Choops The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout. Steve
The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout.
Steve
Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
And for others:
I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
- Douglas
Doughless Choops The constant updating of the bluetooth system is my fear also. I currently have an Iphone 3 which is not compatible. However if the system stays with the current blutooth 4 used phones will get cheaper and cheaper to buy. And if you upgrade your phone every few years your older phone will still work and be a free throttle for the layout. Steve Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle. And for others: I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
Maybe not forever but for a long time into the future.
DoughlessSteve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
Yes, You don't need a service contract to use an older smart phone. You just need a wifi connection to download the apps. I know many people that give thier old phones to the kids to play games in the car and such. My current layout can handle up to 6 operators I dont want to have a contract for 6 phones if I can still use older models which are in boxes collection dust.
Backwards compatibility is a real issue to me also.
Hey I just hit 100 posts.
DoughlessI'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425 Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative. I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories.
Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative.
I can use a brand new NCE wireless system to run my 1995 Atlas 2 function buzzing decoder. I don't know if that's because the basic DCC technology is compatible over time...or...if its because the NMRA standardized DCC systems, which make things compatible over time.
Yes. The NMRA has no way of standardizing what Apple, Samsung, or bluetooth produce...or intentionally make obsolete....over time. Because those technologies are used in so many other things than model railroading, we as hobbyists are vunerable. Unlike our DCC systems which are purpose-built systems.
Perhaps basic Bluetooth technology will always have a certain level of compatibility with decades old versions. I simply don't know enough about the technology to be confident that it will.
Doughless carl425 Doughless I'm asking bluerail users if they expect new iterations of smartphones down the road to always be compatible with the bluerail boards they just installed in their locos. That's a question. Its not negative. I have a fairly expensive Bluetooth headset that worked great with my iPhone 5 that will not pair with my iPhone 6s. If your throttle is iOS based, you run the risk of Apple's certification program nailing you. I have had things as basic as a charging cable and an auxiliary battery (connected via a certified cable) stop working after an iOS update. It seems that Apple puts a substantial effort into detecting and rejecting non-certified accessories. I can use a brand new NCE wireless system to run my 1995 Atlas 2 function buzzing decoder. I don't know if that's because the basic DCC technology is compatible over time...or...if its because the NMRA standardized DCC systems, which make things compatible over time. Yes. The NMRA has no way of standardizing what Apple, Samsung, or bluetooth produce...or intentionally make obsolete....over time. Because those technologies are used in so many other things than model railroading, we as hobbyists are vunerable. Unlike our DCC systems which are purpose-built systems. Perhaps basic Bluetooth technology will always have a certain level of compatibility with decades old versions. I simply don't know enough about the technology to be confident that it will.
If you are unsure of, or afraid of the technology you should stick with your old DCC system. I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
Bucksco I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
I personally like new things that have the potential to make things easier and enhance the experience.
I agree with that sentence, except I would strike the part about potential.
And personally, I am always scared of spending more money or time than I have too, so I tend to ask a lot of otherwise obscure questions before embracing things.
Bluetooth has been around since the early 90's (about the same time as DCC). I have Bluetooth gear from the 90's that I just checked and am still able to pair with. The bluetooth Special Interest Group (Apple, Microsoft and the cellphone companies) have managed to maintain backwards compatibility for the last 20 years and hopefully will for the foreseeable future. Bluetooth 5 is scheduled to release at the end of this year, which is supposed to allow for double the speed and quadruple the range. If/when manufacturers use Bluetooth 5 chips, the potential would be there for 600 ft range (who really needs that?). Bluetooth 4 smart phones would only do the 150 ft range. I think the basic ability to connect to your Bluetooth trains and control parameters will continue to work on future smart devices (the same way you can still connect to old Bluetooth equipment). I don't think train control requires any advanced Bluetooth features that push the envelope.
passenger1955 Bluetooth has been around since the early 90's (about the same time as DCC). I have Bluetooth gear from the 90's that I just checked and am still able to pair with. The bluetooth Special Interest Group (Apple, Microsoft and the cellphone companies) have managed to maintain backwards compatibility for the last 20 years and hopefully will for the foreseeable future. Bluetooth 5 is scheduled to release at the end of this year, which is supposed to allow for double the speed and quadruple the range. If/when manufacturers use Bluetooth 5 chips, the potential would be there for 600 ft range (who really needs that?). Bluetooth 4 smart phones would only do the 150 ft range. I think the basic ability to connect to your Bluetooth trains and control parameters will continue to work on future smart devices (the same way you can still connect to old Bluetooth equipment). I don't think train control requires any advanced Bluetooth features that push the envelope.
600 foot range would be great for G scale!
Thank you for that response. Its good to know there currently seems to be backwards compatiblity spanning many years. Information like this is useful to me.
