ATLANTIC CENTRALusing the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.
Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"?
Social media is a big smartphone thing. Forums are a form of social media. Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing. This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail.
Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant. Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point. If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
zstripe Bucksco Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad.... It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title. ''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen. Take Care! Frank
Bucksco Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....
Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....
It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.
''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.
Take Care!
Frank
Alton Junction
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things. Why do you ignore the main point of my post and choose instead to argue with a closing "by the way"? Social media is a big smartphone thing. Forums are a form of social media. Running trains with Bluetooth is also a smartphone thing. This is why I think it is logical to assume that the percentage of forum users using Bluerail is likely higher than the percentage of non-forum users using Bluerail. Besides, when it supports your point, you say that the users of this forum represent too small a sample to be statistically significant. Then you use "the modellers you know personally", which is a far smaller sample, to support your next point. If several thousand is too small a sample, how can several dozen be significant?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.
Carl, I don't disgree with you first point, but I do disagree with any idea that suggests a large percentage, or even a significant percentage of ALL model railroaders spend much time on these forums.
So, of the people who do spend time on forums, sure, there is a higher likelyhood they would be exposed to Bluerail and be inclined to give it a try.
But here is a twist, I participate in this forum, and one other forum for a different hobby. I'm not on facebook or any other social media, I don't own a smart phone, I don't belong to any other "online" groups of a social or hobby nature. But I do lots of online research and shopping, for work and play. What does that say about me? I knew about Bluerail pretty early on, I did not need this forum to find it.
Sheldon
Well said Rich.
I too am interested in any kind of direct control for my trains, although admittedly, I don't care if it would use a smartphone..........or future development of telepathic skills within my brain. When that happens, I certainly won't imply that those still using Iphone1,056 are dinosaurs who are scared of embracing change.
- Douglas
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat does that say about me?
It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it)
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL What does that say about me? It has long been established that you are what statisticians refer to as an outlier. (and proud of it)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What does that say about me?
Yes, it is a shortcoming that results from having been taught to think critically for myself..........
Rich,
I believe Your response about Me using DC to control My trains is not justified/irrelevant..Your assuming I have no knowledge of Bluetooth....which contrary to Your assumption I have been delving into it for quite a few years now. The RC trucks/cars that I build. including the camera equipped quad copter that I am still messing with is Bluetooth controlled. Seeing as how this thread is about Bluetooth for train use, I did not think it necessary to tell of use in RC equipment, which has been out a lot longer. There are other forums that I belong to that discuss RC Apps. Trains Are not My only hobby.
I also will stay a DC user....Thank You!
This RC Truck kit by Tamiya is Bluetooth controlled:
I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart.
Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple.
My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout?
I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology.
If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system?
Any thoughts?
Rich
richhotrain I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart. Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple. My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout? I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology. If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system? Any thoughts? Rich
The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail.
But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff.
Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale.
I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on wheter or not you could isolate the motor. Since american Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I found myself re-reading this entire thread this morning, and I believe that Jack has done a good job of responding to my ten questions about Bluetooth. I am not at all likely to convert to Bluetooth on my current HO scale layout, but it got me to thinking about another phase of the model railroading hobby near and dear to my heart. Just before I started into HO scale back in January 2004, I pulled my American Flyer trains out of storage after a 45 year hiatus. I couldn't really get the locomotives working properly, so I researched how to rehab them and wound up replaces the motors and reverse units with modern day electronic components. I run them under AC track power, using my original transformer. The track wiring is pretty simple. My question is, would be Bluetooth / dead rail be feasible for such a layout? I gotta say, if I could run my American Flyer trains, using a dead rail system and an iPhone interface, I would be delighted. More importantly, I might have a better chance to pass these trains onto one of my grandsons who might be more inclined to inherit them and run them with modern technology as opposed to 1940's technology. If this technology is not compatible with AC power, could I convert these locos to DC power and then apply the Bluetooth system? Any thoughts? Rich The short answer is yes. If I was in a larger scale, I would definately be using some sort of direct radio like Bluerail or Crest, and would likely try dead rail. But right now it all has to do with space inside the locos - HO is still pretty small for that stuff. Direct radio and dead rail rule in large scale. Sheldon
Two technologies are required to free model railroading from its dependence on track power and communication -- radio to communicate with locomotives and batteries to provide an on-board power supply.
This is really interesting stuff, especially for S-scale American Flyer vintage locomotives.
Bucksco I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.
I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales.
richhotrain Bucksco I think using a Bluerail board in an American Flyer loco would depend on whether or not you could isolate the motor. Since American Flyer is 2 rail I would assume you could go DC. The other issue might be amperage draw - the boards are designed for HO so you may have to wait until they release a board designed for larger scales. If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame? Rich
If you go the dead rail route and use batteries, would it matter that the open frame motor is not isolated from the frame?
Only if you wanted to use thetrack to charge batteries.
