I guess that depends on what you consider a "True Bluetooth System". At the moment Bluetooth controlled locomotives and the smart device app to run them is what is available. The fact that Bachmann/Bluerail are bringing it into the mainstream shows that there is confidence that they can grow it into a full fledged "System". You don't need another command system to run it just 16 volts into the track. It really isn't for everyone but to those who are interested it is a really cool piece of forward thinking technology.
I think that instead of focusing on what it doesn't do we could take advantage of this opportunity to make positive suggestions that Bachmann/Bluerail can incorporate to make this a better way to run model trains.
You don't sound negative to me, Rich. Just honest.
For my part, I smell the potential to eliminate my most loathed aspect of this hobby - wiring - and a bit of money sounds like a reasonable trade. But that's just it; $167 per loco is more than just a bit. Looking at dozens of future locos, that's a big chunk. Do I leap or not? I'd like to, but money is not a small barrier; my family needs to eat.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Sir Madog Before this gets any deeper into what we already had "over there" in the other thread, let´s hear who is actually using a bluetooth device to control his/her trains. Once we have established a feel for how many folks are into this, I think it is much easier to stay on track in this discussion.
Before this gets any deeper into what we already had "over there" in the other thread, let´s hear who is actually using a bluetooth device to control his/her trains.
Once we have established a feel for how many folks are into this, I think it is much easier to stay on track in this discussion.
Alton Junction
Glass half empty/half full - I tend to see the glass as half full while you look at it as half empty. I believe if there are problems they can and will be worked out. better to be optomistic and look forward to the possibilities...
BuckscoThe public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them.
Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators.
BuckscoThe beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated.
But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them. The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated. I think it is important to realize that as the user base grows and more "wants" from users are forwarded to the software developers the app will become more robust and in turn do more of what we all want. The ability for the app to evolve is one of it's major strengths.
DoughlessCan I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
The company and product name is Bluerail, as it happens.
As others have noted, one can use DC or DCC to power the rails, which is the right choice on Bluerail’s part. What is not often mentioned is that there are still reverse-loop issues when using DC, so you would still need toggle switches (or something similar) to manage any reversing connections with DC-rail-powered Bluerail. DCC-rail-powered Bluerail should be able to use DCC auto-reversers (I believe), although I have not seen that spelled-out in the Bluerail documentation.
jalajoieOn the Bluerail app the list that appears is there to select the loco. We only have to touch the icon to select the loco of our choice and then hit the connect icon.
There is a difference, based on the way Bluetooth pairing works and the way NCE works. With NCE, one can always select a loco (using the loco number, typically), no matter if it was previously selected by another throttle. With Bluetooth in general and Bluerail in particular, if another device has paired with that loco already, you won't see it in the Bluerail app and can't choose it until the other smartphone/tablet has unpaired (Edit: At least, as I understand from the Bluerail manual).
These and other pairing issues are not important for those running one or two locos with one or a couple of smartphone throttles. If one considers the needs of larger layouts and multiple operators, pairing challenges become greater. It's not clear to date how Bluerail will manage these. This is potentially exacerbated by the apparent plan to put a separate logical Bluetooth device in the loco to handle on-board sound, which would require extra steps in pairing/unpairing.
The capability for anyone who has downloaded the free Bluerail app to pick up any unpaired loco on a layout may be a concern in public display layouts, where any bystander could take control of an engine. Or pair with it and keep the layout operators from taking control until they did a power cycle. Or a layout operator could simply inadvertently take over an engine on a nearby layout.
Most wireless DCC providers have schemes of network identification and security that lock out unauthorized throttles. Even if a visitor to a train show did show up with a DCC throttle in his pocket, he couldn’t access a wireless layout.
Maybe Bluerail has a plan to address this, or maybe they consider it such a rare possibility that it’s not worth guarding against. But since the app is freely available, it’s something that I have wondered about.
jalajoieI find it usefull as i can identify more precisely the loco. For example my P2K E6 is labelled B&O E6.
What if you had more than one E6? In DCC the engine number is a handy way to distinguish units. Of course, the same could be done in Bluerail -- and likely will be if it is deployed on layouts with larger numbers of engines and operators.
Okay. I'm excited about this. Why? Dead rail operation. No wiring. This works for me; every MR project I take on stalls at the wiring stage. I don't like it, I'm not good at it, and many shiny objects inevitably present themselves on the way to wiring something in the Growlery. I know, I know, there'll be some to do in the locomotives, but screwing with locos is fun, wiring under benchwork is not.