Speaking for myself, I have found both of these "blue" threads interesting in that they have prompted me to research the issues in greater detail regarding dead rail, Bluerail, and Bluetooth.
The only issue with this thread is that it appears that few if any modelers are using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. Or, at least, few of the replies are from modelers using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. So, it is difficult to get a good perspective on Bluetooth technology for running trains.
My current layout is fully wired and operational using an NCE DCC 5 amp system, so I have no compelling reason to adopt Bluetooth technology on my current layout. However, if I build a new layout, I would relish the opportunity to build it without wiring. If battery power can be improved to the point that dead rail is flawless, I am all for that. I don't own an iPhone or iPad, so when the day comes, I hope that a manufacturer will provide an NCE-like throttle as the interface.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Speaking for myself, I have found both of these "blue" threads interesting in that they have prompted me to research the issues in greater detail regarding dead rail, Bluerail, and Bluetooth. The only issue with this thread is that it appears that few if any modelers are using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. Or, at least, few of the replies are from modelers using Bluetooth technology exclusively to run their layouts. So, it is difficult to get a good perspective on Bluetooth technology for running trains. My current layout is fully wired and operational using an NCE DCC 5 amp system, so I have no compelling reason to adopt Bluetooth technology on my current layout. However, if I build a new layout, I would relish the opportunity to build it without wiring. If battery power can be improved to the point that dead rail is flawless, I am all for that. I don't own an iPhone or iPad, so when the day comes, I hope that a manufacturer will provide an NCE-like throttle as the interface. Rich
And like Rich, I have a working system that serves my needs. In my case it is DC and it integrates advanced cab control with radio throttles, CTC and single button route turnout control.
But it is designed in a way that would allow the current wireless DC layout based throttles to be replaced with any sort of command control, including DCC, or bluetooth, or some other direct radio solution. I could literally just move eight pairs of wires to a different set of terminals and have a system with eight power districts of 13.8 constant filtered DC voltage for a system like this. All my other features would still work.
But I am only interested in doing that if a system (or improved DCC interface) comes along that really makes it easy and cost effective.
So as it stands, DCC costs too much, adds too much complexity, and has poor user interfaces.
But a direct radio system with the right features might be just the ticket - the benefits of individual control without the things I don't care for about DCC would be of interest.
When Crest gets their HO version of the Train Engineer Revolution farther along, I will take another look there as well. But so far, none of these systems are designed to handle large layouts, or large numbers of locos, and consisting, like DCC or a custom DC system like mine.
All of them, Crest, Bluerail, S-Cab, have limitations on numbers of locos, MU consisting, etc, which seems to me the first features I would have planned for.
It makes all these products only suited for someone with a small layout or who is only "dabling" with a few locos. That is not where I am at in the hobby........
As for all this talk about technology always changing and so forth, maybe some of you have simply accepted all this planned obsolesence, and for some things it is reality, and that is fine.
But except for those of you just "dabling" with a few trains, many in this hobby make a decade long commitment to construct a working layout "system".
"Obsolesence" is mostly in peoples heads if they own a working system they can maintain themselves - like my Advance Cab Control. It is only obsolete when I decide it no longer meets my needs.
The only other form of true obsolesence comes when I can no longer aquire service parts for a system that otherwise still meets my needs.
Some of you may like the constant change of "new stuff". Personally I find most of it wasteful and pointless - until something truely does something that has not been done and that ability truely provides a benefit.
I don't like spending money to constantly replace things that are, or should be, still working fine. But more importantly, on the 1000 sq ft, 8 scales miles of track, 8 trains running at once layout, I don't like spending time doing things over again - regardless of money.
So it may not seem like a big deal to some of you to replace three or four DCC decoders with Bluerail decoders in the locos you drag to the club or dable with on your 4x8, but before I put decoders/recievers in 135 locos, I'm going to be sure it will be a system that will last a couple decades at minimum.....
Sheldon
Doughless Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket. I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far. Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
Bucksco 2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
2.Bluerail Trains is selling separate sale boards that will plug into a DCC socket.
I've tried to decipher an answer to a basic question from reading the various comments on these threads but have failed so far.
Absent of advancements in dead rail and battery power/longevity (which is a separate issue), how would I currently power the rails? Can I plug a Bluesystem board into a "DCC Ready" socket and use a traditional DC powerpack to supply power to the rails?
cuyama Bucksco The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them. Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators. Bucksco The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated. But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Bucksco The public display layout could keep a device handy on which they have all of the locos paired to and basically disconnect particular locos in order for users to pair with them.
Sounds like a logistical nightmare for multiple operators.
Bucksco The beauty of upgadeable software is that when issues pop up they can be fixed and the app can be updated.
But the nature of Bluetooth can't be changed, of course. This and other pairing/unpairing issues will become more challenging as users expect Bluerail to come closer to DCC's existing features such as consisting and on-board sound.
