Sir Madog rrinker consumerism That´s the name of the game - that´s what it is all about! When we talk about value added, it´s not meant to be for the customer´s benefit, but the company´s balance sheet!
rrinker consumerism
That´s the name of the game - that´s what it is all about! When we talk about value added, it´s not meant to be for the customer´s benefit, but the company´s balance sheet!
rrinkerconsumerism
Of course that ease of upgrade (just downlaod the latest app) is a double edged sword - who cares if it's fuly working, just get the fixes in the next version!
Ease of and/or need to upgrade isn't always a benefit. Older Digitrax stuff only ever had one firmware update, in that the earliest DCS100 systems messed up above F8 (at the time they were released, the NMRA spec only went to F8). But since then, they've seen expansion with additional detection and signalling modules, new throttles that went to F12 and now F29, a completely new radio system, new computer interfaces, etc - and not once have they needed a firmware update, due to teh way the system is designes to NOT need them. The newer systems have your typical flash memory firmware so the end user can download the latest file and update the device themselves - and there have been several updates to various new components to fix one bug or another.
The ability to update CAN be good though, see yet another reason I don't like Tsunami sound decoders. The new version has new features. But I'd have to take my locos apart and swap the decoder sna end up with a pile of the old ones that no one would want. Enter Loksound. Not only have they done refreshed new recordings for many of their sounds, they also have introduced similar dynamic motor sounds found in the other new decoders. The only difference is - I can update all my existing locos without openign them up, using the same decoder that's already installed, by merely flashing the firmware. Even if I didn't already own the Lokprogrammer device to do this, after 2 decoders, you've recouped the price of the hardware vs having to buy all new decoders. 6-10 locos already equipped? The programmer is a downright bargain compared to the alternative.
And I blame consumerism for much of the present situation. Like all the peopel who line up outside stores for the newest smartphones. WHen the one they are using while standing in line WORKS PERFECTLY FINE. Or the huge bloat in most software these days. Well the other guys added a feature, so we have to add 5 to ours so it stays 'better' Features used by who? 1/10000000 of your user base?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Dressendorfer I guess a nice thing I've noticed about BlueRail is their system's non-reliance on hardware seems to lend itself well to continuous upgrades. In the last 6 months they have released a firmware update to 16 kHz pwm, chuff-rate calibration, ditch-lights as well as Android support. It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
I guess a nice thing I've noticed about BlueRail is their system's non-reliance on hardware seems to lend itself well to continuous upgrades. In the last 6 months they have released a firmware update to 16 kHz pwm, chuff-rate calibration, ditch-lights as well as Android support. It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
Dressendorfer It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
Course, that type of system lends itself to easier firmware updates than most DCC systems. And frequent updates don't necessarily equate to good products. For now, though, BR is working through the development of the firmware and interface so frequent updates are to be expected.
I do hope the product does well. It's going to take a lot of convincing and upside for me to switch from DCC; the interface being the largest undesireable hurdle.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I am sure the tecnoligy will go down in price over time.
rrebellIn this country On30 is very visible.
That I don´t challenge, but I assume the market share to be way below 5% and on a world wide basis much, much lower than that.
The biggest "large" DCC issue was that the NCE radio systems just constantly chatter and overwhelmed any nearby Digitrax radio system - this sort of thing only happened at large exhibitions where multiple clubs would be set up next to one another. This is one of several reasons Digitrax went to 2.4GHz for their new system, another being the 900MHz range used by them and NCE is not legal in many European countries (or maybe just England) and 2.4GHz is.
As for Bluerail being a "new breed" - in what way? It's functionally identical to systems like Railpro, except that instead of a (I'm sure not custom) radio module it uses Bluetooth Low Energy. Theoretically they should be able to make the receivers cheap if they use the same chipsets used in smartphones since they are produced in the millions if not billions, but that hasn;t manifested yet. The microcontrollers typically used in DCC decoders are also made in the millions or billions, everything these days uses a microcontroller even for simple tasks like blinking a light. And with Bluerail you use your own smartphone for a throttle instead of a customer device like Railpro - however that's a con for probably as many potential users as it is a pro - a large segment of model railroaders prefer knobs to turn over swiping on a touch screen. A combination device like some of those DCC throttles or Ring's controller have the best of both worlds, a knob to control the train plus the ability to have context sensitive labels on the buttons used to perform other functions. And keep in mind the ability to use a smartphone with DCC has been around for a while now, at LEAST 5 years with no cost and I'm pretty sure actually a lot longer. So I stand by what I previously posted - Bluerail is not really all that different than any other of the currently available direct radio systems other than their particular choice of rf protocol. There are some, like Tam Valley's Dead Rail - that work WITH an existing DCC decoder - the Tam Valley syetem basically turns the DCC system from a track-based carrier control to an RF based wireless, it broadcasts the NMRA DCC signal via RF to receivers in the loco which are powered by battery packs and need no rail connection for power. It's even compatible with the CVP T5000 throttle.
