails was $40.66!!!! I'm sorry but that's a little much for what it is. Now I understand that building materials are going up because of what not, but sheesh.
Coming from a person that is now seriously getting into the hobby and just built a house and bought a newer Harely (a must have ), I must say that I am shocked by the prices of everything involved. Just the other day I went to Lowe's to get my 4x8x2" foam board and was blown away that they wanted $30 a piece for those!! So I opted for the 1.5" at $17 something, so for two 4x8x1.5" blue foam boards and a tube of liquid nails was $40.66!!!! I'm sorry but that's a little much for what it is. Now I understand that building materials are going up because of what not, but sheesh.
Well...if you've been shocked already, get prepared for a lot more rude awakenings as you proceed! The reality of the situation is, if we are talking about a relatively primitive, entry-level and very basic 4x8 layout, it can likely be put together for around a few thousand dollars. However, this level of quality is unlikely to satisfy the builder for very long. More honestly, and in direct conflict with what some posters have previously suggested, creating anything in the way of a really quality layout of beyond say a 4x8, or a minimal around-the-walls arrangement, is something quite appart from this and will typically run well in excess of $10,000 (I say this from first hand experience). The kind of pikes you see in the magazines, except for the most modest-sized and project ones, are in the $25,000 and up range...some of the larger examples costing far, far more.
Commercially-built layouts generally run around twice the price of what the individual could build the same thing for himself. However, their pricing, when divided by a factor of two or so, gives a pretty good general idea of what one faces in the way of potential costs. A famous layout building company (Dunham Studios) advertises the following pricing guide for their services:
1. Simple layout with some elevated scenery, a couple of manual turnouts, basic power supply, one train operation: $175 per square foot.
2. An "average" layout, powered turnouts, more complex scenery, dual cab wiring: $250 per square foot.
3. Typical "up-scale", high-quality layout with simple backdrop: $300 per square foot.
4. Top-of-the-line, large or commercial layout, of truly professional-quality: $450 per square foot.
Taking a 12'x16' as reasonably average layout size these days and rendering it at the level described in example #2, results in a price tag of nearly 50 grand. Half (or even a third) of that sum suggests a modeler-built version could easily cost around $17,000-$25,000.
Now I'm sure that many here will argue against such figures as being realistic but I believe that this largely comes for lack of extensive personal experience, or from not modeling at the level of quality that one generally accepts as a modern standard today. You can model on the cheap if your goals are something one step above a 1960's Lionel-level layout, but having a quality modern layout, I'm afraid, costs big bucks.
CNJ831
So I got my foam board on and glued down and started laying out track; moving my plan from paper to table and realized I was not going to have the amout or correct turn outs I needed to get my mainline done. I also didn't take into consideration that I was going to need 24 turnouts total for the layout at anywhere from $10 to $16 a shot for just Atlas. Whew!!! That adds up quick. But I'm not building the layout all at once. My desgin allows me to build in sections and that's what I'm planning on doing. First the mainline, and it has 8 turnouts alone, three #6's and five #4's. Even that I cannot afford to do at once. But that's ok.
Here's the rationalization of it all though for me.
My 4x8 platform already had a homesote top on it and the little table was topped with plywood. I could have easily saved myself $40 by using what I had there and spent that money on the track and turnouts I need. But this is how I want to create MY layout so I made the sacrafice there. As far as the turnouts go it's going to the be the same thing. If I want remote snap switches to run my trains instead of hand throws or knobs then I'm going to have to be patient and get them when I can afford them. This layout is not meant to be created and done in a month. I got into this hobby to help teach myself some patience, Lord know I could use it. So I'll work it out with the wife and get what I can when I can. I may even just get the turnouts without any machine for now to save a few bucks until I'm ready to wire and start running trains anyhow. I even told my wife that in reality it will probabaly be several months until I can even RUN a train, I understand that, it's part of the hobby for me. There are lots of options as was mentioned here. I guess if I REALLY want to learn more patience I could build my own turnouts, but I dont' think I'm ready for that yet. LOL
And I don't think blowing off some steam about whatever, cost of hobby, cost of equipment or supplies is never a bad thing. Sometimes it helps to bring us back to reality and groud us. Let's us refocus on what this hobby is about.
on30francisco wrote: Don Gibson wrote:"When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..." Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?Bottled water? Proof of "what the market will bear." Some people in this area will pay over three dollars for a 12oz bottle of water. I'll stick to tap water.
Don Gibson wrote:"When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..." Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?
"When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery..."
Better not fill up your car with Gasolene. Talk about "Highway Robbery"! What do you think about 'bottled' water?
Bottled water? Proof of "what the market will bear." Some people in this area will pay over three dollars for a 12oz bottle of water. I'll stick to tap water.
