Choops Doughless Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle. Yes, You don't need a service contract to use an older smart phone. You just need a wifi connection to download the apps. I know many people that give thier old phones to the kids to play games in the car and such. My current layout can handle up to 6 operators I dont want to have a contract for 6 phones if I can still use older models which are in boxes collection dust. Backwards compatibility is a real issue to me also. Hey I just hit 100 posts. Steve
Doughless Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
Yes, You don't need a service contract to use an older smart phone. You just need a wifi connection to download the apps. I know many people that give thier old phones to the kids to play games in the car and such. My current layout can handle up to 6 operators I dont want to have a contract for 6 phones if I can still use older models which are in boxes collection dust.
Backwards compatibility is a real issue to me also.
Hey I just hit 100 posts.
Steve
cuyama Bucksco The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them. Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators. Bucksco The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated. But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Bucksco The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them.
Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators.
Bucksco The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated.
But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Doughless Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket. I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far. Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far.
Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
richhotrain Speaking for myself, I have found both of these "blue" threads interesting in that they have prompted me to research the issues in greater detail regarding dead rail, Bluerail, and Bluetooth. The only issue with this thread is that it appears that few if any modelers are using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. Or, at least, few of the replies are from modelers using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. So, it is difficult to get a good perspective on Bluetooth technology for running trains. My current layout is fully wired and operational using an NCE DCC 5 amp system, so I have no compelling reason to adopt Bluetooth technology on my current layout. However, if I build a new layout, I would relish the opportunity to build it without wiring. If battery power can be improved to the point that dead rail is flawless, I am all for that. I don't own an iPhone or iPad, so when the day comes, I hope that a manufacturer will provide an NCE-like throttle as the interface. Rich
Speaking for myself, I have found both of these "blue" threads interesting in that they have prompted me to research the issues in greater detail regarding dead rail, Bluerail, and Bluetooth.
The only issue with this thread is that it appears that few if any modelers are using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. Or, at least, few of the replies are from modelers using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. So, it is difficult to get a good perspective on Bluetooth technology for running trains.
My current layout is fully wired and operational using an NCE DCC 5 amp system, so I have no compelling reason to adopt Bluetooth technology on my current layout. However, if I build a new layout, I would relish the opportunity to build it without wiring. If battery power can be improved to the point that dead rail is flawless, I am all for that. I don't own an iPhone or iPad, so when the day comes, I hope that a manufacturer will provide an NCE-like throttle as the interface.
Rich
And like Rich, I have a working system that serves my needs. In my case it is DC and it integrates advanced cab control with radio throttles, CTC and single button route turnout control.
But it is designed in a way that would allow the current wireless DC layout based throttles to be replaced with any sort of command control, including DCC, or bluetooth, or some other direct radio solution. I could literally just move eight pairs of wires to a different set of terminals and have a system with eight power districts of 13.8 constant filtered DC voltage for a system like this. All my other features would still work.
But I am only interested in doing that if a system (or improved DCC interface) comes along that really makes it easy and cost effective.
So as it stands, DCC costs too much, adds too much complexity, and has poor user interfaces.
But a direct radio system with the right features might be just the ticket - the benefits of individual control without the things I don't care for about DCC would be of interest.
When Crest gets their HO version of the Train Engineer Revolution farther along, I will take another look there as well. But so far, none of these systems are designed to handle large layouts, or large numbers of locos, and consisting, like DCC or a custom DC system like mine.
All of them, Crest, Bluerail, S-Cab, have limitations on numbers of locos, MU consisting, etc, which seems to me the first features I would have planned for.
It makes all these products only suited for someone with a small layout or who is only "dabling" with a few locos. That is not where I am at in the hobby........
As for all this talk about technology always changing and so forth, maybe some of you have simply accepted all this planned obsolesence, and for some things it is reality, and that is fine.
But except for those of you just "dabling" with a few trains, many in this hobby make a decade long commitment to construct a working layout "system".
