Thanks for the feedback. Glad you found the problem
Well between health issues and a looming race deadline I haven't had as much time as I would like. I have been reworking turnouts and proving things one turnout at a time. I did find the fault that has eluded me thanks to Florida Flyer. I isolated the dead short but couldn't find a reason for it so I cut turnout out and pulled it up. The two little feeders under the frog were touching enough to cause a short. I replaced the turnout with a new one I had and - no more short. I owe you all another thank you for sticking through all this. It was systematically implementing your suggestions that gave the result. I am now going through to finish the turnout mods and putting some to the things back together one at a time so I can go back to one power district for the upper main line, one for the lower main plus seperate power districts for each yard and the auto reverse section. Once that is done, on to the turntable. J.R.
Will do
floridaflyer Having invested half my retired life in this thread, I would like to have feedback from the OP as to how things are going. Don't think he needs any more input but progress reports now and then would be appreciated.
Having invested half my retired life in this thread, I would like to have feedback from the OP as to how things are going. Don't think he needs any more input but progress reports now and then would be appreciated.
Rich
Alton Junction
Randy, Rich, et all, I agree we should let this die a natural death. I will continue to work using the advice I have been given and again my thanks. J.R.
The way the Insulfrog power routes, they should never create a short unless you actually make a reverse loop. Either the diverging frog rail has the same polarity that an all power turnout like Atlas has, OR it is connected to nothing. This should never cause a short. You should be able to hook feeders right to the diverging frog rails with no problem, same as an Atlas.
You can NOT do this with an Electrofrog, as both diverging frog rails assume the same polarity as the points move, which is completely opposite what happens with an all-power turnout and WILL short if one turnout for a siding is set for the main and the other is set to the siding with no gaps.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I give up. This thread should be allowed to die a peaceful death. I thought that this mystery would be solved for sure tonight.
There are only two diagonal tracks and four straight tracks in that gapped and isolated section of the service yard. It'a either a bad turnout, crossed feeder wires, or a bus problem. How hard can that be to solve?
Earlier, I suggested that the offending turnout be swapped out and replaced with a known good turnout. Did you try this? If a short still occurs, the only thing left is a wiring problem. How about checking the polarity of the adjacent track(s)?
I don't understand what steps you are taking to try to resolve the problem. What exactly did you do tonight in terms of troubleshooting? The only thing you said about the problem in your latest post is that "the short moved again". What does that mean?
All things considered, I would have used something else knowing what I know now. I liked the power routing and the spring that holds the mechanism in position when I had just a DC layout. It seems any run around you create with these turnouts creates a loop that makes a short. I think my best plan is Ricks idea of gapping after all the points and adding power after the gaps. the short moved again but it really shouldn't with the yard gapped in the middle and the auto reverse section abutting the yard.
What can I use besides epoxy to try to insulate the top of the point rails. If need be I'll cut them all and fill with epoxy but it seems pretty tedious. At least I feel I'm making progress. J.R.
I guess that's why they come sprung from the factory, so the points are held closely to the respective rails.
- Douglas
Randy, I have always understood the Peco Insulfrog to be power routing.
I took a spare Peco Code 83 Insulfrog and connected an 18 volt power pack to the rails at the tail end of the turnout and a 12 volt incandescent bulb to the the rails at the divergent end of the turnout. I set the route to straight through, no light. I threw the point rails to the divergent route, light.
Then, I moved the light to the straight end of the turnout and kept the points on the divergent route, no light. I threw the points to the straight through route, light.
Well that's certainly interesting since it goes against everything I've seen posted about them. But I don't have any to test with, I only bought a few Electrofrogs to try out because I have no interest in using Insulfrogs.
The only way I can see these working this way is if the ONLY power through the points and closure rail up through the diverging frog rails is through the point rail contacting the stock rail. If at any point, power from the stock rail is applied to the closure rail (like that large mass of metal at the hinge of an Atlas) then the diverging frog rails would always be powered, exactly like an Atlas turnout. So this all seems a bit unreliable to me. As soon as you add a jumper from the closure to the adjacent stock rail, now the diverging rails all always powered, same as Atlas, and the position of the points will not matter.
I haven't noticed before, but yes, Insulfrogs are power routing. I have many for my new layout. I just experimented by hooking up leads to the tail. The tangent and diverging routs are powered only when the points are thrown respectively.
