For those that may want the newest electronic gizmo then I say that's all well and good and enjoy!
However.
I have absolutely zero interest in getting rid of my Tech 6 since it gives me all the DCC I need plus a means to continue running my DC engines.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Jeremy,
As others have mentioned, DCC can be an Aquired Taste. JMRI sure makes it easier to program your decoders. All digital control methods can be daunting at first.
Blue Rail is interesting, but is limited by the lack of sound, consisting and compatability with other Non DCC systems at this point.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Making it run off of JMRI was 10 times easier than the nightmare of setting it up using Digitrax manuals.(Had Windows 10 forced on me, so will be working with that again at a later date, have not tested it since). Also still have the programming side of it to work out.
The point remains that the manuals are a very poor to begin with and there seems to be no desire to fix them and make them more "correct" and more like an actual "instruction manual".
Techie or not there is no reason to make things harder than they need to be.
I can program 4 digit addresses, acquire locos and MU consists and break them down now. I still think it is a very long winded way to do things. A little work on the manufacturers part and I bet it could go from a 12 button step to 5 or 6.
On the super awesome side my 6 yr old has been at my side since 10:30am and is having a great time playing with stuff using the D402R plugged in to the Zephyr on our whopping 45inch test track/build table/work station.
I have him do the operations on the D402R or read me the instructions I've been building for my cheat sheets(crazy instructions too, they actually have all the steps you need to do something in one place).
MR used to say "Model railroading is fun" not "Model railroading is a pain in the [symbols removed]".
I've always felt that the DCC manuals tried to give the reader some education about DCC and didn't really focus on providing direct instructions for doing things that most modelers want to do. Like their target audience was with those liking to tinker with programming, but that perception may not be accurate.
Having said that, "change" away from something you already know can end up being a big waste of time and money.
- Douglas
Sir Madog FWIW, I have given up on the digital end of controlling my trains. I am back to DC, albeit with a high end throttle, giving me adjustable momentum and breaking. With my layout building skills waning, I will go another step back to the future - back to my old Marklin 3-rail AC trains running on that infamous tinplate track.
FWIW, I have given up on the digital end of controlling my trains. I am back to DC, albeit with a high end throttle, giving me adjustable momentum and breaking.
With my layout building skills waning, I will go another step back to the future - back to my old Marklin 3-rail AC trains running on that infamous tinplate track.
As much as I enjoy my DCC-powered HO scale layout, I still have more fun with my 1948 American Flyer AC-powered layout. My steamer has sound and it smokes.
Rich
Alton Junction
The "Bay" has lots of that stuff and while not exactly cheap, good deals are still available on that literally indestructible stuff. A set of screwdrivers and drill bits is all you need to build a nice layout and enjoy it - no 400 page manual with a techie language only the adept understand!
Every time I read one of these rants I wonder how you guys in larger scales survive with all of the control options available. I model N. They said DCC wasn't viable in N scale early 90's. Been using DCC with N since '96. When Blue rail or whatever else comes along that fits in my engines, I'll most likely give it a shot. Bluerail is cool, but it don't fit and I want to play trains now.
Martin Myers
Sheldon, I was going to bring up DC (and AC for the Lionel crowd) but felt the OP was specifically targeting DCC - so my comments were addressed accordingly.
I also should have said the majority of N/HO modelers, and of course not the entire spectrum of model train enthusiasts.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
ATLANTIC CENTRALThose with completed working systems have no incentive to change - this is what the OP and others before him fail to understand, for most in this hobby the control system is just a means to and end - if it is not broken......it will not be "fixed".
AMEN....Period....
Take Care!
Frank
mobilman44 Ahhh, where do I begin........ DCC has been in the process of taking over much of the Hobby over the last 15-20 years. The majority of MRs are now using it and have time/money/effort invested in it. It just isn't going to go away - especially for the sake of change. ..........
Ahhh, where do I begin........
DCC has been in the process of taking over much of the Hobby over the last 15-20 years. The majority of MRs are now using it and have time/money/effort invested in it. It just isn't going to go away - especially for the sake of change.
..........
First, even as a DC user, I agree, DCC is here to stay, for a very long time.......
But here are few thoughts:
If we consider ALL scales and gauges of model trains, DCC is not by any means used by the "majority" of modelers. In fact, it might just now be reaching the point of being the single most popular system, but is still likely no more than 50% - again of ALL scales and gauges.........and it may only be at 35% to 45%.
Sure, in HO and N, it is easily at 50% or above......and still growing, even if slowly at this point.
Rapid conversion by existing DC users slowed down years ago....the rest of the DC crowd will have to die off.......
And yes, most new entries into the HO/N scale hobby are going DCC.
