Agree Rich. Maybe there is something with the turnout. If the short persists tomorrow, which I think it will, perhaps he could do the following, have the turnout in the tangent position(no short), then jumper from the + rail on the upper yard to the + rail on the lower yard, do the same with the -. Do not jumper from any part of the turnout, but rather the rails leading to the turnout, this would transfer power between yards and not go thru the turnout. If this does not cause a short then the problem is in, or at, the turnout. If this does cause a short then it's back to square one my friend.
floridaflyer guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connection the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connection the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
According to the OP, the offending turnout in the service yard was shorting out the layout when the points were thrown to the divergent route. My conclusion was that the mismatched polarities on the lower portion of the mainline triggered a short when the divergent route was selected. But, then, I recalled that the service yard was totally isolated, so no short should occur regardless of the route selected on that offending turnout.
So, now I am thinking that one of the gaps, either at the top or bottom of the service yard is not fully open, letting current through. If that is the case, simply adding those gaps where i indicated with the gold colored circles may not end his shorting problem.
In other words, those three gold colored circles at the bottom of the track diagram represent the location of gaps to fully isolate the A-C reversing section. By placing gaps in those locations, the A-C reversing section will not short the layout. That's a certainty.
But, the shorting problem may remain in the service yard because it is already fully gapped and isolated, even though it is not a reversing section. Yet, when the points are thrown on that offending turnout, a dead short occurs when it shouldn't. So, my concern is that there is still an issue inside the service yard.
Am I making sense?
Rich
Alton Junction
guys, given that the upper yard and the lower yard are in phase, it shouldn't matter which way the turnout connecting the two yards is thrown, yet is does. The upper yard is in phase with the upper main, no problem, the lower yard is not in phase with the lower main and Rich's solution corrects that, but yet when the two "in phase" yards are connected, it shorts, and it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how things shake out tomorrow.
Thank you Rich. I'll let you all know how it turned out Sunday (looks like I have to work Saturday. J.R.
OK, I spent some time reworking the J.R.'s track diagram and extended some of the rails to include more of the mainlines. Here are some thoughts and observations.
~ I placed gold colored circles where the gaps should be, some over your marks and others at different locations.
~ You need to remove the gap at Henry's position A, so that the reversing section along the right side is lengthened by moving the gap further down the line.
~ You need to add a gap on that inner mainline at the bottom to full isolate the lengthened reversing section.
~ Check the marked gap at the entry to the upper portion of the service yard to make sure it is open. I suspect a problem there that permitted the short to carry around to the bottom of the lower mainline.
~ In the service yard, all of the black feeders should be on the top rail, and all of the red feeders should be on the bottom rail.
~ On the upper mainlines, all of the black feeders should be on the top rail, and all of the red feeders should be on the bottom rail. This will result in the opposite effect as the mainlines circle around so that the bottom mainlines will appear to have the red feeders on the top rail and the black feeders on the bottom rail.
By the way, since the service yard will not be a reversing section, you really don't need to gap the entries to the classification yard and the upper portion of the service yard, unless you want each yard to be a separate power district.
I might add that dead spots are more common in yards with power routing turnouts like Peco. Unless you purposely want to kill power to a siding or spur, it makes sense to add feeders to all three ends of every turnout to ensure power at all times, not just when the points are thrown. These actions should result in flawless operation without any shorts.
Good luck!
Thanks guys. Normally I fill the gaps with styrene held in with AC then shaped but I haven't gotten that far yet. I will look for further advice later. J.R.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread. Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. Rich
Doughless Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Ok, throwing a power routing turnout to one side caused a reverse loop to occur because the yard complex was not isolated from the mainline turnback loop correctly. I think that's where most were headed early on in the thread.
Correct. When you think about it, most problems with reversing sections occur either due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring. That sure seems to be the case here, pending the OP following up on all of our replies. Sometimes, the problem can be a faulty turnout, a trip setting on the auto-reverser, or a closed gap, but most often it is due to incorrect gapping or improper wiring.
Agreed, that's why my second thought in my first post was asking of the mainline loop gaps were still functioning correctly.
- Douglas
J.R., thanks for that update. If you want to hold off for a few hours before adding more feeders, I will post a drawing to illustrate the location and placement of gaps and feeders now that we more fully understand what you have done with gaps and feeders. That way, you can have a more productive, and successful, weekend with your layout.