Thanks guys. Now all i have to do is find out what I messed up. At least it is down to about a square foot area and 4 turnouts. I will leave early (5:00 Drs orders) tonight and try to spend some more time on this. J.R.
I have a fair number of Peco Code 83 Insulfrogs, and they are power routing. I don't have any Peco Code 100 Insulfrogs, but my understanding is that they are also power routing.
True, the plastic frogs on the Insulfrogs cannot be powered, but the frog rails are powered when the point rails are thrown against the stock rails. However, as Randy says, no shorts occur because power is not carried through the frogs as is the case with Electrofrogs. But, Insulfrogs are power routing.
The open side frog rail on insulfrogs is dead, not electrically connected to anything, so it can;t short. On an Electrofrog, both frog rails have the same polarity which is why you need to gap them to prevent a short. AN Insulfrog can have power applied to the frog end without any gaps, just ike an Atlas turnout. Electrofrog, this is a no no. But pretty sure the Peco Code 83 Insulfrogs were never power routing. The Code 100 may have been, newer ones are not supposed to be either.
Unifrog looks like an Insulfrog but that plastic point of the frog is metal and has a lead running from it which can be powered. Depending on how you cut the jumpers on the bottom, it will behave either like an Insulfrog on an Electrofrog.
I am using only Electrofrog, unless they get switched to Unifrog by the time I start buying turnouts. Why? Because then there is always power, there are no dead areas, and no issues needing to put some nail polish on the point of the frog to keep wheels from bridging the gap and causing a short. Unifrog used as Electrofrog will also be this way, no issues with continuous power for DCC.
The turnouts are indeed Insulfrogs. Insulfrogs are in fact power routing with the head of the frog in plastic and the rest in metal the rails at the point are very close together with just a sliver of plastic between them. I did find one a while ago where the point rails off the frog were shorted together. I plan on isolating the turnouts one at a time until I find the problem.
I see now that PECO is offering something called a Uni-Frog. They are not what I have nor are they electrofrogs. Pretty sure I mentioned that previously. J.R.
That's pretty much the only explanation for the position of the turnout to matter. Insulfrogs are not power routing, so it shouldn't matter which way the points are thrown. Electrofrogs are, so it WILL matter which way the points are thrown.
It's easy to tell just by looking which it is, just look at the frog area.
If it is indeed an insulfrog, I am at a loss to explain what is going on. The wiring in both yards is correct, in phase, and your fix with the expanded reversing section will correct the out of phase condition at the junction of the lower yard and the lower main.
I guess my next move would be to isolate, or remove, the turnout and jumper between the the rails of both yards, red to red, black to black, and see if that power connection still produces a short. If not than there is something with the turnout connection. If it still shorts then wiring is screwed up somewhere.,
floridaflyer I believe the OP has electrofrog Peco power routing turnouts.
I believe the OP has electrofrog Peco power routing turnouts.
I believe the OP has a electrofrog Peco power routing turnout. If that is the case. the turnout wiring requires some wire modification and gaps are necessary on the frog rails. Google "Pico turnout wiring" and the last diagram will show what I believe the OP has, and the steps to modify the turnout.
A few comments and observations about these latest modifications.
1. It is not at all surprising that the service yard is still shorting out because, as has been mentioned before, there is no obvious reason for a short to occur based upon the track diagram. So, a fix is impossible without determining a cause.
2. You really didn't need to extend the reversing section by including the three lower service yard tracks, but at least it further isolates the problem to the upper portion of the service yard.
With the addition of those extra gaps, the upper portion of the service yard now looks like this.
So, the problem is somewhere between the divergent end of that circled turnout and the gap at the top right end of the service yard (where the red colored track connects to the purple colored track). There are two diagonal tracks and four straight tracks in that gapped and isolated section of the service yard.
It could be a bad turnout, crossed feeder wires, or a bus problem. Too bad that some knowledgeable guy can't pay you a visit, crawl under the layout and find the problem in a manner of minutes.
Can you swap out that offending turnout and replace it with a known good one? If a short still occurs, the only thing left is a wiring problem.
One last thing. For some reason, I am still wondering about that gap marked "Check this gap to be sure it is open". That gap wouldn't even be necessary except for the fact that you want to treat the service yard as a separate power district. If I were there, I would check the polarities on either side of that gap. The polarities should match based upon the diagram. What electronic board are you using to control the service yard as a power district, a PSX or a PSX-AR?
Good Morning All,
I did not get as far as i wanted as I spent most of the weekend dealing with a flare up of bursitis in my knee. This required a lot of time spent with the knee elevated and iced as per Drs orders.