Choops Doughless Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle. Yes, You don't need a service contract to use an older smart phone. You just need a wifi connection to download the apps. I know many people that give thier old phones to the kids to play games in the car and such. My current layout can handle up to 6 operators I dont want to have a contract for 6 phones if I can still use older models which are in boxes collection dust. Backwards compatibility is a real issue to me also. Hey I just hit 100 posts. Steve
Doughless Steve, I thought that one of the appeals of the smartphone among its users was the ability of a current smartpone to do everything...that you don't need multiple devices. Eliminiate the desktop, eliminate the tablet, eliminate paper and pen. And that was also PART of the appeal of Blurail, was to be able to use a current smartphone as a throttle, not to use an old smartphone like a purpose-built throttle.
Now that we have covered all the theories and discussed all the ways that BR is or is not a worthy addition to the model railroading universe, can some one please talk about the actual operating characteristics of the system? I thought that was what this thread was based on. Thank you.
Old Fat Robert
I asked how many are actually using BR as the control system for their model railroads and the question remained unanswered.
Apparently there aren´t any, other than the OP, leaving the discussion of the operating characteristic of this system in the foggy realms of theory.
Sir Madog I asked how many are actually using BR as the control system for their model railroads and the question remained unanswered. Apparently there aren´t any, other than the OP, leaving the discussion of the operating characteristic of this system in the foggy realms of theory.
The fact that no addtional posters have spoken up to say they are using/experimenting with Bluerail is a function of two things.
First the obvious, very few if any forum members beyond the the several who have already spoken up/started these threads have actually tried it.
Second, it speaks to a fact many on this forum do not want to admit or believe - forum participation, on this forum or any model train forum, only reflects a VERY small percentage of those in the hobby, likely as small as 1-2%.
So there could be lots of people out there giving Bluerail a try, or any of the other new throttles I have mentioned, they simply are not reading or responding to any of this. Likely, many would NEVER bother with any online forum.
I base my 1-2% simply on how many modelers I know personally, and how many of them spend time on forums - because I have discussed the topic of online forums with most of the modelers I know.
So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........
My previous posting to this thread on Thursday was delayed, so it got burried and likely unnoticed. I have just started to operate with the BlueRail app. Disclaimer: I don't have experience using other hand-held controllers and the club/show layout I operate on uses fixed panels with dedicated controls (basic rheostat throttle knob and direction toggle).
The BlueRail app is really intuitive. After selecting your detected loco, you power it up with a by tapping a button. Then either slide up on the throttle, or tap above it to use the speed steps. There is a setting that governs the overall speed range of the throttle. You can pick from a few presets: switcher, freight, passenger, and full speed. I use the freight mode and it tops out at a scale 30mph with my engine. It provides excelent slow speed and smooth accelaration.
Slowing down is much the same. While there is no brake feature yet, you can slide the throttle down or tap below it to step it down. There is also an emergency stop button which will immediately halt your loco.
The reverse button can be selected when you are stopped to change your direction.
There is no delays as Bluetooth commands are received instantaneously. Lights and sounds are accesed with dedicated buttons.
Watch the videos on the BlueRail website or request what you want to see more of and I, and other users, can post up additional information.
Darby
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........
If you really want to hear the pros and cons on Bluetooth for model trains, just Google 'bluetooth model railroad forums' to find discussions from those who actually use the system. But, be prepared for the same type of discussions taking place on this forum. Some love it, some hate it, most others fall somewhere in between.
Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....
Old Fat RobertNow that we have covered all the theories and discussed all the ways that BR is or is not a worthy addition to the model railroading universe, can some one please talk about the actual operating characteristics of the system? I thought that was what this thread was based on.
Yes, exactly. I fail to see why some cannot be courteous enough to refrain from posting the same old same old that they have already posted in the other thread.
Bucksco Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad....
Jack we are waiting just like you for all these other users of Bluerail to speak up...................................
(crickets chirping)
Above I clearly defended the fact that there may well be lots of people interested in, and using Bluerail, but they are clearly not on this forum..........
I for one have made my position clear, I'm not running to the phone store, buying a phone I don't need/want, ordering a reciever, downloading an app, and giving it a try.
Seems that if we truely restricted posts on this thread to those who are using Bluerail, the post count would be two.........
It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title.
''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen.
Take Care!
Frank
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby...........
True, but in my mind, because of the link between social media and the smartphone, my belief is that the percentage of folks here using Bluerail would be significantly higher than the percentage of modelers in general. I would even go so far as to say that MOST Bluerail users are also forum users (maybe not this forum). If you are not active online, how would you even know that Bluerail exists?
zstripe Bucksco Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad.... It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title. ''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen. Take Care! Frank
You are absolutely correct Frank! I started to think about the fact that DCC has been around for approximately 30 years and it has taken that long to become somewhat "accepted" as the defacto control system - although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. I googled "What percentage of Model Railroaders use DCC" and a thread from this forum popped up that was basically run down the same path by the same folks http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/248328/2770210.aspx so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.