So that would answer my prior question (posted waaaaaay back when on the other thread and was never answered) about how conveniently the batteries would be recharged. Thanks, Sheldon.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Okay, then I'll ask the question again:
And I'm being both positive and negative here. You can't talk about batteries without being both. Seriously, I am interested in learning about the advantages.
Usually with a plug and socket, like some small RC aircraft. Unplug the battery from the receiver and plug it in to the charger.
The NWSL Stanton system lists a charger circuit, and I beleive Tam Valley's DRS has that as an option as well, which allows charging from the rails. Will it fit in HO? It's certainly possibly, given that Li-ion battery packs have (or should have) some regualion corcuitry in them to begin with. The charger circuit is a single 8 pin surface mount IC the size of a speck plus a few discrete components to adjust the settings. No reason this can't fit in HO and larger. Like I mentioned before, with such a system you just power the 'easy' parts of the track, and fully insulate 'problem' areas like reverse loops and don't worry about frog power. Engine terminal parking tracks are an ideal place to have powered for recharging. Theoretically you could op til you drop without the batteries going dead.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks, Randy. That's quite helpful. And I like the idea of having it at the terminal tracks. That makes an op session more realistic.
Along those line I would expect - like a tablet or laptop - that battery power levels could be easily monitored with a smart phone or BT throttle...
rrebell Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Here is a page on the BlueRail site showing an implementation of an S scale loco with a BlueRail board that operates Dead Rail and charges through the rails:
http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/11/user-showcase-darby-marriott/
The page contains a diagram showing how to wire it up. Pretty straight forward.
tstage So that would answer my prior question (posted waaaaaay back when on the other thread and was never answered) about how conveniently the batteries would be recharged. Thanks, Sheldon. Tom
Duh, you need something to charge the batteries. Maybe what is needed is a charging station for the locomotives. Otherwise, you will be needing to constantly open up the locomotive to remove the battery for charging.
Did I get that right?
Correct. Having to remove the shell each time you recharged the batteries would not be particularly appealing to me. I do like the powered terminal track idea posed by Randy. Refueling...just like the prototype.
tstage Correct. Having to remove the shell each time you recharged the batteries would not be particularly appealing to me. I do like the powered terminal track idea posed by Randy. Refueling...just like the prototype. Tom
If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue? The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.
passenger1955 rrebell Bluerail is not compatable with on board battery charging though the rails and it is not high on their list it seems. It could be done but would take even more space than the dead rail setup takes now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon. Here is a page on the BlueRail site showing an implementation of an S scale loco with a BlueRail board that operates Dead Rail and charges through the rails: http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/11/user-showcase-darby-marriott/ The page contains a diagram showing how to wire it up. Pretty straight forward.
DoughlessIf you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue? The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.
Reverse loops (and frogs) can be unpowered in dead rail -- if the rest of the layout is powered, the batteries will have plenty of opportunity to recharge.
It’s a shame that the dead rail suppliers generally aren't addressing this to date, it makes much more sense than disassembling the loco.
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cuyama Doughless If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue? The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction. Reverse loops (and frogs) can be unpowered in dead rail -- if the rest of the layout is powered, the batteries will have plenty of opportunity to recharge. It’s a shame that the dead rail suppliers generally aren't addressing this to date, it makes much more sense than disassembling the loco.
Doughless If you used the entire layout for charging the battery, wouldn't reversing loops still pose a polarity issue? The train would be traversing the layout in the opposite direction.
Not the reverse loop per se, I mean the loco will be heading in the opposite direction on the track heading/exiting the reverse loop. No, it won't cause a short in the traditional sense, but since the wheels will now be picking up the current from the opposite sides, won't that impact the battery? You can't charge a battery when the negative side is receiving positive current can you?
It seems to me you still have to dpdt or autoreverse the track in order to keep charging a battery over an entire layout if it has reverse loops, or to prevent ruining a battery.
DoughlessNo, it won't cause a short in the traditional sense, but since the wheels will now be picking up the current from the opposite sides, won't that impact the battery? You can't charge a battery when the negative side is receiving positive current can you?
Simple on-board circuitry can do the conversions for DC or AC. DCC on the rails would be a simple and obvious choice. (Only the DCC waveform for power, you obviously wouldn't need the DCC commands if all the locos had batteries and direct radio such as Bluetooth, WiFi, or 900 MHz.)
Edit: Bluerail's and others' boards already contain the logic to internally switch DC polarity (although not in the right location for recharging) since they allow engines to run in forward and reverse no matter what the DC polarity is beneath them.
If you charge through the rails, it is no longer Dead Rail. There is no need to take a shell off a loco.
I do Dead Rail Installs and simply put a charging jack that is hidden but easily accessable. Plug in the charger and hit start.
If you use the entire layout to charge the battery, why do you need a battery? Battery power is designed to replace track power
There are two schools of thought on charging batteries. One is through the rail, but this complicates things. The other is to have a removable battery. If you do that, you can use a much smaller battery and simply switch it out when the charge runs down. The other is to put a charging jack somewhere on the loco. Just plug in to charge.
Personally, I don't support charging through the rails.