$167 USD per loco has me hesitating though. Anyone tried Bluerail's dead rail kit?
Watching. Interested. That I don't have to ditch all my dcc--that dcc and bluerail can coexist--has my ears pricked up. There will be some missing features early on, I get that. New tech works like that; things evolve over time.
In order to run the locomotive with the App - yes it needs to have a Bluetooth board installed.
Bucksco You can wire a Bluetooth board so that you can use the app to run a DC layout - http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/ You can update your older DCC locos with a bluetooth board
You can wire a Bluetooth board so that you can use the app to run a DC layout -
http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/
You can update your older DCC locos with a bluetooth board
Running silent DCC ready locomotives with Bluesystem seems pretty straightforward, as far as converting a locomotive.
So to run factory equipped DCC/Sound locos, I would need to replace the factory sound decoder with a Bluesystem sound decoder, correct? (not sure they offer it yet).
- Douglas
jalajoie Yes you can either DC or DCC.
Yes you can either DC or DCC.
richhotrain Jack, thanks for documenting what you like about this app. Permit me to respond to each point you made along with some questions since I am otherwise unfamiliar with operating trains using Bluetooth. I intend none of my comments as negative. 5. The fact that locos on the track show up on a roster is great. I suppose that is superior to systems such as my NCE throttle which only shows 6 locos or consists. 6. I guess that the virtual keyboard is useful in naming locos, assuming that someone wishes to do that. 7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE ssytem, setting CVs is fairly easy to do. Rich
Jack, thanks for documenting what you like about this app. Permit me to respond to each point you made along with some questions since I am otherwise unfamiliar with operating trains using Bluetooth. I intend none of my comments as negative.
5. The fact that locos on the track show up on a roster is great. I suppose that is superior to systems such as my NCE throttle which only shows 6 locos or consists.
6. I guess that the virtual keyboard is useful in naming locos, assuming that someone wishes to do that.
7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE ssytem, setting CVs is fairly easy to do.
Rich
Since Jack did not address items 5-6-7, here is my take on this.
5 - What appears on the Bluerail screen can't be compare to what is shown on the NCE throttle. They are two different animals. On the Bluerail app the list that appears is there to select the loco. We only have to touch the icon to select the loco of our choice and then hit the connect icon. On my NCE throttle what appears is the recall stack. For a loco to appear in that list one must first select the loco in pressing the select loco button, then punch the decoder address and finally hit enter to confirm.
6- I find it usefull as i can identify more precisely the loco. For example my P2K E6 is labelled B&O E6.
7- Honestly I don't know how the internal of these boards work. I kind of think of it as what JMRI is doing.
Hope this help and rest assure I will not ditch neither my Digitrax or NCE systems.
Jack W.
I like the idea of using a screen, particularly with slide controls. However, what I would need before converting would be for the 'chips' to be about half their existing size. I'm into two axle critters and I have been able to fit Loksound Select Micro decoders with a keep alive into things like Grandt Line's 25 tonner, but the existing Bluerail chip is way too big. I realize that I don't have to convert the existing switchers. I'm talking about future projects.
I do have about 8 full sized DC locomotives that need to be upgraded to DCC, so Bluerail certainly is a possibility for them. I'm sure the sound file selection will improve in the future.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Doughless Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket. I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far. Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far.
Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
CSX RobertNo, BlueRail needs Bluetooth 4.0, which the iPhone 3 does not have, so it is not a software issue but a hardware issue. They could have included compatibility with older versions of Bluetooth, but there are issues with them that make them not very suitable for model train control.
too bad. But I read up that 4.0 allows for feedback to the phone. This could in the future be possible to show things like amps or rpms converted to miles per hour on the screen.