Be glad your tap water doesn't taste like chlorine. Fortunately, I can get bottled spring water for less than 50 cents a quart.
Enjoy
Paul
Hi,
I find that the north american model railroad manufacturers are producing relatively cheap models at a very good quality. This is compared to the European model manufacturers, not wanting to name any names. Just look at the Walthers catalogue.
Also every hobby has some kind of price associated with it. Some more then others and there have been some great examples posted on this thread. Of course it also depends on what you are willing to do and what you are willing to sacrifice. Case in point is the Kato SD40-2. One can purchase a new release version with flashing ditch lights or get the old version from one of those auction sites and improve it.
Overall if one takes their time to purchase the items on one's wish list and gets a creative in the construction process along with doing a bit of shopping I believe that this hobby is not that expensive.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Retail prices are subject to Competition and Sales. If too high, it won't sell.
An Athearn F7A engine that sold for $10 when Gold was $35 oz. would sell for $145 with today's dollar - (it also came with a 'rubber band' drive!).
There is always 'Windup' and 'Blue Box' - assuming you turned down your last pay raise?
luvadj wrote: tomikawaTT wrote: Quick, name a low-cost hobby! Knitting
tomikawaTT wrote: Quick, name a low-cost hobby!
Quick, name a low-cost hobby!
Knitting
According to my wife, she can't buy the wool to knit a sweater for the price she pays for the finished (made ???) product.
As for golf (her actual hobby,) one day's activity at the course would buy me a Spectrum 0-6-0T (if I needed one.) or enough steel studs to finish most of my remaining benchwork.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
In 1974 I think it was, I exclaimed, "I'm NOT going to pay over 50 cents for a gallon of gas!"
I may not like how prices increase, but I no longer say "I won't pay (over a certain amount)".
I also consider how far superior my recent N-scale purchases are in comparison to those made in the 1980's.
When I see the MSRP prices at most LHSs and in ads, I feel that it's highway robbery. I don't fault some of the LHSs in that they must pay the light bill, but everytime I used to buy something at the LHS I felt as though I just got mugged. I know it's what the market will bear but I believe it's still a lot of greed. I combat this by shopping at internet companies such as Trainworld, Ridge Road, M.B. Klein, and others where the prices are sometimes close to 50% of MSRP. Blick, Pearl, and Michaels, three arts and crafts stores in the SF Bay Area, sell dimensional stripwood by the board at half the price of the equivalent amount of pre-packaged dedicated model railroad stripwood. Since I'm in Large Scale and scratchbuild alot, I can use alot of stuff from arts and crafts stores, dollar stores, Home Depot etc. What galls me is that Ozark Miniatures and other proprietary companies can sell their Large Scale detail parts and some of their kits for less than Grandt Line and other firms charge for their's in the smaller scales. Luckily I neither need or have any interest in the so-called "limited run" items.
There are many ways to stretch your hobby dollar, no matter what scale you model in. Shop the discount internet dealers, keep an eye out for common items that can be useful in your modeling, scratchbuild or kitbash some items - the more you do it the better you'll become. Of course if you must have the latest models, the newest gadgets, or want to finish your layout in the least amount of time, be prepared to spend mucho dinero.
THIS IS a hobby that allowes spending money, assembling kits, or building from scratch.
Time is money. (Your CHOICE).
Or do we have an 'Instant Gratification' problem here?
davekelly wrote:There are times when I do wonder why somethings seem to be so much more expensive then they used to be - why my dad was able to get somethings for his layout way back when and I can't now. I'm the opposite, we couldn't afford hardly anything when I was a kid. I would collect and sell pop bottles for months in order to save the .50 cents needed to buy a single issue of MR. I remember in high school asking my mother once why we didn't get lots of traincars back when I was a kid. They were $2.50 now and only $0.79 at the time. She reminded me that $0.79 was a lot of money "back then".
davekelly wrote:There are times when I do wonder why somethings seem to be so much more expensive then they used to be - why my dad was able to get somethings for his layout way back when and I can't now.
We used to buy a set of Christmas lights and carefully preserve them year to year because they were so valuable. Now we throw them away because it is cheaper (and easier) to buy them new each year than it is to store them.
tomikawaTT wrote:Quick, name a low-cost hobby! luvadj wrote:Knitting " border="0" />
luvadj wrote:Knitting " border="0" />
Oh, heck... I'll throw in my two cents.
Model railroading is one of those "nice to haves." In other words, only after budget essentials are taken care of, i.e., mortgage, car payments, untilities, groceries, tutition bills (if applicable), and the like are taken care of, should the "entertainment" budget be considered. Therefore, one has to minimize the budget essentials if one wants to maximize fun spending, assuming a steady income.