BUT, three rail remains largely proprietary systems, as does large scale - I know, to a lot of you, those "modelers" simply don't count in the control system discussion.......
DC remains a viable system for many, especially those not interested in sound.........
What I see in the future is even more "splintering" as some people do embrace sytems like BlueRail, Crest, DCS, S-cab, RailPro, and various DCC radio hybrids like Airwire900 offered by CVP.
Personally, I have no interest in any system, DCC or otherwise that uses touch screen controllers of any kind - knobs and buttons for me thank you.
So BlueRail will not "takeover", but it will steal growth from DCC, and likely have little effect in converting exisiting DC holdouts.
DCC is here to stay, for the same reasons DC is still around.
Those with completed working systems have no incentive to change - this is what the OP and others before him fail to understand, for most in this hobby the control system is just a means to and end - if it is not broken......it will not be "fixed".
Sheldon
I hope I don't offend...I intend no offense with what I am going to say:
I am not a techie. I don't but use computers, and yes, I have been able to do some research and solve some common problems. I hate reading manuals, but when there's nothing else for it, I do it. And I win. I win every time because I will myself to succeed. Also, I have a very good command of the English language, and that helps a great deal. Not all of us share the same abilities, either with writing or with reading comprehension.
I chose Digitrax because it was recommended, and I trusted the recommending hobbyist. I did have to read and reread the manuals, both of them, a number of times. When I thought I understood and then immediately effected the actions described (to teach myself by integration...), I found that...EGADS!!!...it worked!! Just like the manual said.
I am now ten years into the Super Empire Builder, almost a dinosaur from Digitrax when I purchased it. It still runs like a top. I do the periodic software cleanouts, such as clearing the slot list and dispatching throttles for engines I have since placed back in their cartons for enjoyment in some months hence (helps to keep them 'new' to me).
By actively learning, practicing, and occasionally rehearsing/refreshing my use of the system, I have virtually no problems with it. Eventually a cord will fail, or something will smoke, but it's functionality to me is always fully available to me because I keep myself current with what it takes to get the most out of it, as designed by the engineers. I can't help mechanical defects, but I can do something about learning or currency defects, and that is because I make it a point to do so.
JEREMY CENTANNI So why 20 years after it was "new" are the manuals still garbage and it's a giant pain in the rear to get CORRECT COMPLETE information as far as setting them up, programming engines and getting your DCC items running? ... I am not disappointed by the purchase per se, but there really isn't a lot of excuses for the shoddiness of accurate information that is easily digestible for people new to the hobby. I'm scared to think if I wasn't decently tech savvy that it would have all been sent back. I'm sure people will jump in here and defend my manufacturer or one of the other ones, but to you I ask to play clueless and let me dump it all on you and see how you would fare then?
So why 20 years after it was "new" are the manuals still garbage and it's a giant pain in the rear to get CORRECT COMPLETE information as far as setting them up, programming engines and getting your DCC items running?
...
I am not disappointed by the purchase per se, but there really isn't a lot of excuses for the shoddiness of accurate information that is easily digestible for people new to the hobby. I'm scared to think if I wasn't decently tech savvy that it would have all been sent back.
I'm sure people will jump in here and defend my manufacturer or one of the other ones, but to you I ask to play clueless and let me dump it all on you and see how you would fare then?
DCC is as simple or as complicated as one wants it to be. I started out with a Bachmann EZ Command in 2005. Two wires, installed a couple of decoders (one of which needed the motor isolated), programmed the addresses, and I was up and going.
A year later I migrate to the NCE Power Cab. Again, two wires, a PCP panel, and I was up and going in 20 min. Hardly complicated.
Within a year I had my first sound decoder: A BLI 2-8-2 Mike (original Paragon). Programmed the address and I was up and going.
Over the years I have installed a few more decoders and have delved into the greater complexities of DCC & sound; mostly using the decoder manuals that came with the decoders to make the necessary CV value changes. Sound is great (in doses) but my interest is more into slow running for switching (which a couple of decoder companies seemed to have mastered right out of the box) and simple Rule 17 lighting features. I've also learned how to use JMRI Decoder Pro for moderate programming and for recording the CVs for my roster.
I've also enjoyed learning about wiring up a layout using live-frog turnouts and ground throws. Yea, I've had to get onto manufacturer's websites for some hints but that was to be expected. And I haven't even gotten into signaling yet but would eventually like to. All in due time.
Again, you can make DCC as simple or as complicated as you want. To be honest - I find computers, computer programs, and cell phones more complicated and challenging to learn and find information on than DCC. Course, those are ever increasing changing markets on a MUCH larger scale than the niche markets of DCC. And, IMO, Blue Tooth won't make things any less complicated for - I expect - an even smaller market.