Bucksco - although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.
- although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.
Over the course of both threads, you seem to place a value judgment upon people based upon what train control system they use. Its just trains. Its just about moving trains. Its not a religion. There is no conversion needed here. People are neither open-minded or closed minded because of how they choose to move their model trains.
Most people just try to solve the problem of multiple train movement (or even what they use a phone for in their daily life) in a way that suits their needs. Its simple problem solving, not a personality test.
They don't equate their use of technology as a means of judging what kind of person they are. But your posts are dripping with that kind of attitude, and that's the reason the thread wanders in a way you don't want it to.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL So here on the forum, we are our own little, very little, world. Which may or may not be a balanced cross section of the hobby........... True, but in my mind, because of the link between social media and the smartphone, my belief is that the percentage of folks here using Bluerail would be significantly higher than the percentage of modelers in general. I would even go so far as to say that MOST Bluerail users are also forum users (maybe not this forum). If you are not active online, how would you even know that Bluerail exists?
Carl, using the internet to research and/or purchase model train products, and taking the time to be active on a model train forum are two widely different things.
I know lots of modelers right here in my area, who buy most all their trains online, who are very tech savy, but never go on forums. One is the retired head of IT for a major east coast utility company - I think he knows his way around a computer or a smart phone - but he, and others, choose not to spend ONE MINUTE on this or any other forum.
And a lot of these same people don't spend time on "general" social media either - facebook, etc.
I have a BlueRail plugin board and one Bachmann EZ App loco. I belong to a club that is NCE. My home layout is DC. I have locos by various manufacturers (Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, BL, MTH) and have played with Tam Valley and SCab. Many bluetooth users post in the Dead Rail Society facebook page and all seem really happy. BlueRail talks in their emails about their high satisfaction rate. I love mine, so I get it. I am mostly HO. I've seen users that are O, G, On30 and S. I've put the board in a few different DCC-Ready steam tenders. The BR app has tuning options to tweak the slow speed operation on each loco (but the defaults usually work fine). The chuff-rate calibration is easy to use. I haven't played with the ditch lights. As others have mentioned, the interface is intuitive. There is a user manual on the website, but I've never had to use it. I like that I can bring my loco to the club and run it there too. In their emails BlueRail says they are about to add consisting to the app, and say they will move on to tackling onboard sound and integration with DCC. My only complaint on the non-DeadRail side is this first board doesn't have a place to attach a keep alive, but they say they will release a narrow board soon (targeting narrow diesels) and will add that connection option. They also talk about adding modules to the app to simulate operating sessions (dispatching, freight/passenger operations etc). I look forward to seeing where that goes. As people have said, if you've already dropped thousands of dollars on DCC, have JMRI all set up, and are happy - there's probably not much appeal. I'm not in that category. Based on emails from BlueRail, it seems like these technologies are moving towards merging anyway.
Bucksco zstripe Bucksco Apparently this has become the other topic....so sad.... It happens....I don't know how else You could have worded the title. ''A Thread for those of us who use it and would like to discuss it". Seem's pretty straight forward to Me. But it is a public forum, so it's gonna happen. Take Care! Frank You are absolutely correct Frank! I started to think about the fact that DCC has been around for approximately 30 years and it has taken that long to become somewhat "accepted" as the defacto control system - although many folks are really hardcore DC people as evidenced by this and the other thread. I googled "What percentage of Model Railroaders use DCC" and a thread from this forum popped up that was basically run down the same path by the same folks http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/248328/2770210.aspx so I guess this forum is a small segment of regulars who basically know what model railroading should be. Best probably to seek out other forums that will hopefully embrace change and hopefully it won't take 30 more years for Bluetooth to gain acceptance. Just looking for others who are interested in new ways to run trains.
Jack, If you really read a lot of those DC vs DCC threads, you will find that while I use DC on my layout, I am a big supporter of choice, and of the idea that no one control system suits the needs of every layout or every modeler.
In 9-10 years I have typed that more times than there are stars in the sky.
I apparently do not have as much time or money as you, because I cannot afford to buy stuff just to see how it works or to play with it to see if I like it.
Or like I said before, maybe I'm just at a different place in the hobby that does not afford me that luxury.
As I said before, I like the idea of a command control system that talks directly to the loco, not to a big infrastructure under the layout. And if Bluetooth proves to be the best way to do that, I might be interested one day.
But I'm mot interested in being the Guinea Pig.
It has taken DCC this long because people with medium to large layouts are not willing to throw away thousands of dollars worth of equipment and thousands of hours of work just to try something new - a point I have made repeatedly which you simply ignore.