It's a shame that for most kids, "home economics" was more about how to burn brownies than to manage a household budget.
When my wife stopped working full time three years ago, our income was slashed in half. My hobby budget, likewise, fell like a rock. But by reducing my other hobbies (I quit flying, for one) and cutting out other unneccessaries (like reducing the amount of eating out), I was able to recover some of my hobby budget loss.
The deal is this; if one is in a financial crunch, one must seriously reconsider if model railroading is a true priority. If it is, then, one must then consider realistic scope and objectives for the hobby until such time as budget allows.
Remember too that model railroad manufacturers aren't exactly raking us over the coals for huge profits, jetting from summer home to summer home. The model railroad business is not a huge money maker. If paying a little extra keeps the manufacturers in business in an ever more expensive world, then so be it.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I'll disagree with the basic premise of the thread. Compared to other hobbies and interests, MRing is not so bad. Take golf for example. Price out a good set of clubs. Want that new oversized driver - figure on $150+ for one club. Want to play 18 holes, with a cart, depending on the course, figure at least $50. How about R/C planes. Not cheap. How model rockets - for low power figure at least $2 per launch. You want to go for the high powered stuff, try $10-15 a launch. Oh yea, and you better hope for good weather and hope you'll be able to recover the rocket.
It's time people realize that this is not a poor man's hobby. Good quality equipment carries a price. If spending even $50-60 on an Athearn RTR loco causes a major kink in the budget, then maybe its time to look for a different, less expensive hobby. While there are ways to save money in this hobby, most of the time the results are look unacceptable, IMO. I guess you can say there are two philosophies - less quality, more quantity or less quantity with more quality. I'll take the more quality, my level of satisfaction will be higher and frustration lower.
When you think about it, the old say really does apply - "The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys." I've showed adult friends my model trains and referred to that saying. These are not toys in the tradition kid sense, and I don't treat them as such. Now stop whining about the cost of the hobby - key word "hobby".
It never has been a poor mans hobby. Thank God we have the internet so we can price shop from home. And this forum to share money saving ideas. If you shop smart you can still get a pretty good bang for your buck over walking into a hobby shop with no game plan in mind. I think picking a level of detail you can afford and sticking to it is very important.
How much stuff have we all bought that doesn't fit our layouts and ends up never getting used. That can add up pretty quick.
Perhaps it would be more productive to have threads like "Tips that save money" or "Best bang for the buck" or "Not top of the line, but pretty good and a bunch cheaper." I'm sure the collective wisdom of the forum members can be used to generate some great productive ideas.
There are times when I do wonder why somethings seem to be so much more expensive then they used to be - why my dad was able to get somethings for his layout way back when and I can't now. Perhaps part of it is because my disposible income goes to places that he never thought about. My dad was satisfied with receiving his TV and radio programming for free, didn't have internet or a PC to pay for and made his phone calls from home and didn't need instant access to the news on a handheld devise. When the wife and I moved here we went through our monthly expenses and decided that basic cable was fine, something other than the fastest internet connection was probably sufficient and by cutting back on our cell phone use we could get a way cheaper plan. It was amazing how much coin we saved - some of which can now be used on my way cool hobby Of course she gets to use some of that on her silly dollhouse hobby - but don't tell her I said that.
Pet Rock Farm?
tomikawaTT wrote:Quick, name a low-cost hobby!
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
The cost of everything has gone up...that's life. I have a family and I'm the only breadwinner in the household, so I have to scrimp and save for a set of switches or whatever I need. The girls and I find great joy in scratchbuilding and it brings us closer together.
Yeah, it would be nice to convert to DCC or buy structures instead of making them from scraps of this or that, but it doesn't change how we feel about the hobby, and we're proud of what we've accomplished.
richg1998 wrote: tstage wrote: Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...? Tom are like that. They are bored and need something to rant about, anything. I heard the same complaints back in the 1960s. History always repeats itself."rich
tstage wrote: Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...? Tom
Why do I get the distinct impression that this thread is going to get some mileage and probably get ugly...?
Tom
are like that. They are bored and need something to rant about, anything. I heard the same complaints back in the 1960s. History always repeats itself."
rich
As a certified 'Geezer' I resent that. We tend to remember the 'Good Ol' days'.
Seems to me from these types of posts, that it's the 'young 'uns who complain about "prices", and ''Life 'aint fair" in general.
I suppose it's easier to ignore the declining dollar, but my 'official' response is to say "take up Golf, Boating, or Girls, if you think Model Railroading is expensive.
I suppse someone could take up collecting rubber bands.
Actually, there is no reason to spend more than you can afford. Homemade equivalents can be substituted for a lot of commercial products at a fraction of the cost, train show bargains can be repaired, painted and weathered, old is not necessarily bad.