To recap, the dead loco issue from the initial post was the wheel shorting across the Peco turnout. I have ground and filled the offending turnout and a few more from the same batch of medium radius insulfrog turnouts. The main lines operate correctly.
With the turnout on the yard throat fixed, I can run into the classification yard without issues.
I wasn't obviously able to spend a lot of time under the layout but I did add the gaps and drops as advised. A short still exists in the area of the turnout in the middle of the service yard. I have isolated the area by gapping it all around, i.e. at the frog of the turnout, at the back shop, and between the tracks out of the backshop and the first three tracks of the lower service yard. The 3 lower service yard tracks I have added to the extended reversing section and it has no issues. Next work will be to check the section of the track where the short occurs. All the gaps seem proper and I can insert a piece of plastic through them into the road bed. I will retrace the drops again as I still feel I have a phase reversal somewhere. The track is now gapped to the right of the black circle in the middle of the yard, at the gold circle by the back shop and on the diagonal going up to the track from the back shop. CUL, J.R.
GMTRacing I have been unable to sort out some odd electric gremlins on my layout. As background, it is medium size with 4 blocks protected by an early PSX 4 and a pair of PSX AR, one for auto reverse, the other to a turntable (unconnected at this time). Operating system is an MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 and an MRC 8 amp booster. Track is Atlas code 100 with PECO Insulfrog turnouts unmodified. The layout has two blocks for a mainline half of which rises to an elevated section while the rest is at surface level. I have two yards side by side one for rolling stock, one for service with a turntable, roundhouse and backshop. I have busses for each section, and that seems to be where the problem arises. I have an unfindable short between the two "mainline" sections. That doesn't seem to make any difference in operations. The issue arose when I finished and hooked up the yards. Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits. All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout. When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset. Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
I have been unable to sort out some odd electric gremlins on my layout. As background, it is medium size with 4 blocks protected by an early PSX 4 and a pair of PSX AR, one for auto reverse, the other to a turntable (unconnected at this time). Operating system is an MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 and an MRC 8 amp booster. Track is Atlas code 100 with PECO Insulfrog turnouts unmodified.
The layout has two blocks for a mainline half of which rises to an elevated section while the rest is at surface level. I have two yards side by side one for rolling stock, one for service with a turntable, roundhouse and backshop.
I have busses for each section, and that seems to be where the problem arises. I have an unfindable short between the two "mainline" sections. That doesn't seem to make any difference in operations. The issue arose when I finished and hooked up the yards.
Either yard is entered from the lower main line from a common throat. There the throat divides into the classification yard and the service yard. The classification side seems ok, but the service yard is giving me fits. All the tracks seem to be wired ok, the gaps are by cuts and insulating joiners both and with the power off, everything is isolated from the rest of the layout.
When a locomotive enters the throat, it will stall when it enters the service yard lead. No breaker lights go on but once the whole thing shut off and reset. Sometimes throwing turnouts seems to change things but not the dead stop on yard entry.
Extending the reversing section and installing gaps on the inner mainline should eliminate any short when the service yard is entered from the bottom. But, if a locomotive enters the service yard from the top, those gaps will not resolve a short in the service yard. Something else is going on there.
My only point is that in the original diagram provided by the OP, the service yard was fully isolated by the gaps at the top and bottom of the yard, along with the gap behind the back shop. And, the entire service yard is wired in phase. So, when that turnout inside the service yard was thrown to the divergent route, no way should there be a dead short.
Don't think it matters, the upper yard is in phase with the upper main. At least that is what the diagram indicates, I think.
floridaflyer Rich, I think that the OP wants the yards to be a separate power district so the gaps with the arrow would be necessary to do that.
Rich, I think that the OP wants the yards to be a separate power district so the gaps with the arrow would be necessary to do that.
He must also want the classification yard to be a separate power district since he has gaps there as well.
Here is something else to consider. When gaps are placed at the location of the gold colored circles, the result is a lengthened reversing section on the far right in the diagram that is completely isolated from the mainlines as well as from the service yard.
Once those gaps are in place, the service yard is no longer a reversing section. In fact, that gap at the entry point to the upper portion of the service yard (with the arrow pointing upward to it) is no longer needed.
Since the entire service yard is wired in phase (both the upper portion and the lower portion), throwing the point rails to the divergent route should not cause a short, with or without that gap at the top of the service yard.