"Obsolesence" is mostly in peoples heads if they own a working system they can maintain themselves - like my Advance Cab Control. It is only obsolete when I decide it no longer meets my needs.
The only other form of true obsolesence comes when I can no longer aquire service parts for a system that otherwise still meets my needs.
Some of you may like the constant change of "new stuff". Personally I find most of it wasteful and pointless - until something truely does something that has not been done and that ability truely provides a benefit.
I don't like spending money to constantly replace things that are, or should be, still working fine. But more importantly, on the 1000 sq ft, 8 scales miles of track, 8 trains running at once layout, I don't like spending time doing things over again - regardless of money.
So it may not seem like a big deal to some of you to replace three or four DCC decoders with Bluerail decoders in the locos you drag to the club or dable with on your 4x8, but before I put decoders/recievers in 135 locos, I'm going to be sure it will be a system that will last a couple decades at minimum.....
Sheldon
Alton Junction
passenger1955 Bluetooth has been around since the early 90's (about the same time as DCC). I have Bluetooth gear from the 90's that I just checked and am still able to pair with. The bluetooth Special Interest Group (Apple, Microsoft and the cellphone companies) have managed to maintain backwards compatibility for the last 20 years and hopefully will for the foreseeable future. Bluetooth 5 is scheduled to release at the end of this year, which is supposed to allow for double the speed and quadruple the range. If/when manufacturers use Bluetooth 5 chips, the potential would be there for 600 ft range (who really needs that?). Bluetooth 4 smart phones would only do the 150 ft range. I think the basic ability to connect to your Bluetooth trains and control parameters will continue to work on future smart devices (the same way you can still connect to old Bluetooth equipment). I don't think train control requires any advanced Bluetooth features that push the envelope.
Bluetooth has been around since the early 90's (about the same time as DCC). I have Bluetooth gear from the 90's that I just checked and am still able to pair with. The bluetooth Special Interest Group (Apple, Microsoft and the cellphone companies) have managed to maintain backwards compatibility for the last 20 years and hopefully will for the foreseeable future. Bluetooth 5 is scheduled to release at the end of this year, which is supposed to allow for double the speed and quadruple the range. If/when manufacturers use Bluetooth 5 chips, the potential would be there for 600 ft range (who really needs that?). Bluetooth 4 smart phones would only do the 150 ft range. I think the basic ability to connect to your Bluetooth trains and control parameters will continue to work on future smart devices (the same way you can still connect to old Bluetooth equipment). I don't think train control requires any advanced Bluetooth features that push the envelope.
Thank you for that response. Its good to know there currently seems to be backwards compatiblity spanning many years. Information like this is useful to me.
- Douglas
600 foot range would be great for G scale!
Bucksco I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
I agree with that sentence, except I would strike the part about potential.
And personally, I am always scared of spending more money or time than I have too, so I tend to ask a lot of otherwise obscure questions before embracing things.
Doughless carl425 Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative. I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories. I can use a brand new NCE wireless system to run my 1995 Atlas 2 function buzzing decoder. I don't know if that's because the basic DCC technology is compatible over time...or...if its because the NMRA standardized DCC systems, which make things compatible over time. Yes. The NMRA has no way of standardizing what Apple, Samsung, or bluetooth produce...or intentionally make obsolete....over time. Because those technologies are used in so many other things than model railroading, we as hobbyists are vunerable. Unlike our DCC systems which are purpose-built systems. Perhaps basic Bluetooth technology will always have a certain level of compatibility with decades old versions. I simply don't know enough about the technology to be confident that it will.
carl425 Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative. I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories.
Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories.
I can use a brand new NCE wireless system to run my 1995 Atlas 2 function buzzing decoder. I don't know if that's because the basic DCC technology is compatible over time...or...if its because the NMRA standardized DCC systems, which make things compatible over time.
Yes. The NMRA has no way of standardizing what Apple, Samsung, or bluetooth produce...or intentionally make obsolete....over time. Because those technologies are used in so many other things than model railroading, we as hobbyists are vunerable. Unlike our DCC systems which are purpose-built systems.