Steve
richhotrain Jack, thanks for documenting what you like about this app. Permit me to respond to each point you made along with some questions since I am otherwise unfamiliar with operating trains using Bluetooth. I intend none of my comments as negative. 1. The communication protocol renders needless interface devices so this would be good for newcomers but for existing DCC users, is this an advantage since interface devices are already in use? 2. Do you need to purchase a Bluetooth equipped Bachman locomotive or can you just purchase a Bluetooth chip and install it in an existing locomotive from your roster? 3. Aren't existing interfaces also extremely easy to use in your opinion or is Bluetooth superior to other interfaces? 4. Is the online user manual superior to other user manuals such as the NCE manual which is part of my system? 5. The fact that locos on the track show up on a roster is great. I suppose that is superior to systems such as my NCE throttle which only shows 6 locos or consists. 6. I guess that the virtual keyboard is useful in naming locos, assuming that someone wishes to do that. 7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE ssytem, setting CVs is fairly easy to do. 8. I think that it remains to be seen how far Bluerail will go with constant software updates. As a new system, those constant updates are necessary to make Bluetooth competitive with DCC, but at some point will there even be a need for updates? 9. Co-existence with DC and DCC seems advantageous, I guess. But if you are going Bluetooth, why not go all the way and replace all DC and DCC locos with Bluetooth and maintain a dedicated Bluetooth system? 10. An iPad or iPhone as the preferred interface is clearly a matter of personal choice and will be at the heart of the debate over Bluetooth versus DCC. I will ask this. What is there to stop manufacturers like NCE from protecting their market share by creating an i-Pad or i-Phone based interface for DCC systems? Rich
1. The communication protocol renders needless interface devices so this would be good for newcomers but for existing DCC users, is this an advantage since interface devices are already in use?
2. Do you need to purchase a Bluetooth equipped Bachman locomotive or can you just purchase a Bluetooth chip and install it in an existing locomotive from your roster?
3. Aren't existing interfaces also extremely easy to use in your opinion or is Bluetooth superior to other interfaces?
4. Is the online user manual superior to other user manuals such as the NCE manual which is part of my system?
8. I think that it remains to be seen how far Bluerail will go with constant software updates. As a new system, those constant updates are necessary to make Bluetooth competitive with DCC, but at some point will there even be a need for updates?
9. Co-existence with DC and DCC seems advantageous, I guess. But if you are going Bluetooth, why not go all the way and replace all DC and DCC locos with Bluetooth and maintain a dedicated Bluetooth system?
10. An iPad or iPhone as the preferred interface is clearly a matter of personal choice and will be at the heart of the debate over Bluetooth versus DCC. I will ask this. What is there to stop manufacturers like NCE from protecting their market share by creating an i-Pad or i-Phone based interface for DCC systems?
1. Existing DCC users can keep the DCC equipment on the layout - Bluetooth equipped locos will coexist with the DCC equipment. There is no reason that you cannot have both.
3.I personally feel that the App's interface is far superior to the older hardware based DCC controllers.
4. The online manual is always present - all I have to do is touch an icon and it is available. Easy to navigate.
8.IMO there will always be a need for the ability to add new features.
9. As stated above there is no reason that the two systems cannot coexist on the same layout. At some point the control APP will be able to control both systems at the same time.
10.Other manufacturer's such as Roco have done this but used WiFi technology which like DCC needs interface equipment to communicate with the locos unlike the Bluetooth technology which is not dependent on other hardware.
Choops...I tried to download the app to my phone i phone 3 (I know its old) and it was not compatible. Do you know if bluerail will add older phones?..
No, BlueRail needs Bluetooth 4.0, which the iPhone 3 does not have, so it is not a software issue but a hardware issue. They could have included compatibility with older versions of Bluetooth, but there are issues with them that make them not very suitable for model train control.
Hello Jack
I am building a large layout now currently DC based. I got interested in this when it was first introduced. I like the fact that there is no in between connection to the controller. All that is needed to buy are the boards.
I tried to download the app to my phone i phone 3 (I know its old) and it was not compatible. Do you know if bluerail will add older phones? This would help keep costs down also.
It´s not limited to BlueRail, but inludes Bachmann´s E-Z App, or any interface, like Lenz, Roco z21, home-made stuff, iPhone touch-cab, Arduino based controls - whatever there is. Mind you, BlueRail is just one form of Bluetooth train control.
