Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Bluetooth Control for Trains - a thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it

19696 views
193 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,890 posts
Posted by carl425 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:19 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.

Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"?

Social media is a big smartphone thing.  Forums are a form of social media.  Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing.  This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail.

Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant.  Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point.  If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:29 AM

zstripe
 
 
Bucksco

Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....

 

It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.

''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

I think what is missing here is a complete understanding and acceptance of the fact that this is a public forum. It is, or at least should be, open to all forms of on topic discussion.
 
Fortunately, the forum is tightly monitored so that name calling and flaming are not tolerated. But, as a pubic forum, it should not be controlled by trying to make a particular thread exclusive. In this case, there is an attempt to make the thread exclusive by limiting replies only to those members who actually use Bluetooth to run trains.
 
Under that condition, even Frank's reply would be nullified since he is a DC user and offers nothing in his reply in the way of Bluetooth experience in running trains. Since the purpose of a public forum is to make all threads inclusive, all civil opinions, pro or con, should be welcomed.
 
That said, I will reiterate my previously expressed opinion that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and learning from it. I now know a lot more about Bluetooth and dead rail than I did before. Even those replies that have been labeled as "negative" add to the discussion in a very critical way.
 
If you read those"negative" replies carefully, the points made against Bluetooth can be discerned by thinking people to form their own opinions. For example, when Sheldon lays out his case for why he will likely never use Bluetooth to run his trains and enumerates his reasons why he won't, that is not negative. Without ever trying Bluetooth, you can simply agree with him, or you can form the opposite opinion from what he objects to and conclude that Bluetooth/dead rail may be right for you.
 
My point is, stop replying just to say that the thread is negative when it is not and use your brain to form your own opinion. That is what I am doing. I am seriously considering building my Dream Layout, and thanks to this thread and the other one, I am giving some consideration to Bluetooth and dead rail. You all should do the same instead of playing forum cop.
 
Rich 

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:32 AM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.

 

Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"?

Social media is a big smartphone thing.  Forums are a form of social media.  Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing.  This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail.

Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant.  Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point.  If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?

 

Carl, I don't disgree with you first point, but I do disagree with any idea that suggests a large percentage, or even a significant percentage of ALL model railroaders spend much time on these forums.

So, of the people who do spend time on forums, sure, there is a higher likelyhood they would be exposed to Bluerail and be inclined to give it a try.

But here is a twist, I participate in this forum, and one other forum for a different hobby. I'm not on facebook or any other social media, I don't own a smart phone, I don't belong to any other "online" groups of a social or hobby nature. But I do lots of online research and shopping, for work and play. What does that say about me? I knew about Bluerail pretty early on, I did not need this forum to find it.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Heart of Georgia
  • 5,406 posts
Posted by Doughless on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:34 AM

Well said Rich.

I too am interested in any kind of direct control for my trains, although admittedly, I don't care if it would use a smartphone..........or future development of telepathic skills within my brain.  When that happens, I certainly won't imply that those still using Iphone1,056 are dinosaurs who are scared of embracing change.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,890 posts
Posted by carl425 on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:44 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What does that say about me?

It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it) Smile

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:49 AM

carl425

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
What does that say about me?

 

It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it) Smile

 

Yes, it is a shortcoming that results from having been taught to think critically for myself..........

Sheldon 

    

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: Chi-Town
  • 7,712 posts
Posted by zstripe on Saturday, July 23, 2016 6:00 PM

Rich,

I believe Your response about Me using DC to control My trains is not justified/irrelevant..Your assuming I have no knowledge of Bluetooth....which contrary to Your assumption I have been delving into it for quite a few years now. The RC trucks/cars that I build. including the camera equipped quad copter that I am still messing with is Bluetooth controlled. Seeing as how this thread is about Bluetooth for train use, I did not think it necessary to tell of use in RC equipment, which has been out a lot longer. There are other forums that I belong to that discuss RC Apps. Trains Are not My only hobby.

I also will stay a DC user....Thank You!

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

This RC Truck kit by Tamiya is Bluetooth controlled:

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:43 AM

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:31 AM

richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail.

But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff.

Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Bucks County, PA
  • 428 posts
Posted by Bucksco on Sunday, July 24, 2016 11:00 AM

richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on wheter or not you could isolate the motor. Since american Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

Jack
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:45 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
richhotrain

I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.

Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.

My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?

I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.

If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?

Any thoughts?

Rich

 

 

 

The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail.

But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff.

Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale.

Sheldon

 

Thanks, Sheldon. I Googled 'direct radio and dead rail' and came up with some interesting web sites.  

Two technologies are required to free model railroading from its dependence on track power and communication -- radio to communicate with locomotives and batteries to provide an on-board power supply.

This is really interesting stuff, especially for S-scale American Flyer vintage locomotives.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:48 PM

Bucksco

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

 

If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, July 24, 2016 1:55 PM

richhotrain

 

 
Bucksco

I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.

 

 

 

If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame?

 

Rich

 

Only if you wanted to use thetrack to charge batteries.

Sheldon

    

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,255 posts
Posted by tstage on Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:50 PM

So that would answer my prior question (posted waaaaaay back when on the other thread and was never answered) about how conveniently the batteries would be recharged.  Thanks, Sheldon.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: west coast
  • 7,670 posts
Posted by rrebell on Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:05 PM

Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,255 posts
Posted by tstage on Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:51 PM

Okay, then I'll ask the question again:

  1. How will the batteries be charged up for deadrail in HO-scale and smaller?
  2. Is this expected to be convenient?
  3. Will it require some sort of charging station?
  4. If not, how will you access the batteries?  Via a connector of some kind?
  5. How expensive are the batteries expected to be? (You'll need one for each locomotive)

And I'm being both positive and negative here.  You can't talk about batteries without being both. Wink  Seriously, I am interested in learning about the advantages.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Sunday, July 24, 2016 9:09 PM

 Usually with a plug and socket, like some small RC aircraft. Unplug the battery from the receiver and plug it in to the charger.

 The NWSL Stanton system lists a charger circuit, and I beleive Tam Valley's DRS has that as an option as well, which allows charging from the rails. Will it fit in HO? It's certainly possibly, given that Li-ion battery packs have (or should have) some regualion corcuitry in them to begin with. The charger circuit is a single 8 pin surface mount IC the size of a speck plus a few discrete components to adjust the settings. No reason this can't fit in HO and larger. Like I mentioned before, with such a system you just power the 'easy' parts of the track, and fully insulate 'problem' areas like reverse loops and don't worry about frog power. Engine terminal parking tracks are an ideal place to have powered for recharging. Theoretically you could op til you drop without the batteries going dead.

                           --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,255 posts
Posted by tstage on Sunday, July 24, 2016 9:16 PM

Thanks, Randy.  That's quite helpful.  And I like the idea of having it at the terminal tracks.  That makes an op session more realistic.

Along those line I would expect - like a tablet or laptop - that battery power levels could be easily monitored with a smart phone or BT throttle...

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    October 2015
  • 188 posts
Posted by passenger1955 on Sunday, July 24, 2016 11:29 PM

rrebell

Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Here is a page on the BlueRail site showing an implementation of an S scale loco with a BlueRail board that operates Dead Rail and charges through the rails:

http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/11/user-showcase-darby-marriott/


The page contains a diagram showing how to wire it up. Pretty straight forward.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, July 25, 2016 4:54 AM

tstage

So that would answer my prior question (posted waaaaaay back when on the other thread and was never answered) about how conveniently the batteries would be recharged.  Thanks, Sheldon.

Tom

 

Yeah, that answers the question for me too. I had been wondering why you even need a power source (AC, DC, DCC) if one of the advantages of dead rail is a wire free battery operation.

Duh, you need something to charge the batteries. Maybe what is needed is a charging station for the locomotives. Otherwise, you will be needing to constantly open up the locomotive to remove the battery for charging.

Did I get that right?