Perhaps basic Bluetooth technology will always have a certain level of compatibility with decades old versions. I simply don't know enough about the technology to be confident that it will.
If you are unsure of, or afraid of the technology you should stick with your old DCC system. I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
DoughlessI'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
DoughlessSteve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
Doughless Choops The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout. Steve Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle. And for others: I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
Choops The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout. Steve
The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout.
Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
And for others:
I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
Maybe not forever but for a long time into the future.
Folks, let's make something clear.
The purpose of the Forums is to discuss topics concerning model trains. "Discuss" means "to exchange ideas and opinions back and forth." Even if those opinions are in opposition to each other.
As long as people remain civil and on-topic, this thread will remain open.
Stop reporting posts as "abuse" just because they disagree with you.
[Addendum: Anyone attempting to get this thread shut down by deliberately going off-topic or goading others will be dealt with. Harshly.]
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Bucksco The Bachmann/Bluerail boards use a Bluetooth 4 chip so the device used needs to support Bluetooth 4. Just about all newer smart devices support this and the manufacturers most certainly won't remove the capability in the future. I have a 486 computer from the 1980's in the basement that is outdated and I understand that the technology has moved on so I don't use it anymore. I believe this to be a non-issue for those who understand and use smart devices regularly. As stated from the start of this thread let's talk about using Bluetooth and it's possibilities - not why it could never possibly work.
The Bachmann/Bluerail boards use a Bluetooth 4 chip so the device used needs to support Bluetooth 4. Just about all newer smart devices support this and the manufacturers most certainly won't remove the capability in the future. I have a 486 computer from the 1980's in the basement that is outdated and I understand that the technology has moved on so I don't use it anymore. I believe this to be a non-issue for those who understand and use smart devices regularly. As stated from the start of this thread let's talk about using Bluetooth and it's possibilities - not why it could never possibly work.
Come on Jack, lots of people have tried to be positive. But the truth is this product is not ready for prime time. I asked about the one most basic function I would need to use it on my layout - answer, "it does not do that yet" and "it does not count that high".
It cannot even compete with my 20 year old DC wireless radio throttles, let alone DCC.
I am very interested in any new throttle that is "direct radio", of any kind. A really good one, with a complete set of features is the only thing that would get me to install decoders/recievers in my 135 locos.
But this is a LONG way from being that system........like I said, they need to finish developing it, then try to sell it.
There is nothing permanent except change.
-Heraclitus
Sir Madog The nature of discussion is the exchange of views and opinions, certainly also opposing ones. By the way, this is the basis of any democracy. With your last statement, you clearly indicate that you intend only to collect statements which fit your rather singular view on the issue. This thread has become useless, like the one before.
The nature of discussion is the exchange of views and opinions, certainly also opposing ones. By the way, this is the basis of any democracy.
With your last statement, you clearly indicate that you intend only to collect statements which fit your rather singular view on the issue.
This thread has become useless, like the one before.
I believe it should be possible to have a positive discussion about a subject without people turning it into a "bashing" session. There is a difference between stating an opinion and going an a crusade to turn opinion against something- which is why the other thread became "useless"...
Sir Madog What would keep you from hanging on to your old iPhone just for the use as a throttle? But than you wouldn´t be able to "enjoy" any firmware, app or software upgrades, wouldn´t you?
What would keep you from hanging on to your old iPhone just for the use as a throttle? But than you wouldn´t be able to "enjoy" any firmware, app or software upgrades, wouldn´t you?
Nothing. But then it sits on the bench and becomes no different than a purpose-built MRR throttle, except that its shaped like an Iphone instead of something more ergonomic.
Pardon me for being reluctant to accept the fact, that we will have to live with devices that can do just about anything, but nothing really good.
Somebody upstream on this thread or the other one said that Bluerail won't work on Iphone 3.