JEREMY CENTANNI Stevert JEREMY CENTANNI I get all the ingrained DCC guys not liking it and the people not liking phones for throttles. I don't mind something new and I'll gladly use a phone for a throttle when I go to the lub to screw around. I can use the DT402R when operating sessions or testing neew combinations out. Control your railroad (not just a loco) with a phone? Those "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing that since roughly December 2009, when WiThrottle support was introduced in JMRI. Use tablets as either throttles (too bulky, but entirely possible) or better still as wireless, touch-enabled local panels around the layout, instead of those "old fashioned" toggle/push button wired panels? Yup, been doing that for years, too. So what Bluetooth is just now scratching the surface of, and more, the "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing for years without having to tear out their investment and starting over. To keep this post more or less on topic: I haven't used Bluetooth for any MRR-related stuff, but if there's ever an instance where I think it's the best solution for me, I'll go for it. Why wouldn't I? After all, I'm already using all the "new" phone/tablet stuff I mentioned above. Yes and what is the point? They still forked over for the DCC system, the computer interface and had to sort it all out. "Ingrained DCC guys" is a mute term in this thread since it's about Bluerail. It let's you do all the above without having to bang your head into the wall and backwards compatible as well. At the end of the day it is about preference. I have a Zephyr, PR3, DT402R and I don't even have a layout at home to run it on. Glorified 45 inch test track is where my home action comes in. I usually go to the club at least once a week with my oldest boy time permitting work wise. Bluerail when it is sorted out would let me skip the Zephyr, PR3 and DT402R, which even on the cheap and getting near at cost deals still ran me $430 to acquire. Worst I can see would be an add on type command station setup for greater control hooked to a pc for signaling, lighting, etc. Also would be a low cost option floating around shortly thereafter as well due to Arduino and the like, so it would have legs to run on. Like it has been mentioned, it is really nice to put a loco on the tracks and there it is. No selecting, keeping track of numbers,etc. It's not perfect yet, but I bet it jumps leaps and bounds here very quickly. Even if it only spreads thru all Bachmann lines your looking at a large user base in relativley short order. It was never my intent to argue about it. I want to see new things come to life and I want to see affordable easy to use stuff available to pull more folks into this hobby. Something like Bluerail has that opportunity due to ease of use. I will never back down from the fact that Digitrax manuals are poorly written. How many kids today spend time with the dad building anything? Painting, building kits, framing, doing sound installs? It's the minority doing all this stuff anymore it seems. Stuff that appeals to new folks and is easy to use is needed, backwards compatibility is a huge plus(and a necessary one).
Stevert JEREMY CENTANNI I get all the ingrained DCC guys not liking it and the people not liking phones for throttles. I don't mind something new and I'll gladly use a phone for a throttle when I go to the lub to screw around. I can use the DT402R when operating sessions or testing neew combinations out. Control your railroad (not just a loco) with a phone? Those "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing that since roughly December 2009, when WiThrottle support was introduced in JMRI. Use tablets as either throttles (too bulky, but entirely possible) or better still as wireless, touch-enabled local panels around the layout, instead of those "old fashioned" toggle/push button wired panels? Yup, been doing that for years, too. So what Bluetooth is just now scratching the surface of, and more, the "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing for years without having to tear out their investment and starting over. To keep this post more or less on topic: I haven't used Bluetooth for any MRR-related stuff, but if there's ever an instance where I think it's the best solution for me, I'll go for it. Why wouldn't I? After all, I'm already using all the "new" phone/tablet stuff I mentioned above.
JEREMY CENTANNI I get all the ingrained DCC guys not liking it and the people not liking phones for throttles. I don't mind something new and I'll gladly use a phone for a throttle when I go to the lub to screw around. I can use the DT402R when operating sessions or testing neew combinations out.
I get all the ingrained DCC guys not liking it and the people not liking phones for throttles. I don't mind something new and I'll gladly use a phone for a throttle when I go to the lub to screw around. I can use the DT402R when operating sessions or testing neew combinations out.
Control your railroad (not just a loco) with a phone? Those "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing that since roughly December 2009, when WiThrottle support was introduced in JMRI.
Use tablets as either throttles (too bulky, but entirely possible) or better still as wireless, touch-enabled local panels around the layout, instead of those "old fashioned" toggle/push button wired panels? Yup, been doing that for years, too.
So what Bluetooth is just now scratching the surface of, and more, the "ingrained DCC guys" have been doing for years without having to tear out their investment and starting over.
To keep this post more or less on topic:
I haven't used Bluetooth for any MRR-related stuff, but if there's ever an instance where I think it's the best solution for me, I'll go for it. Why wouldn't I? After all, I'm already using all the "new" phone/tablet stuff I mentioned above.
Yes and what is the point?
They still forked over for the DCC system, the computer interface and had to sort it all out.
"Ingrained DCC guys" is a mute term in this thread since it's about Bluerail.
It let's you do all the above without having to bang your head into the wall and backwards compatible as well.
