Rich, it does show the complete isolation of the yard with the three vertical black lines on the right of the diagram. any shorting problem would have to be internal to the yard, however the hand drawn diagram does show the turntable lead as part of the yard, but if the PSX-AR in on the turntable only this should not be a factor, but that is not specifically shown.
I believe that the angled black line in the far lower right of the diagram is the end of the reversing section that is shown in green on the hand drawn diagram.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Rich
Alton Junction
floridaflyer I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
One, any and all of the feeders inside the reversing section need to be connected to the output side of the auto-reverser. If any feeders inside the reversing section are connected outside of the reversing section a dead short will occur.
Two, the reversing section needs to be completely isolated from the rest of the layout. This means that there must be enough gaps placed at the apppropriate locations to ensure complete isolation. That is why any turnouts within the reversing section become suspect when a short occurs.
Agree Rich. And if he does the same thing between the upper track in the yard and the lower track in the yard, with the dividing point being the turnout in question, he should get the same results. If he doesn't something is backwards.
When I first made the suggestion to use a test lamp (incandescent or resistored LED), I was addressing the OP's question about how to determine if the reversing section is working correctly under the control of the PSX-AR.
If you put one leg of the test lamp on a rail outside of the reversing section and the other leg of the test lamp on the same rail (across the gap) inside the reversing section, it will not light if the rail segments are the same polarity. It will light if the rail segments are the opposite polarity.
Rich and Big Daddy raise a point. I don't see any reason for a PSX-AR in the yard except for the turntable, and your latest diagram shows the yard isolated from the turntable at the shed, so the yard, as you say, is completely isolated from the rest of the layout. thus something is wired backward between the upper tracks and the lower tracks or the turnout is defective. It in all likelyhood doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the layout.
As far as the light check, if he goes from the positive rail on the upper track to the negative rail on the lower track , it should light, if it doesn't something is backwards. He could also go + to + or - to - and it should not light. If is does light, again, something is backwards.
GMTRacingI will try the one suggestion of using an LED with a large resistor to check polarity
Does that work?
Reading this thread, I would think an LED would be lit all the time
caboose lighting
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I wish that you could post a photo of the reversing section and connecting tracks.
Your most recent diagram and the one posted by Henry (Big Daddy) are dramatically different with the diagram posted by Henry showing a straight reversing section with no turnouts inside the reversing section, whereas your diagram shows any number of turnouts and connecting tracks.
It is impossible to get a sense of the overall layout, or at least the affected area.
I have checked the drops and buss and it all seems in order though logic dictates that they can't be if it all stops when the one turnout that connects the upper and lower yard entry is thrown. One buss feeds the whole thing and the yard is isolated from the rest of the trackage. That is the reason I have been reading the tutorial, I never knew how much I didn't know. I will try the one suggestion of using an LED with a large resistor to check polarity between the two sections of the yard. Not sure how else I can check that. Of all the issues, that now seems the most serious. J.R.
Looking at your diagram, are the tracks above the turnout in phase with the tracks below the turnout(is the positive and ground on the same rail on all tracks) ?
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Yes that is correct. I didn't realize the wheels could bridge the gap at the start of the frog. I used the dremel to contour the middle down far enough back to stop that happening and will fill the contour with epoxy and finish the top back to flat. The alternative was to gap the turnouts just past the frog and I thought that not as good an idea. I had no idea the frogs were a problem until it was pointed out to me. Previously I had DC and no issues. The tutorial was a big help there. Any different ideas before I get the Dremel back out? We live and learn. J.R.
If I recall correctly, these are Peco Code 100 Insulfrogs. Correct?
Rich,
I'm back but no drawing just yet. To update, the reversing section works just fine as built, it is a straight section with gaps at both ends. A large issue was the medium and large radius PECO turnouts I'm using. I was unaware they are prone to shorting across the gap of the frog and I'm correctiing that. I have one more issue I will explore after I have modified my turnouts. Hopefully I can start on the drawing tonight. Cheers, J.R.
If the reversing section is simply a straight section of track between two turnouts, it would be isolated by gaps at both ends of that straight section of track. Simple enough. So, if the reversing section is correctly gapped, then there is a wiring problem inside the reversing section.
richhotrainI'm lost.
The second drawing is just a close up of the center of the first drawing, that's why I put the letters in for reference. Try opening them up in different tabs and switch back and forth.