Good Morning All,
I added gaps as suggested and I think though it shouldn't be that somehow I generated an out of polarity situation with the turnout that shorted out the entire yard. Gapping the divergent route stopped the shorting. I also added all the other gaps suggested so the main is entirely isolated from the lower yard throat. With all the yard tracks powered just on the end, I now get dead spots in the yard depending on how the power routing turnouts are set so more drops are in order though this time I will connect them one at a time and prove each one one at a time. I did while going through the yard turnouts find one where I think the frog tracks were so close they actually touched. Since it was over by the back shop the tracks were frequently unpowered as the intent is to tie up MOW equipment there. switching to power that section of rail generated the short but only when the points directed power there. I've never been an ace at trackwork but i outdid myself this time. As always, slow steady and methodical would have saved the day. After I do the rest of the drops and prove them, I will report back. Thanks again to all. J.R.
Sure wish we would have recognized the dots earlier.
richhotrain Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop. Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location. Rich
Doughless Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped. Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
Ok, but the tail can be wired only one way, it either has to short the diverging side or the tangent side, if the yards are wired oppositely. So OP would have to flip the yards as the turnout is flipped.
Or just wire the yards and the tail all the same as long as its all isolated from the main loop.
Again, as it turns out, the upper and lower portions of the service yard are wired the same way. So, the problem is located below the service yard where the inner mainline meets the connection to/from the lower portion of the service yard. The OP needs to add a pair of gaps at that location.
Doughless richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
richhotrain Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered. But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short. Rich
Doughless, it is a power routing turnout, a Peco Code 100 Insulfrog. So, yes, when the points are thrown, only the selected route is powered.
But go back and read the OP's earlier posts. The offending turnout, circled in black, does not generate a short when the straight through route is selected. However, when the divergent route is selected, the service yard shorts. That indicates that the tail end of the offending turnout is wired one way and the track on the divergent route is wired a different way. A short is generated when the the divergent route is selected due to mismatched polarities. Gapping the divergent end of the offending turnout will eliminate the short.
Ok I get it. I didn't catch that the problem had gotten narrowed down to that.
The way that the layout is gapped right now, when the point rails on the offending turnout are thrown to the divergent route, a short occurs due to mismatched polarities where the inner mainline runs along the bottom of the diagram provided by the OP. That's why he needs to add a pair of gaps at the location of the mismatched polarities.
Nevermind. Still confused so I'll bow out.
GMTRacingThe service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
So, the entire service yard is wired in phase. That being the case, if you locate the gaps where I drew gold circles in the diagram on page 2, the layout will work without shorting, regardless of the position of the point rails on the offending turnout.
By the way, that leftmost gold colored (circle) gap on the inner mainline is critical to completely isolating the reversing section. Once that is done, the service yard is no longer a reversing section. The only reversing section is that section of track that Henry designated as A-C.
All,
Taking a break and heading out early to look at this some more. I am convinced you are correct and I have a polarity conflict in the middle of the yard. It's just a matter of finding it.
The service yard drawing has little black and red dots next to the left hand end of each track. They represent the colors of the drops to the buss (also color coded below the layout). I used just two color drops and tried to keep them phased properly so I could trace more easily. Also each buss is color coded differently and numbered for good measure.
I tried to prove the track as I went along but the big issue I came here for showed up after the service yard was put in this year. So yes, first thing to check is what you did last. I did just that. The shorting turnout at the yard throat is one that had no diverging track connected to it prior to this year. Obviously I didn't do myself any favours waiting several years between stints on the layout but work and life got in the way and bottom line is your discretionary time gets cut first. Not an excuse, just an observation.
As I have said before, I do appreciate the help and I do keep the forum on a tab during the day sneaking a peek between office visits and the shop. The diner has been a habit since I first came here years ago and I see some of you in and out of there as well. I am much more comfortable giving chassis setup advice than model railroad advice and DCC frequently has me flummoxed (something to do with a lifetime of dealing with Lucas electrics I think). I'm willing to learn.
Cheers, J.R.
GMTRacing service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
service yard 001 by J.R. Mitchell, on Flickr" alt="service yard" />
GMTRacing Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Here is a hopefully better and more understandable drawing of the service yard. The turnout circled in black is the one that shuts everything down when thrown to the diverging track.
Looking at the top track in the service yard (the track right below the blue colored classification yard tracks), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Looking at the bottom track in the service yard (the track right above the purple colored main line track), what color feeder wire is connected to the top rail and what color feeder wire is connected to the bottom rail?
Tell us that and we can definitively solve your problem.
