richhotrain Jack, thanks for documenting what you like about this app. Permit me to respond to each point you made along with some questions since I am otherwise unfamiliar with operating trains using Bluetooth. I intend none of my comments as negative. 5. The fact that locos on the track show up on a roster is great. I suppose that is superior to systems such as my NCE throttle which only shows 6 locos or consists. 6. I guess that the virtual keyboard is useful in naming locos, assuming that someone wishes to do that. 7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE ssytem, setting CVs is fairly easy to do. Rich
Jack, thanks for documenting what you like about this app. Permit me to respond to each point you made along with some questions since I am otherwise unfamiliar with operating trains using Bluetooth. I intend none of my comments as negative.
5. The fact that locos on the track show up on a roster is great. I suppose that is superior to systems such as my NCE throttle which only shows 6 locos or consists.
6. I guess that the virtual keyboard is useful in naming locos, assuming that someone wishes to do that.
7. I am interested in the use of sliders as an alternative to manipulating CVs. I would like to learn more about that because, at least on the NCE ssytem, setting CVs is fairly easy to do.
Rich
Since Jack did not address items 5-6-7, here is my take on this.
5 - What appears on the Bluerail screen can't be compare to what is shown on the NCE throttle. They are two different animals. On the Bluerail app the list that appears is there to select the loco. We only have to touch the icon to select the loco of our choice and then hit the connect icon. On my NCE throttle what appears is the recall stack. For a loco to appear in that list one must first select the loco in pressing the select loco button, then punch the decoder address and finally hit enter to confirm.
6- I find it usefull as i can identify more precisely the loco. For example my P2K E6 is labelled B&O E6.
7- Honestly I don't know how the internal of these boards work. I kind of think of it as what JMRI is doing.
Hope this help and rest assure I will not ditch neither my Digitrax or NCE systems.
Jack W.
jalajoie Yes you can either DC or DCC.
Yes you can either DC or DCC.
- Douglas
You can wire a Bluetooth board so that you can use the app to run a DC layout -
http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/
You can update your older DCC locos with a bluetooth board
Bucksco You can wire a Bluetooth board so that you can use the app to run a DC layout - http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/ You can update your older DCC locos with a bluetooth board
Running silent DCC ready locomotives with Bluesystem seems pretty straightforward, as far as converting a locomotive.
So to run factory equipped DCC/Sound locos, I would need to replace the factory sound decoder with a Bluesystem sound decoder, correct? (not sure they offer it yet).
In order to run the locomotive with the App - yes it needs to have a Bluetooth board installed.
Watching. Interested. That I don't have to ditch all my dcc--that dcc and bluerail can coexist--has my ears pricked up. There will be some missing features early on, I get that. New tech works like that; things evolve over time.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Okay. I'm excited about this. Why? Dead rail operation. No wiring. This works for me; every MR project I take on stalls at the wiring stage. I don't like it, I'm not good at it, and many shiny objects inevitably present themselves on the way to wiring something in the Growlery. I know, I know, there'll be some to do in the locomotives, but screwing with locos is fun, wiring under benchwork is not.
$167 USD per loco has me hesitating though. Anyone tried Bluerail's dead rail kit?
jalajoieOn the Bluerail app the list that appears is there to select the loco. We only have to touch the icon to select the loco of our choice and then hit the connect icon.
There is a difference, based on the way Bluetooth pairing works and the way NCE works. With NCE, one can always select a loco (using the loco number, typically), no matter if it was previously selected by another throttle. With Bluetooth in general and Bluerail in particular, if another device has paired with that loco already, you won't see it in the Bluerail app and can't choose it until the other smartphone/tablet has unpaired (Edit: At least, as I understand from the Bluerail manual).
These and other pairing issues are not important for those running one or two locos with one or a couple of smartphone throttles. If one considers the needs of larger layouts and multiple operators, pairing challenges become greater. It's not clear to date how Bluerail will manage these. This is potentially exacerbated by the apparent plan to put a separate logical Bluetooth device in the loco to handle on-board sound, which would require extra steps in pairing/unpairing.
The capability for anyone who has downloaded the free Bluerail app to pick up any unpaired loco on a layout may be a concern in public display layouts, where any bystander could take control of an engine. Or pair with it and keep the layout operators from taking control until they did a power cycle. Or a layout operator could simply inadvertently take over an engine on a nearby layout.
Most wireless DCC providers have schemes of network identification and security that lock out unauthorized throttles. Even if a visitor to a train show did show up with a DCC throttle in his pocket, he couldn’t access a wireless layout.
Maybe Bluerail has a plan to address this, or maybe they consider it such a rare possibility that it’s not worth guarding against. But since the app is freely available, it’s something that I have wondered about.
jalajoieI find it usefull as i can identify more precisely the loco. For example my P2K E6 is labelled B&O E6.