The one key ingredient that seems to be lacking in a lot of this is PATIENCE! As a nation, we have gotten used to the idea that we have to have all of the latest and greatest RIGHT NOW! Bah, humbug. If you can't afford the $$$ (fillintheblank) then buy, make or otherwise finagle what you can afford. Be flexible in your planning. It is very possible to have a lot of model railroading fun without draining the checking account and maxing all the credit cards.
I to am highly irritated by the high cost of model railroading. In fact I openly state to whoever will listen that I can not afford and have not been able to afford any of the new model railroad products of the last several years. To that end I am left picking over second hand stock, close out sales, and sniffing out bargains from those leaving the hobby. I am glad that Walthers has a complete consist of Empire Builder cars decorated for the era that I model. However at nearly $40.00 a car I can not afford them. Having a consist is so prohibitive cost wise I am still thinking long and hard about wheather or not I really want one.
On the other hand, I do feel that part of the reason that costs are so high is people no longer want to do alot of the "grunt" work involved with building a good model railroad. By the time they build stable benchwork, and lay smooth track, they are not in the mood to do the things that make model railroading fun. Such as assemble rolling stock, locomotive, and builing kits. All three of those are becoming increasingly available in ready to use form. and even in some extream casts, complete 4X8 or 5X9 layouts are made "Preformed" so all one has to do is assemble the correct track components, paint the scenery forms and add the finish layers of scenery. All this work coming to you completed adds to the cost of model railroad products. Does the price of oil, and therefor the plastic that is made from it have alot to do with the price of model trains. Yes it does. But again does not account for the whole picture, Does inflation have alot to do with the increased cost of model trains these days. Again I would say yes. but just blameing these things on inflation does not present the whole picture iether. I feel one also has to consider the willingness of the contemporary model railroader to allow things to be done for him. Even though labor is cheaper in china. They are performing labor today that used to be done by the modeler 10 years ago.
I am sure some one will say that people do not have the time today as they once did. I would agree with that. But I also feel that America as a country has lost sense of its priorities. I feel America as a whole is a narcicistic place and many people. (Whom I hope are not model railroaders) are caught up in the great activity known as "Keeping up with the Joneses." Mr. Jones gets a new car, Say a Ford Taurus, well Mr. Smith cant let mr. Jones upstage him like that so he goes and buys himself a Chevy Caprice. Now Mr. Smith doesn';t know that Mr. Jones got the new ford taurus because his old car that he drove for the last 5 or 6 years was wrecked and thus he was forced to buy a new car. He just sees that Mr Jones has a new car and so he needs one to. Now this example may be a little over the top. but sadly I see it all the time. And I live in Wyoming.
I feel America has gotten this way because we have lost sense of our priorities. In years past our priorities use to be centered around the family and home. Now they seem centered around how much pointless stuff we can accumulate. I found that I don't let my self get caught up in that mentality and I am a much happier person. Its sort of like that line from that one Cheryl Crow song. "Its not about having what you want. Its wanting what you've got" Now if I can only stop going "Oh that would be a cool thing to build a model of" and then the next thought being "To model it I need........." I will finally have "eneugh" trains.
Sorry I kind of got to ranting, but I was feeling reflective.
James.
ya think?
Rustyrex,I don't know where you're getting your figures, but they are incorrect.
New Athearn "Blue Box" kit SD40-2's are $56.50, dummies are $34.50 (prices MSRP).
In the 1991 Walthers Catalog, the SD40-2 kit was $32.50, dummies were $12.00 (prices MSRP).
According to NASA's inflation calculator, that $32.50 should be $45.08, and the $12 should be $16.64. I would explain the additional cost above inflation as due to the plastic handrails vs. the old metal ones, the better paint jobs compared to the old ones, and the better drive compared to the old ones. It's not exactly the same product. The higher dummy cost would come from the idea that dummies aren't nearly as popular these days...and fewer units run mean higher unit cost.
New Athearn "Blue Box" hopper kits are $7.25 (MSRP) ea., not "18 bucks". The RTR's are $13.33 ea. in a 6-pack, not $25 ea. The Genesis SD70M's are $139.98, not $130...but then that's for the "top of the line" Genesis, which is only comparable to brass for the early 1990's.
All new Athearn prices from www.athearn.com
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
My brother in law spent $30,000 in ONE day on a speed boat he can't afford. I've spent $8,000 over 20 years on model railroading (or 1.10 per day). Its all relative. Relatively speaking that is
I prefer the newer locomotives. My old athearn and concor stuff is gathering dust. $85 for a new atlas or proto 2000 in my opinion is a bargain. They run great. Much better than their predecessors.