At the end of the day it is about preference. I have a Zephyr, PR3, DT402R and I don't even have a layout at home to run it on. Glorified 45 inch test track is where my home action comes in. I usually go to the club at least once a week with my oldest boy time permitting work wise.
Bluerail when it is sorted out would let me skip the Zephyr, PR3 and DT402R, which even on the cheap and getting near at cost deals still ran me $430 to acquire. Worst I can see would be an add on type command station setup for greater control hooked to a pc for signaling, lighting, etc. Also would be a low cost option floating around shortly thereafter as well due to Arduino and the like, so it would have legs to run on.
Like it has been mentioned, it is really nice to put a loco on the tracks and there it is. No selecting, keeping track of numbers,etc.
It's not perfect yet, but I bet it jumps leaps and bounds here very quickly. Even if it only spreads thru all Bachmann lines your looking at a large user base in relativley short order.
It was never my intent to argue about it. I want to see new things come to life and I want to see affordable easy to use stuff available to pull more folks into this hobby. Something like Bluerail has that opportunity due to ease of use. I will never back down from the fact that Digitrax manuals are poorly written.
How many kids today spend time with the dad building anything? Painting, building kits, framing, doing sound installs? It's the minority doing all this stuff anymore it seems. Stuff that appeals to new folks and is easy to use is needed, backwards compatibility is a huge plus(and a necessary one).
Respectfully, the fact that you don't have a layout, or a specific set of layout or operational goals says a lot about your position on this topic - and that's fine.
But until this product can meet the operational needs of my layout, it is a total non starter for me. Again, others may be comfortable, or even like the idea of more than one kind of control system on their layouts, but its not happening here.
So advanced DC still is the winner here.......
Even with that, as I said above, I hope Bluerail, and all the alternitive systems do well.
And the DCC manufacturterers would do well to improve their interfaces - I have been saying that for years now.
Now for my cold, negative comment, I don't give one seconds thought to what will get young people in the hobby. I did my part on that years ago running the train department of a hobby shop.
Today, for me this hobby is about me..........and my goals for my layout. If others come see my layout and enjoy it, great, if not, that's OK too.
Sheldon
Bucksco Sheldon - you are jumping a bit ahead of what the current version of the app is capable of. You can only pair with as many Bluetooth items as the device is capable of pairing with which for an IOS device is around 60 - not too sure about Android. Multiple unit operation is scheduled to arrive soon so we will see how the app deals with it when it arrives. As you have made clear you operate in DC so it shouldn't be of concern in regard to your current equipment. To the guys posting in this thread about why they won't use this please do me a favor and post the negativity to the other thread - it is basically a discussion being held by all of the guys who don't want to use Bluetooth. I would like to attempt to keep this thread going as a discussion of people's experiences who have actually used the Bachmann/Bluerail product.
Sheldon - you are jumping a bit ahead of what the current version of the app is capable of. You can only pair with as many Bluetooth items as the device is capable of pairing with which for an IOS device is around 60 - not too sure about Android. Multiple unit operation is scheduled to arrive soon so we will see how the app deals with it when it arrives. As you have made clear you operate in DC so it shouldn't be of concern in regard to your current equipment.
To the guys posting in this thread about why they won't use this please do me a favor and post the negativity to the other thread - it is basically a discussion being held by all of the guys who don't want to use Bluetooth. I would like to attempt to keep this thread going as a discussion of people's experiences who have actually used the Bachmann/Bluerail product.
But Jack, the point of my question is to understand how Bluerail could/would be applied to my layout? Is that not the point of promoting a new product, to get people interested in using it.
Then you tell me it can't do the most basic thing in the whole hobby, and I am supposed to be interested in it - as explained previosly - I don't have time to dabble with half developed products.
And that is the biggest problem I see, they should have developed the product, then started selling it, not the other way around. Kind of like that preodering system I don't do either........
If you don't have the time and money to run with the big dogs - stay on the porch........
7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE system, setting CVs is fairly easy to do.
Never mind
Yeah Jack, this is brutal. Surprised? No. It's constant. Destroy destroy destroy.
I have not used the blue-teeth with my layout yet. The little bit you've explained is very interesting. I certainly like the idea. I was late to the smart phone game, didn't want to be one of those with my face in my phone. But I've changed. I love it now.
Once I've finished school and have more time I will give the new technological addition to our hobby a closer look. Trade this phone in? Nope- it's model railroad hardware.
T e d