What if you had more than one E6? In DCC the engine number is a handy way to distinguish units. Of course, the same could be done in Bluerail -- and likely will be if it is deployed on layouts with larger numbers of engines and operators.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
DoughlessCan I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
The company and product name is Bluerail, as it happens.
As others have noted, one can use DC or DCC to power the rails, which is the right choice on Bluerail’s part. What is not often mentioned is that there are still reverse-loop issues when using DC, so you would still need toggle switches (or something similar) to manage any reversing connections with DC-rail-powered Bluerail. DCC-rail-powered Bluerail should be able to use DCC auto-reversers (I believe), although I have not seen that spelled-out in the Bluerail documentation.
The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them. The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated. I think it is important to realize that as the user base grows and more "wants" from users are forwarded to the software developers the app will become more robust and in turn do more of what we all want. The ability for the app to evolve is one of it's major strengths.
BuckscoThe public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them.
Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators.
BuckscoThe beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated.
But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Glass half empty/half full - I tend to see the glass as half full while you look at it as half empty. I believe if there are problems they can and will be worked out. better to be optomistic and look forward to the possibilities...
Sir Madog Before this gets any deeper into what we already had "over there" in the other thread, let´s hear who is actually using a bluetooth device to control his/her trains. Once we have established a feel for how many folks are into this, I think it is much easier to stay on track in this discussion.
Before this gets any deeper into what we already had "over there" in the other thread, let´s hear who is actually using a bluetooth device to control his/her trains.
Once we have established a feel for how many folks are into this, I think it is much easier to stay on track in this discussion.
Alton Junction
You don't sound negative to me, Rich. Just honest.
For my part, I smell the potential to eliminate my most loathed aspect of this hobby - wiring - and a bit of money sounds like a reasonable trade. But that's just it; $167 per loco is more than just a bit. Looking at dozens of future locos, that's a big chunk. Do I leap or not? I'd like to, but money is not a small barrier; my family needs to eat.
I guess that depends on what you consider a "True Bluetooth System". At the moment Bluetooth controlled locomotives and the smart device app to run them is what is available. The fact that Bachmann/Bluerail are bringing it into the mainstream shows that there is confidence that they can grow it into a full fledged "System". You don't need another command system to run it just 16 volts into the track. It really isn't for everyone but to those who are interested it is a really cool piece of forward thinking technology.
I think that instead of focusing on what it doesn't do we could take advantage of this opportunity to make positive suggestions that Bachmann/Bluerail can incorporate to make this a better way to run model trains.
Bucksco I think that instead of focusing on what it doesn't do we could take advantage of this opportunity to make positive suggestions that Bachmann/Bluerail can incorporate to make this a better way to run model trains.
What would convince me to consider a switch from DCC would be a reliable dead rail system and a Bluetooth throttle, not an expensive iPhone or iPad which I don't own.
I purchased my BlueRail boards because I wanted something easy to experiment with for Dead Rail. For $85 I received my board and for about $100 more I have a bunch of batteries and a charger to play with. Even without batteries the board lets me run a single unit on a DCC layout using my phone.
Dead Rail is my goal and this is a cheap experiment compared to having to buy a transmitter, a decoder, a throttle and then the batteries from the established CVP, NCE or Digitrac. I've looked at the Stanton, Tam Valley and the one from England that escapes me. All are nice and with each having their own niche, just too expensive to experiment with.
Current operation allows for smooth running and a decent sound via the I-Phone speaker. BlueRrail has potential for some. If you have many DCC equiped locomotives this is not for you nor is RailPro, unless you have money to burn.
But don't knock Bluerail until you've tried it, its just another option out there.
Tom
I thought I'd let things settle down here before posting. I too own a BlueRail board. It's no suprise that there are a lot of different interests and needs that people have that may not coripsond to certain products or technology. Luckily, there are now lot's of great options to make everyone happy
For me, BlueRail was the right product at the right time:
All these factors line up to make it the perfect product for me (selfishly speaking). Unselfishly, I see that this type of system will open the door for others who may not have gotten hooked back into the hobby due to one factor or another, or for those who are looking for something new to keep their interests flowing.
If you're interested (which I hope you are if you're reading this thread), check out the User Showcase on the BlueRail website: http://bluerailtrains.com/user-showcase/. You can read more about my, and other users adventures in BlueRail.
Darby
Since the throttle is a smartphone, people also use the BlueRail throttle for texting, conversations, posting photos, storing recipies,etc.
Smartphone companies have made it so that consumers need to upgrade their throttles...er...phones every so often.
So in a few years from now, when we are forced to buy the, say, Iphone 27, will the current Blurail Bluetooth technology be compatible? Or do y'all expect to have to download the prevailing supported software at the time, and keep doing so since the throttle...er..phone is used for so many important things in other aspects of life.
Heaven forbid the current bluerail boards won't have to be ripped out of your locos and updated to boards that are compatible with the 27th iteration of the throttle.
