Correctamundo Rich. And the cause of this is the way the turnout connects the two yards, it takes the input from the lower yard, call it + on rail A and sends it out as + on rail B to the upper yard. And as the upper yard has - on rail B ( same as the lower track has) there is a short. The turnout has reversed the phase.
FF, I think what you are suggesting is that the upper yard is wired in phase with the top of the mainline oval, and the lower yard is wired in phase with the bottom of the mainline oval, resulting in the the two yards being out of phase with one another.
Rich
Alton Junction
floridaflyer Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
Think they are out of phase Rich. Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
Think they are out of phase to each other when connected bu the turnout . Changing the phase on the lower yard will correct that and you expanded reversing section will take care of the phase mismatch that reversing the phase on the lower yard creates at the entrance to the lower yard.
At this point, the most important question that I would ask the OP is, which diagram is an accurate representation of your layout - - - the one that Henry posted or the second one, the diagram that the OP posted. If we can focus on one diagram, that would help immensely.
Also, FF raises a good observation about the polarity (or wiring protocol as I call it) of the two yards. Are the two yards wired in phase? Or is the wiring reversed in the other yard?
,Extending the reversing section only partially solves the problem. the location of the turnout in question creates an electrical reversal. What is the positive on the lower yard leads to the negative on the upper yard.
Trace a rail starting with the rail coming out of the frog side of the turnout that leads into the lower yard. follow that rail thru the yard and you will find that when you get to the turnout at the top entrance the rail is not on the frog side anymore, but rather the other side. the positioning of the turnout creates this. As long as the turnout( the one that causes the short) is in the thru position the yards are not electrically connected and everything is fine. When the divergent route is thrown on the turnout, that connects both yards and a short occurs.
In order to have a continuous flow(same rail) for the positive and negative throught both yards, one of the yards will have to have the + and - reversed. Because a reversing section is at the entance to the lower yard I would reverse the feeders on the lower yard. This moves the shorting point to the entrance to the lower yard. However by expanding the existing reversing section, per Rich's suggestion, to the entrance point of the lower yard the reversing section will correct the mismatch.
By the way I live in Sebring
Doug
All,
After 24 hours driving time over two days back from Sebring, I had major issues with my one knee so didn't get much done. However, I altered the reversing block per the suggestion with the gold dots above so it now extends to the lower service yard entrance and also has gaps at the two other outer main tracks. The service yard itself is as it was with an AR feeding it via a single buss and drops all phased the same. The turntable is currently disconnected while I sort the rest of this as I used the AR for it to power the service yard. I did not yet check the phase of each track in the service yard as I just wasn't up to it yet. It shouldn't make any difference if two Auto Reverse blocks abut each other so long as they are gapped, correct? J.R.
(duplicate reply deleted)
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track. It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
It is substantially different from the original sketch J.R.
Also, that gap at the bottom right where the mainline branches into the lower yard is correctly placed where rails of opposite polarity meet right before that diagonal track running NW to SE. The remaining gaps are placed to the left of the Back Shop and up at the top right before the upper yard connects back to the mainline.
So, what we have is one big reversing section consisting of both the upper yard and the lower yard. That reversing section is in addition to the reversing section just out of view on the right side of the diagram.
So, because the circled turnout shorts the layout when the points are thrown, it must be a wiring problem inside that big reversing section. Or, not.
P.S. I am going golfing before I go crazy.
That works, keep the polarity constant off the upper main line and he should be good to go.
I inserted gold colored circles where the gaps should be placed. The two yards should be wired the same way as the mainline above the upper yard.
Edit Note: Remove the gaps at the location marked A. The lower most gold colored circle represents the gap moved further down from location A.
floridaflyer Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
Rich. I think if he keeps the positive rail (as it enters the upper yard) on the same rail throught the entire yard (forgetting inside and outside) he eliminates any conflict at the turnout in question, and the expanded reversing section at the lower entrance will correct any mismatch.
FF, if I understand you correctly, you are touching upon something that could be key to solving the OP's problem. That something would be his wiring protocol. Since the mainline folds back upon itself, via the A to C connection, the A-C track segment forms a reversing section.
When I drew out a 2-color, 2-rail, track diagram based upon Henry's drawing, I had both yards wired in parallel, so there would be no shorts inside the yard. But if the OP wired it differently, there could be a reversing section between the yards.
I can use both but Henry's is clearer without the jog leading to the TT. when I say "outside" rail I am using the position of the rail as it enters from the main. Not at all sure that this is the situation but if he did use the outside rail as a reference point at both entrances then he will have a conflict at the junction point of the two yards, as the outside of one yard becomes the inside of the other
FF, are you basing your analysis on Henry's diagram or the OP's diagram?
Rich, If the OP wired the "outside" rail positive in the upper yard, and the 'outside" rail positive in the lower yard, seeing as the polarity switches rails in the yard there would be a short as soon as the power routing turnout is thrown to the divergent position and the two yards, with the + on different rails at the point of connection, are indeed connected. Just trying to figure why the short in a completely isolated section of track. Have to admit I do enjoy these puzzles.
floridaflyer I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard
I am still concerned that with the entire yard isolated, throwing the turnout in question still caused a short, independent of the rest of the layout. Agree that if the entrance to the bottom yard is part of the reversing section then it will work. However that shorting problem as soon as the turnout is thrown still bugs me with the total yard isolated from the rest of the layout. Tells me that the upper yard is different from the lower yard. If he wired the upper yard "outside" track and the lower "outside" the same, (either + or -) then he will have a short when the turnout is thrown as the + and - switch rails in the yard.
OK, I took a close look at the diagram that Henry first posted. To facilitate my analysis, I left out some tracks that I believe were not necessary to the analysis. So, that could have been a mistake, but I don't think so.
Here is what I found. The green line is, indeed, a reversing section, but the gapping is wrong. The gap at C is correct, but the gap at A is not correct. The gap to the left of the gap at A is correct.
Now, to completely isolate the reversing section, the gap at A needs to be moved down to the opposite end of the turnout, and a gap needs to be added to the other end of that second turnout because that lower yard lead track creates a point of reverse polarity.
OK, let me take a shot at it.
I see Florida's C-A-D-C path. I also remember that thread where the OP kept giving us different track plans.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Rich, I traced the same route on the latest diagram the OP provided, same result.
floridaflyer Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard.
Guys, I just traced the "outside" side of the main at the top of Big Daddy's diagram around to the lower yard entrance, entered the yard at the lower entrance to the yard, worked my way up to exit the yard at the upper entrance and the "outside" became the "inside". Would like others to verify this as it is a bit tricky but it appears there is a reversing section in the yard. The turnout in question is the point at which the short occurs when the divergent route is thrown. At least I think so.
floridaflyerBig Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
I added that to my drawing. I'm not sure what that gets us. Is his theory that polarity can be tested with an led correct?
Big Daddy, the OP's diagram does show gaps behind the shed to the rear of the roundhouse.
I think that is correct Rich
I believe so. I redid my drawing in case the accidental gaps were misleading.
We are presuming the AR in the yard is somehow connected to the turntable wiring.
So, that diagram just shows the yard where there is no reversing section. The reversing section is not really shown in the diagram except a small portion in the lower right corner of the diagram. Is that what we are saying?