Stupid easy? Nothing is going to be "stupid easy". But...what do I know? I'm just a dumb engineering technician who dislikes cell phone throttles and drives a 2008 Civic with 173K on it...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I never had an issue with the product documentation and manuels not being complete and precise, but then I live in Germany where CE rules govern the paperwork which has to come with any technical product.
I had Uhlenbrock, Trix and Lenz DCC command stations, as well as ESU and other brands of decoders.
As stated elesewhere in this forum, any other system will have a chance to replace DCC unless it is approved by the NMRA and its European counterpart NEM as an industry standard. Lenz, the inventor of DCC gave up on any patent and royalties to have that happen.
The manuals I have (Digitrax/NCE) are not easy reads, but I've managed to get done what needs to be done (with a bit of help from this Forum of course). The OP, being much more computer/electronics literate than me, should have an easy time of it for sure.
DCC has worked just fine for me for the last 8 years. NO electronic parts (system or decoders) have failed me. And I love using the throttle for "hands on" control.
I have no desire whatsoever to automate, or hook in so called smart phones, or plug in computors into my operations. If it ain't broken...........
And as Richhotrain indicated, it seems like we have the promise of something better than "sliced bread" come up. But none have taken even a foothold. There just isn't a need/market, so I won't be holding my breath waiting for that "pie".
JEREMY CENTANNISo why 20 years after it was "new" are the manuals still garbage and it's a giant pain in the rear to get CORRECT COMPLETE information as far as setting them up, programming engines and getting your DCC items running?
"garbage" ?
it's much easier to describe a system using components, controllers and decoders, from the same manufacturer.
the DCC manuals were obviously "correct and complete" enough for many people to successfully use DCC components supporting a standard with all its capabilities from many different manufacturers.
User friendly is not powerful
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
JEREMY CENTANNI This is exactly how Bluerail is going to destroy conventional DCC(which by now should be stupid easy but it isn't), by doing everything DCC should be doing already but it is not.
This is exactly how Bluerail is going to destroy conventional DCC(which by now should be stupid easy but it isn't), by doing everything DCC should be doing already but it is not.
I keep on being told that DCC sucks, but I continue to run my DCC powered layout without any problems. Now, I am told that it is not the electronics, it is the manual. Woe is me. Had I known that the manual that came with my system was inadequate, I never would have gotten into DCC. But, somehow I made it even without adequate instruction. In fact, I have done quite well. Hmmm, maybe the manual wasn't so bad after all.
I wish tomorrow weren't a holiday so that I could run down to my LHS and pick up a fully documented Bluerail system to replace my godawful DCC monstronsity. I really feel bad for the guys who ran out in early June to replace their DCC with VR. What were they thinking? Yes, Bluerail will destroy DCC, probably before the beginning of August.
Well, the question is twofold...
Do you want wireless control, but the ability to use other than mobile phones? Then Blurail is out.
I wanted wireless throttles and full sound in my locomotives. Furthermore I wanted the system to be easy to program and with a good user interface!
To add to the complexity, I wanted to be able to control turnouts and use regular tethered throttles as well.
What DCC system has all this then?
The ROCO Z21!
https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Roco/10822.aspx
Not only is it all of the above, it has so much more. It even uses LocoNet!
I don't need to use the home WiFi network as it has its own router.
Real plug and play! Just hook it up, install the App on your mobile device and then you are ready to go.
I use a Lenz and a Roco tethered throttle on it as well as my tablets and phones.
Really good and I won't go back to a pre 2000 DCC system architecture (i.e. most regular DCC systems...).
And BlueRail? No, too many limitations so far.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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Hi Jeremy:
I'm a dinosaur when it comes to computers and such. In fact, I'm not even sure what Bluerail is! However, I totally agree that DCC has missed the mark by making some things so complex.
Do you supose you could post a link(s) to some Bluerail information? I'll google it myself but if you can steer me towards some good sites that would be great.
OK, no need to post a link. I found the company website. Very interesting system. The only drawback that I can see for now is that the 'decoders' won't fit into many of my small 'critter' locomotives.
http://bluerailtrains.com/
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I'm almost wishing I never bought mine.
Do I love the things it offers? Yes
Do I want to run multiple trains? Yes
Do I want wireless throttle? Yes
That is pathetic. I will blame the manufacturers for that one. There is no excuse for it.
I set up my own computers, modems, routers and entertainment devices butt then again I can find information when I want/need it....
My rant will be on Digitrax since it is what I own. I went with it due to the fact that I had zero equipment and both clubs local to me use digitrax exclusively. Makes it a lot easier when you need help(although it does not work too well when you have a 6 yr old sidekick with you).
Maybe I'm going overboard and ranting, but there is no need for someting to be this messy this late in the game.