Rich, it is just a stub on the lower right. I will when I return from my trip take my drafting kit, colored pencils and paper and do the whole track plan in a larger format and then figure out how to get it onto the forum. I am out of time for now as I have to get up and go at three this morning. Thank you for your patience. J.R.
I'm lost. Where is the reversing section in the second drawing? I am not saying that there isn't one. I just have no idea where it is situated in that second drawing.
Henry,
B in the first sketch is on the other side of the aisle. I tried to make things clearer by taking out most of the main lines and classification yard. B in the second sketch is the start of the green reversing section in the first sketch. A is the isolator between the service yard and the yard throat. D is the isolator between the the lower and elevated parts of the main. The star is in fact where the turnout shorts the yard. Just to the left of B in the second sketch is the second isolator for the service yard.
On a brighter note, thank you. The medium turnout at the entrance to the yard throat shorts out the system. I also found one other medium radius turnout that can short out and will now check all the rest of them. The turnouts i'm having trouble with are the oldest I have recycled from a previous layout. J.R.
This is the only reversing section I see, but there maybe others. He does have 2 PSX-AR's From A to C, it looks short, but that may just be it is not to scale.
On the second drawing both A B and D are the same points as the 1st drawing. The shorted turnout is in the center of the star.
Comparing both drawings, I think the connections to the mainline are at the two tracks at the very bottom right and the yellow star on the top right side of the page.
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. service yard track plan 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard sketch" /> It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
service yard track plan 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard sketch" />
Where do you feel the reversing section is located and where are all of the gaps located to fully isolate the reversing section?
Is the PSX-AR in the red section needed for the turntable? I'm having a hard time seeing another reversing section in tht zone.
Here is the layout in question. I'm on my way out the door and haven't had time to think about it.
Henry, I think you hit the mark with the entry throat problem. I was starting to suspect as much but didn't confirm the issue. I have the DCC tutorial saved on my 'puter but hadn't read as far as the turnouts yet. I will try to space and insulate the heel of the entry turnout frog next time I work on the layout (probably not until next week when I return from my road trip). Thanks, J.R.
JR I sent you a pm.
Meanwhile maybe this page will help. What the article calls "point rails" most of us call frog rails.
https://dccwiki.com/Peco_Insulfrog
Thank you all again for the help. Yes the turnouts are all power routing Insulfrog type unmodified. I have been checking things and have found besides the polarity problem at the lower yard entrance, that the yard throat turnout from the main creates a dead short, and one turnout in the middle of the yard stops everything as well. I am stymied trying to get track layout scan from my 'puter to Flickr but will continue to try to get that done before I go out on the road tomorrow morning. Thanks again, J.R.
service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
I've never played with trip currents, but I will once my layout is back up. I have a similar problem, but only the first time through. After that it's fine until the next session.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Do you have any power routing turnouts? That one fried my brain in a yard once with peocs. You would think it wouldnt matter, but beacuse the way it powers the end rails if you have additional feeders past the turnout it can create a short or a dead spot depending on your wiring
GMTRacing The gaps for the service yard show no continuity so that is correct. Is there anyway to actually check polarity on the track?
The gaps for the service yard show no continuity so that is correct. Is there anyway to actually check polarity on the track?
One way is to watch the D6 LED on the PSX-AR board. As a locomotive enters the reversing section, the D6 LED will either begin flashing or it will go off, depending upon the order of wiring from the output side of the PSX-AR. Let's say, the D6 LED flashes as the locomotive enters the reversing section. The D6 LED will go off when the locomotive exits the reversing section. If the locomotive then stops and changes direction, the D6 LED will remain off as the locomotive re-enters the reversing section. The D6 LED will begin flashing as the locomotive exits the reversing section. That alternating LED signal, either flashing or off, indicates the status of the polarities inside and outside the reversing section.
Another way to check polarity inside a reversing section is to use a test bulb or resistored LED. Put the two legs of the bulb or LED across the gap on the same rail. If it lights, the polarities inside and outside the reversing section are mismatched. If it doesn't light, the polarities inside and outside the reversing section are matched which can be proven by putting one leg on a rail inside the reversing section and the other leg on the opposite rail outside the reversing section to produce light.
A third method is a voltmeter. Use the probes in place of the legs of the bulb or LED.