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Bluetooth Control for Trains - a thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:05 PM

Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:50 PM

So that would answer my prior question (posted waaaaaay back when on the other thread and was never answered) about how conveniently the batteries would be recharged.  Thanks, Sheldon.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:55 PM

richhotrain

 

 
Bucksco

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

 

 

 

If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame?

 

Rich

 

Only if you wanted to use thetrack to charge batteries.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:48 PM

Bucksco

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

 

If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:45 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

 

 

The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail.

But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff.

Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale.

Sheldon

 

Thanks, Sheldon. I Googled 'direct radio and dead rail' and came up with some interesting web sites.  

Two technologies are required to free model railroading from its dependence on track power and communication -- radio to communicate with locomotives and batteries to provide an on-board power supply.

This is really interesting stuff, especially for S-scale American Flyer vintage locomotives.

Rich

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Posted by Bucksco on Sunday, July 24, 2016 11:00 AM

richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on wheter or not you could isolate the motor. Since american Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:31 AM

richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail.

But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff.

Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:43 AM

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, July 23, 2016 6:00 PM

Rich,

I believe Your response about Me using DC to control My trains is not justified/irrelevant..Your assuming I have no knowledge of Bluetooth....which contrary to Your assumption I have been delving into it for quite a few years now. The RC trucks/cars that I build. including the camera equipped quad copter that I am still messing with is Bluetooth controlled. Seeing as how this thread is about Bluetooth for train use, I did not think it necessary to tell of use in RC equipment, which has been out a lot longer. There are other forums that I belong to that discuss RC Apps. Trains Are not My only hobby.

I also will stay a DC user....Thank You!

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

This RC Truck kit by Tamiya is Bluetooth controlled:

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:49 AM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What does that say about me?

 

It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it) Smile

 

Yes, it is a shortcoming that results from having been taught to think critically for myself..........

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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:44 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What does that say about me?

It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it) Smile

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by Doughless on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:34 AM

Well said Rich.

I too am interested in any kind of direct control for my trains, although admittedly, I don't care if it would use a smartphone..........or future development of telepathic skills within my brain.  When that happens, I certainly won't imply that those still using Iphone1,056 are dinosaurs who are scared of embracing change.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:32 AM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.

 

Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"?

Social media is a big smartphone thing.  Forums are a form of social media.  Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing.  This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail.

Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant.  Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point.  If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?

 

Carl, I don't disgree with you first point, but I do disagree with any idea that suggests a large percentage, or even a significant percentage of ALL model railroaders spend much time on these forums.

So, of the people who do spend time on forums, sure, there is a higher likelyhood they would be exposed to Bluerail and be inclined to give it a try.

But here is a twist, I participate in this forum, and one other forum for a different hobby. I'm not on facebook or any other social media, I don't own a smart phone, I don't belong to any other "online" groups of a social or hobby nature. But I do lots of online research and shopping, for work and play. What does that say about me? I knew about Bluerail pretty early on, I did not need this forum to find it.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:29 AM

zstripe
 
 
Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.

''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

I think what is missing here is a complete understanding and acceptance of the fact that this is a public forum. It is, or at least should be, open to all forms of on topic discussion.
 
Fortunately, the forum is tightly monitored so that name calling and flaming are not tolerated. But, as a pubic forum, it should not be controlled by trying to make a particular thread exclusive. In this case, there is an attempt to make the thread exclusive by limiting replies only to those members who actually use Bluetooth to run trains.
 
Under that condition, even Frank's reply would be nullified since he is a DC user and offers nothing in his reply in the way of Bluetooth experience in running trains. Since the purpose of a public forum is to make all threads inclusive, all civil opinions, pro or con, should be welcomed.
 
That said, I will reiterate my previously expressed opinion that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and learning from it. I now know a lot more about Bluetooth and dead rail than I did before. Even those replies that have been labeled as "negative" add to the discussion in a very critical way.
 
If you read those"negative" replies carefully, the points made against Bluetooth can be discerned by thinking people to form their own opinions. For example, when Sheldon lays out his case for why he will likely never use Bluetooth to run his trains and enumerates his reasons why he won't, that is not negative. Without ever trying Bluetooth, you can simply agree with him, or you can form the opposite opinion from what he objects to and conclude that Bluetooth/dead rail may be right for you.
 
My point is, stop replying just to say that the thread is negative when it is not and use your brain to form your own opinion. That is what I am doing. I am seriously considering building my Dream Layout, and thanks to this thread and the other one, I am giving some consideration to Bluetooth and dead rail. You all should do the same instead of playing forum cop.
 