Just wondering if the built in obsolesence that comes with the smartphone phenomenon will force Bluerail users to keep up. And if so, does it impact the hardware that's installed in the locos now.
Who says you "need" to upgrade your smartphone constantly? I'm still using an iPhone 5S which works perfectly fine on the latest operating system. This "need" is a marketing thing and ingrained thought process, not any sort of technical requirement. In fact I just charged up my old iPhone 3G, the first one I got, and it still works fine. My second, a 4S, is still in daily use, I gave it to a friend to replaced a broken phone. Not counting the "Pro" series, there have been 3 new iPad models since I got mine, but mine works perfectly fine and I can;t really justify buying a new one.
BTW my old ones work great as DCC throttles. They newer ones support newer and faster wifi standards, but most access points handle both the old and new variations. This could be an issue 10 years down the road when today;s BT LE is BT LE v5 and it's not fully backward compatible with old devices, so the new phone might not work with the old Bluerail boards. But the old phone will still work, just like using wifi control, you don't need a cell contract to use BT, and if you ARE using your actual phone, using it as a train controller does not use any airtime minutes or data.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Somebody upstream on this thread or the other one said that Bluerail won't work on Iphone 3.
It got me thinking about how the Blurail throttle is actually a device that is used for many more important things other than a train throttle, so when the phone technology moves on, the Blurail technology might have to keep pace eventhough model railroad hobbyists might not demand it.
It could be a situation where they have to keep buying upgrades just to maintain what they have because the throttle has moved so far out in front of them if they don't.
What would keep you from hanging on to your old iPhone just for the use as a throttle? But than you wouldn´t be able to "enjoy" any firmware, app or software upgrades, wouldn´t you?
Pardon me for being reluctant to accept the fact, that we will have to live with devices that can do just about anything, but nothing really good.
Sir Madog What would keep you from hanging on to your old iPhone just for the use as a throttle? But than you wouldn´t be able to "enjoy" any firmware, app or software upgrades, wouldn´t you?
Nothing. But then it sits on the bench and becomes no different than a purpose-built MRR throttle, except that its shaped like an Iphone instead of something more ergonomic.
The Bachmann/Bluerail boards use a Bluetooth 4 chip so the device used needs to support Bluetooth 4. Just about all newer smart devices support this and the manufacturers most certainly won't remove the capability in the future. I have a 486 computer from the 1980's in the basement that is outdated and I understand that the technology has moved on so I don't use it anymore. I believe this to be a non-issue for those who understand and use smart devices regularly. As stated from the start of this thread let's talk about using Bluetooth and it's possibilities - not why it could never possibly work.
The nature of discussion is the exchange of views and opinions, certainly also opposing ones. By the way, this is the basis of any democracy.
With your last statement, you clearly indicate that you intend only to collect statements which fit your rather singular view on the issue.
This thread has become useless, like the one before.
The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout.
Steve
Sir Madog The nature of discussion is the exchange of views and opinions, certainly also opposing ones. By the way, this is the basis of any democracy. With your last statement, you clearly indicate that you intend only to collect statements which fit your rather singular view on the issue. This thread has become useless, like the one before.
I believe it should be possible to have a positive discussion about a subject without people turning it into a "bashing" session. There is a difference between stating an opinion and going an a crusade to turn opinion against something- which is why the other thread became "useless"...
Choops The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout. Steve
There is nothing permanent except change.
-Heraclitus
Bucksco The Bachmann/Bluerail boards use a Bluetooth 4 chip so the device used needs to support Bluetooth 4. Just about all newer smart devices support this and the manufacturers most certainly won't remove the capability in the future. I have a 486 computer from the 1980's in the basement that is outdated and I understand that the technology has moved on so I don't use it anymore. I believe this to be a non-issue for those who understand and use smart devices regularly. As stated from the start of this thread let's talk about using Bluetooth and it's possibilities - not why it could never possibly work.
Come on Jack, lots of people have tried to be positive. But the truth is this product is not ready for prime time. I asked about the one most basic function I would need to use it on my layout - answer, "it does not do that yet" and "it does not count that high".
It cannot even compete with my 20 year old DC wireless radio throttles, let alone DCC.
I am very interested in any new throttle that is "direct radio", of any kind. A really good one, with a complete set of features is the only thing that would get me to install decoders/recievers in my 135 locos.
But this is a LONG way from being that system........like I said, they need to finish developing it, then try to sell it.
Sheldon
Folks, let's make something clear.
The purpose of the Forums is to discuss topics concerning model trains. "Discuss" means "to exchange ideas and opinions back and forth." Even if those opinions are in opposition to each other.
As long as people remain civil and on-topic, this thread will remain open.
Stop reporting posts as "abuse" just because they disagree with you.
[Addendum: Anyone attempting to get this thread shut down by deliberately going off-topic or goading others will be dealt with. Harshly.]
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com