It got me thinking about how the Blurail throttle is actually a device that is used for many more important things other than a train throttle, so when the phone technology moves on, the Blurail technology might have to keep pace eventhough model railroad hobbyists might not demand it.
It could be a situation where they have to keep buying upgrades just to maintain what they have because the throttle has moved so far out in front of them if they don't.
Who says you "need" to upgrade your smartphone constantly? I'm still using an iPhone 5S which works perfectly fine on the latest operating system. This "need" is a marketing thing and ingrained thought process, not any sort of technical requirement. In fact I just charged up my old iPhone 3G, the first one I got, and it still works fine. My second, a 4S, is still in daily use, I gave it to a friend to replaced a broken phone. Not counting the "Pro" series, there have been 3 new iPad models since I got mine, but mine works perfectly fine and I can;t really justify buying a new one.
BTW my old ones work great as DCC throttles. They newer ones support newer and faster wifi standards, but most access points handle both the old and new variations. This could be an issue 10 years down the road when today;s BT LE is BT LE v5 and it's not fully backward compatible with old devices, so the new phone might not work with the old Bluerail boards. But the old phone will still work, just like using wifi control, you don't need a cell contract to use BT, and if you ARE using your actual phone, using it as a train controller does not use any airtime minutes or data.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Since the throttle is a smartphone, people also use the BlueRail throttle for texting, conversations, posting photos, storing recipies,etc.
Smartphone companies have made it so that consumers need to upgrade their throttles...er...phones every so often.
So in a few years from now, when we are forced to buy the, say, Iphone 27, will the current Blurail Bluetooth technology be compatible? Or do y'all expect to have to download the prevailing supported software at the time, and keep doing so since the throttle...er..phone is used for so many important things in other aspects of life.
Heaven forbid the current bluerail boards won't have to be ripped out of your locos and updated to boards that are compatible with the 27th iteration of the throttle.
Just wondering if the built in obsolesence that comes with the smartphone phenomenon will force Bluerail users to keep up. And if so, does it impact the hardware that's installed in the locos now.
I thought I'd let things settle down here before posting. I too own a BlueRail board. It's no suprise that there are a lot of different interests and needs that people have that may not coripsond to certain products or technology. Luckily, there are now lot's of great options to make everyone happy
For me, BlueRail was the right product at the right time:
All these factors line up to make it the perfect product for me (selfishly speaking). Unselfishly, I see that this type of system will open the door for others who may not have gotten hooked back into the hobby due to one factor or another, or for those who are looking for something new to keep their interests flowing.
If you're interested (which I hope you are if you're reading this thread), check out the User Showcase on the BlueRail website: http://bluerailtrains.com/user-showcase/. You can read more about my, and other users adventures in BlueRail.
Darby
I purchased my BlueRail boards because I wanted something easy to experiment with for Dead Rail. For $85 I received my board and for about $100 more I have a bunch of batteries and a charger to play with. Even without batteries the board lets me run a single unit on a DCC layout using my phone.
Dead Rail is my goal and this is a cheap experiment compared to having to buy a transmitter, a decoder, a throttle and then the batteries from the established CVP, NCE or Digitrac. I've looked at the Stanton, Tam Valley and the one from England that escapes me. All are nice and with each having their own niche, just too expensive to experiment with.
Current operation allows for smooth running and a decent sound via the I-Phone speaker. BlueRrail has potential for some. If you have many DCC equiped locomotives this is not for you nor is RailPro, unless you have money to burn.
But don't knock Bluerail until you've tried it, its just another option out there.
Tom
Bucksco I think that instead of focusing on what it doesn't do we could take advantage of this opportunity to make positive suggestions that Bachmann/Bluerail can incorporate to make this a better way to run model trains.
I think that instead of focusing on what it doesn't do we could take advantage of this opportunity to make positive suggestions that Bachmann/Bluerail can incorporate to make this a better way to run model trains.
What would convince me to consider a switch from DCC would be a reliable dead rail system and a Bluetooth throttle, not an expensive iPhone or iPad which I don't own.