Rich

Alton Junction

Moderator
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Northeast OH
  • 17,255 posts
Posted by tstage on Monday, July 25, 2016 5:27 AM

Correct.  Having to remove the shell each time you recharged the batteries would not be particularly appealing to me.  I do like the powered terminal track idea posed by Randy.  Refueling...just like the prototype. Stick out tongue

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, July 25, 2016 5:36 AM

tstage

Correct.  Having to remove the shell each time you recharged the batteries would not be particularly appealing to me.  I do like the powered terminal track idea posed by Randy.  Refueling...just like the prototype. Stick out tongue

Tom

 

I agree, but that somewhat compromises the overall appeal of dead rail. It would be so nice to have a totally wire free layout. But, I guess that the terminal track idea is tantamount to a charging station, something that seems essential when relying on battery power.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Heart of Georgia
  • 5,406 posts
Posted by Doughless on Monday, July 25, 2016 8:57 AM

If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue?  The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: west coast
  • 7,670 posts
Posted by rrebell on Monday, July 25, 2016 9:13 AM

passenger1955

 

 
rrebell

Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

 

Here is a page on the BlueRail site showing an implementation of an S scale loco with a BlueRail board that operates Dead Rail and charges through the rails:

http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/11/user-showcase-darby-marriott/


The page contains a diagram showing how to wire it up. Pretty straight forward.

 

Guess the BlueRail guys were just covering [themselves] in there responce, glad to know the additional circitry is not as much as I was led to beleive but if you think it through, this all makes sense.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern CA Bay Area
  • 4,387 posts
Posted by cuyama on Monday, July 25, 2016 11:36 AM

Doughless
If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue?  The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.

Reverse loops (and frogs) can be unpowered in dead rail -- if the rest of the layout is powered, the batteries will have plenty of opportunity to recharge.

It’s a shame that the dead rail suppliers generally aren't addressing this to date, it makes much more sense than disassembling the loco.

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Heart of Georgia
  • 5,406 posts
Posted by Doughless on Monday, July 25, 2016 12:04 PM

cuyama
 
Doughless
If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue?  The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.

 

Reverse loops (and frogs) can be unpowered in dead rail -- if the rest of the layout is powered, the batteries will have plenty of opportunity to recharge.

It’s a shame that the dead rail suppliers generally aren't addressing this to date, it makes much more sense than disassembling the loco.

 

Not the reverse loop per se, I mean the loco will be heading in the opposite direction on the track heading/exiting the reverse loop.  No, it won't cause a short in the traditional sense, but since the wheels will now be picking up the current from the opposite sides, won't that impact the battery? You can't charge a battery when the negative side is receiving positive current can you?

It seems to me you still have to dpdt or autoreverse the track in order to keep charging a battery over an entire layout if it has reverse loops, or to prevent ruining a battery.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern CA Bay Area
  • 4,387 posts
Posted by cuyama on Monday, July 25, 2016 12:36 PM

Doughless
No, it won't cause a short in the traditional sense, but since the wheels will now be picking up the current from the opposite sides, won't that impact the battery? You can't charge a battery when the negative side is receiving positive current can you?

Simple on-board circuitry can do the conversions for DC or AC. DCC on the rails would be a simple and obvious choice. (Only the DCC waveform for power, you obviously wouldn't need the DCC commands if all the locos had batteries and direct radio such as Bluetooth, WiFi, or 900 MHz.)

Edit: Bluerail's and others' boards already contain the logic to internally switch DC polarity (although not in the right location for recharging) since they allow engines to run in forward and reverse no matter what the DC polarity is beneath them.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 11 posts
Posted by Pete Steinmetz on Monday, July 25, 2016 12:55 PM

If you charge through the rails, it is no longer Dead Rail.  There is no need to take a shell off a loco.

I do Dead Rail Installs and simply put a charging jack that is hidden but easily accessable. Plug in the charger and hit start.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 11 posts
Posted by Pete Steinmetz on Monday, July 25, 2016 12:57 PM

If you use the entire layout to charge the battery, why do you need a battery? Battery power is designed to replace track power

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 11 posts
Posted by Pete Steinmetz on Monday, July 25, 2016 1:00 PM

There are two schools of thought on charging batteries.  One is through the rail, but this complicates things.  The other is to have a removable battery.  If you do that, you can use a much smaller battery and simply switch it out when the charge runs down.  The other is to put a charging jack somewhere on the loco.  Just plug in to charge.

Personally, I don't support charging through the rails.

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!