Rich 

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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:19 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.

Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"?

Social media is a big smartphone thing.  Forums are a form of social media.  Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing.  This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail.

Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant.  Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point.  If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:00 AM

Bucksco

 

 
zstripe
 
Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

 

 

It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.

''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct Frank! I started to think about the fact that DCC has been around for approximately 30 years and it has taken that long to become somewhat "accepted" as the defacto control system - although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. I googled "What percentage of Model Railroaders use DCC" and a thread from this forum popped up that was basically run down the same path by the same folks http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/248328/2770210.aspx  so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.

 

Jack, If you really read a lot of those DC vs DCC threads, you will find that while I use DC on my layout, I am a big supporter of choice, and of the idea that no one control system suits the needs of every layout or every modeler.

In 9-10 years I have typed that more times than there are stars in the sky.

I apparently do not have as much time or money as you, because I cannot afford to buy stuff just to see how it works or to play with it to see if I like it.

Or like I said before, maybe I'm just at a different place in the hobby that does not afford me that luxury.

As I said before, I like the idea of a command control system that talks directly to the loco, not to a big infrastructure under the layout. And if Bluetooth proves to be the best way to do that, I might be interested one day.

But I'm mot interested in being the Guinea Pig.

It has taken DCC this long because people with medium to large layouts are not willing to throw away thousands of dollars worth of equipment and thousands of hours of work just to try something new - a point I have made repeatedly which you simply ignore.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by passenger1955 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:54 AM

I have a BlueRail plugin board and one Bachmann EZ App loco. I belong to a club that is NCE. My home layout is DC.  I have locos by various manufacturers (Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, BL, MTH) and have played with Tam Valley and SCab. Many bluetooth users post in the Dead Rail Society facebook page and all seem really happy.  BlueRail talks in their emails about their high satisfaction rate. I love mine, so I get it. I am mostly HO. I've seen users that are O, G, On30 and S. I've put the board in a few different DCC-Ready steam tenders. The BR app has tuning options to tweak the slow speed operation on each loco (but the defaults usually work fine). The chuff-rate calibration is easy to use. I haven't played with the ditch lights. As others have mentioned, the interface is intuitive. There is a user manual on the website, but I've never had to use it. I like that I can bring my loco to the club and run it there too. In their emails BlueRail says they are about to add consisting to the app, and say they will move on to tackling onboard sound and integration with DCC. My only complaint on the non-DeadRail side is this first board doesn't have a place to attach a keep alive, but they say they will release a narrow board soon (targeting narrow diesels) and will add that connection option. They also talk about adding modules to the app to simulate operating sessions (dispatching, freight/passenger operations etc). I look forward to seeing where that goes. As people have said, if you've already dropped thousands of dollars on DCC, have JMRI all set up, and are happy - there's probably not much appeal. I'm not in that category. Based on emails from BlueRail, it seems like these technologies are moving towards merging anyway.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:49 AM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........

 

True, but in my mind, because of the link between social media and the smartphone, my belief is that the percentage of folks here using Bluerail would be significantly higher than the percentage of modelers in general.  I would even go so far as to say that MOST Bluerail users are also forum users (maybe not this forum).  If you are not active online, how would you even know that Bluerail exists?

 

Carl, using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.

I know lots of modelers right here in my area, who buy most all their trains online, who are very tech savy, but never go on forums. One is the retired head of IT for a major east coast utility company - I think he knows his way around a computer or a smart phone - but he, and others, choose not to spend ONE MINUTE on this or any other forum.

And a lot of these same people don't spend time on "general" social media either - facebook, etc.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Doughless on Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:33 AM

Bucksco

- although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread.   so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.

Over the course of both threads, you seem to place a value judgment upon people based upon what train control system they use.  Its just trains.  Its just about moving trains.  Its not a religion.  There is no conversion needed here.  People are neither open-minded or closed minded because of how they choose to move their model trains.

Most people just try to solve the problem of multiple train movement (or even what they use a phone for in their daily life) in a way that suits their needs.  Its simple problem solving, not a personality test.

They don't equate their use of technology as a means of judging what kind of person they are.  But your posts are dripping with that kind of attitude, and that's the reason the thread wanders in a way you don't want it to.

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Posted by Bucksco on Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:33 AM

zstripe
 
Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

 

 

It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.