I had a long reply get eaten by the internet monster, but the gist of it was this:
There is a reason I prefer drawing my layout with a CAD program. Anything I would hand draw would be horrible to look at and attempt to decipher. Some even can automatically set one rail to one color and the other rail to another color. I have to see if mine can do that, because a friend of mine wands a wiring diagram for the layout I drew for him.
Part 2 was - to check for the right color feeders and bus, take a cheap plastic box car and paint one side the color of one bus line, and the other side the color of the other bus wire, split down the middle the long way. Put the car on the track and don't pick it up. The approriate color side is the bus that that rail should be connected to. If the car comes back to a spot that is already wired and the colors are swapped, that means you have a reverse loop. No electronics, no gadgets, just a cheap train set car and some cheap paint.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
For what it's worth, I started doing an entire track plan with both tracks colored differently and it is too unweildly . I can do the lower yard as a stand alone drawing - that would be doable but after two tries I came up with a mess trying to draw the entire layout. I do read what is written here and have been proceeding one step at a time. I did spend time trying to trace the fault that stops everything as it is the last real issue I see and despite advice and effort is not resolved yet. I will get the yard drawing done and it should be by tomorrow. It is not lack of cooperation so much as the 12 hours a day I spend running this shop. It sort of limits my free time a bit. J.R.
The OP has a real job and life can get in the way of MR. He'll last posted yesterday, so it's not like he has abandoned the thread.
We are almost due for a new electrical mystery to appear in a new thread.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
floridaflyer We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
We agree 100%. Either rewire the lower yard to match the upper and use the current reversing section, or isolate the the lower(or upper for that matter) and make it a seperate reversing section. In fact he could isolate the lower and expand the current reversing section to include the lower yard. It's been fun working on this Rich.
mbinsewi He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem. I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has? I dunno! Mike.
He spends a lot time posting in the diner, I don't know why he's not cooperating more in here with his problem.
I've been following. It seems you still need a track plan for just what he has?
I dunno!
Mike.
But, here is what I really wish the OP would do. Tell us how the service yard is wired. Let's say that the feeder wires are blue and red. Which rail is wired blue and which rail is wired red, in the upper portion of the yard and in the lower portion of the yard? How hard can that be to do?
My You Tube
Although the OP still has not told us how the service yard is wired in terms of polarity, I finally relented and abandoned my assumption that the upper half of the service yard is wired the same way as the lower half of the service yard.
So, I redid my analysis based upon the assumption that the polarity of the upper portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the top portion of the mainline oval, whereas the polarity of the lower portion of the service yard matches the polarity of the bottom portion of the mailine oval. That results in a polarity mismatch at the end of the divergent side of the "problem" turnout, as florida flyer has pointed out.
If, indeed, the OP wired the service yard in that manner, a simple fix would be to gap the divergent end of the "problem" turnout. That would isolate the lower portion of the service yard, requiring a second auto-reverser in addition to the auto-reverser controlling that A-C reversing section.
That said, if both portions of the service yard were wired the same way with matching polarities to the upper portion of the mainline oval, no second reversing section would be created as a result. In that event, if the three gold-colored gaps were placed as illustrated in a much earlier reply, the layout would function without a short and without the need for a second auto-reverser.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
Rich, It's the way that the turnout in question connects the two yards that causes the problem, when the divergent route is thrown the +rail from the upper yard is reversed at the turnout and tries to leave on the - of the lower yard, result-short.
the phase of the lower yard needs to be reversed so as to have a smooth flow from the top entrance, on the same rail throught both yards down to the expanded reversing section at the lower turnout. As currently wired, the shorting turnout reverses the rails and the + from the upper yard tries goes out of the turnout on the - of the lower yard. and this causes the short
The turnout in question is still going to reverse the plase of the rails but by reversing the rails in the lower yard, it insures that when the turnout reverses the rails, the + input from the upper yard will still go out on the same rail as it tried to before, but because we reversed the rails on the lower yard that rail is no longer - but + and there is no conflict. It should be noted that now both yards are out of phase with the connection to the main at the entrance to the lower main and that is where the reversing section comes into play Having the rails in phase throughout both yards and the single expanded reversing section at the point where the lower yard rejoins the main will do the trick
When I have made my 2-color, 2-rail drawings, using both Henry's diagram and the OP's diagram, I have assumed that both yards are wired in phase to match the polarities of the top portion of the mainline oval. That assumption also limits the need for auto-reversers to one since there would only be one reversing section (A-C).