''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

 

You are absolutely correct Frank! I started to think about the fact that DCC has been around for approximately 30 years and it has taken that long to become somewhat "accepted" as the defacto control system - although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. I googled "What percentage of Model Railroaders use DCC" and a thread from this forum popped up that was basically run down the same path by the same folks http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/248328/2770210.aspx  so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.

Jack
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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:25 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........

True, but in my mind, because of the link between social media and the smartphone, my belief is that the percentage of folks here using Bluerail would be significantly higher than the percentage of modelers in general.  I would even go so far as to say that MOST Bluerail users are also forum users (maybe not this forum).  If you are not active online, how would you even know that Bluerail exists?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:05 AM

Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.

''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:58 AM

Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

Jack we are waiting just like you for all these other users of Bluerail to speak up...................................

(crickets chirping)

Above I clearly defended the fact that there may well be lots of people interested in, and using Bluerail, but they are clearly not on this forum..........

I for one have made my position clear, I'm not running to the phone store, buying a phone I don't need/want, ordering a reciever, downloading an app, and giving it a try.

Seems that if we truely restricted posts on this thread to those who are using Bluerail, the post count would be two.........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:54 AM

Old Fat Robert
Now that we have covered all the theories and discussed all the ways that BR is or is not a worthy addition to the model railroading universe, can some one please talk about the actual operating characteristics of the system? I thought that was what this thread was based on.

Yes, exactly.  I fail to see why some cannot be courteous enough to refrain from posting the same old same old that they have already posted in the other thread.

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Posted by Bucksco on Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:51 AM

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

Jack
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:52 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........

Totally agree with that, Sheldon.

If you really want to hear the pros and cons on Bluetooth for model trains, just Google 'bluetooth model railroad forums' to find discussions from those who actually use the system. But, be prepared for the same type of discussions taking place on this forum. Some love it, some hate it, most others fall somewhere in between.

Rich

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Posted by eSperanto on Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:36 AM

My previous posting to this thread on Thursday was delayed, so it got burried and likely unnoticed. I have just started to operate with the BlueRail app. Disclaimer: I don't have experience using other hand-held controllers and the club/show layout I operate on uses fixed panels with dedicated controls (basic rheostat throttle knob and direction toggle).

The BlueRail app is really intuitive. After selecting your detected loco, you power it up with a by tapping a button. Then either slide up on the throttle, or tap above it to use the speed steps. There is a setting that governs the overall speed range of the throttle. You can pick from a few presets: switcher, freight, passenger, and full speed. I use the freight mode and it tops out at a scale 30mph with my engine. It provides excelent slow speed and smooth accelaration.

Slowing down is much the same. While there is no brake feature yet, you can slide the throttle down or tap below it to step it down. There is also an emergency stop button which will immediately halt your loco.

The reverse button can be selected when you are stopped to change your direction.

There is no delays as Bluetooth commands are received instantaneously. Lights and sounds are accesed with dedicated buttons.

Watch the videos on the BlueRail website or request what you want to see more of and I, and other users, can post up additional information.

Darby

 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:13 AM

Sir Madog

I asked how many are actually using BR as the control system for their model railroads and the question remained unanswered.

Apparently there aren´t any, other than the OP, leaving the discussion of the operating characteristic of this system in the foggy realms of theory.

 

The fact that no addtional posters have spoken up to say they are using/experimenting with Bluerail is a function of two things.

First the obvious, very few if any forum members beyond the the several who have already spoken up/started these threads have actually tried it.

Second, it speaks to a fact many on this forum do not want to admit or believe - forum participation, on this forum or any model train forum, only reflects a VERY small percentage of those in the hobby, likely as small as 1-2%.

So there could be lots of people out there giving Bluerail a try, or any of the other new throttles I have mentioned, they simply are not reading or responding to any of this. Likely, many would NEVER bother with any online forum.

I base my 1-2% simply on how many modelers I know personally, and how many of them spend time on forums - because I have discussed the topic of online forums with most of the modelers I know.

So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........

Sheldon

    

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    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 23, 2016 12:05 AM

I asked how many are actually using BR as the control system for their model railroads and the question remained unanswered.

Apparently there aren´t any, other than the OP, leaving the discussion of the operating characteristic of this system in the foggy realms of theory.

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • 158 posts
Posted by Old Fat Robert on Friday, July 22, 2016 11:45 PM

Now that we have covered all the theories and discussed all the ways that BR is or is not a worthy addition to the model railroading universe, can some one please talk about the actual operating characteristics of the system? I thought that was what this thread was based on. Thank you.

Old Fat Robert

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