Sir Madog rrebell it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray. ... On30 is still hardly visible in the world of model railroading and even if Bachmann would offer the option of BlueRail for all their products, including Bachmann (UK), Graham Farish and Liliput, that would not be a critical mass to be accepted as a new standard, but continued to be seen as a proprietary system. I see dead rail as the one and only chance for any other train control system, but even in this field, BlueRail is not without competition - see DelTang! Still, I can´t picture a layout of the size of the Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg being battery operated and Bluetooth or R/C controlled. Just take a look of what effort these folks had to undertake to make sure their cars don´t "run out of gas" in hard to reach places! What we are doing here has the quality of foreseeing the future by looking into a crystal ball. Currently, there is no system around which has the potential to succeed DCC in short order. I understand Bachmann´s partnership with BlueRail as an attempt to draw more attention to Bachmann products by segmenting the market and offering a "techie-line". Others have tried that before.
rrebell it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray.
... On30 is still hardly visible in the world of model railroading and even if Bachmann would offer the option of BlueRail for all their products, including Bachmann (UK), Graham Farish and Liliput, that would not be a critical mass to be accepted as a new standard, but continued to be seen as a proprietary system.
I see dead rail as the one and only chance for any other train control system, but even in this field, BlueRail is not without competition - see DelTang! Still, I can´t picture a layout of the size of the Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg being battery operated and Bluetooth or R/C controlled. Just take a look of what effort these folks had to undertake to make sure their cars don´t "run out of gas" in hard to reach places!
What we are doing here has the quality of foreseeing the future by looking into a crystal ball. Currently, there is no system around which has the potential to succeed DCC in short order.
I understand Bachmann´s partnership with BlueRail as an attempt to draw more attention to Bachmann products by segmenting the market and offering a "techie-line". Others have tried that before.
maxman rrebell but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major. Maybe you could elaborate on this. I belong to a club, and yes sometimes there are issues. But we converted from DC to DCC and I can't say the number of issues have increased.
rrebell but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major.
Maybe you could elaborate on this. I belong to a club, and yes sometimes there are issues. But we converted from DC to DCC and I can't say the number of issues have increased.
betamax Wangrow bought out RammTraxx. Wangrow went out of business because they used software from NCE and the licence expired. They couldn't sell command stations or throttles if it needed a ROM licenced from NCE. Ultimately, Wangrow chose not to use an NCE designed system to update their product line and NCE decided to go their own way. Basically NCE replaced Wangrow.
Wangrow bought out RammTraxx. Wangrow went out of business because they used software from NCE and the licence expired. They couldn't sell command stations or throttles if it needed a ROM licenced from NCE.
Ultimately, Wangrow chose not to use an NCE designed system to update their product line and NCE decided to go their own way. Basically NCE replaced Wangrow.
Found some additional info on this: http://www.dccwiki.com/Wangrow
Also it appears that RamTraxx was what RamFixx called their system.
What we have in BlueRail is a new beast. You may compare it to old attemps at changing the world but this is a new breed in the fact that the builders are techies and buisness wize, the partnered with one of the largest train manufactures, Bachmann. Since the begining of the year the evolution of it is increadable having added android chuf rate sync ect. and consisting is in beta along with a bunch of other stuff. As to those who talk about phones being a problem, soon there will be stand alone thottles for people to buy, they already offer them as add on for some phones to play games. The real game changer is dead rail and just months after starting to sell boards they already have prewired dead rail units available. I have played with DCC and never really liked it as every time it passes a dead spot, no mater how small, the sound gets interupted, yes I know about keep alives and that ussually solves that problem but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major. Others say they never have problems with DCC, but I have personally never met one of these people. What I have said before though is what can propel Bluerail beyond the me too's is their partnership with Bachmann and it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray.
Jeremy,I don't think you're going overboard, I think you're just frustrated that somebody hasn't organized the available information in a way that is easy for you to digest. There are a complicated lot of variables to play with in DCC. Manufacturers feel they have little to gain by improving what they have already printed about them. Manuals may be terse, but I would be surprised if you found more than a few inaccuracies. Getting DCC running is "stupid easy"; getting more advanced DCC features running requires effort, experimentation, and sometimes tools like JMRI. The best support for DCC - and the hobby in general - typically comes from the community of model railroaders who are already using it and have figured out what works and what doesn't. Most folks are happy to share that information, as they do in this and other forums around the web.Digitrax themselves wrote The Digitrax Big Book of DCC (http://www.digitrax.com/products/digitrax-big-book-dcc/), applicable to any DCC system, which probably covers more than you ever want to know about DCC, in an understandable format - but you have to build your knowledge from the basics and work your way up to understanding the more advanced uses, of which there are many. Nearly everything that worked a decade or more ago still works the same way now, which is the beauty of a comprehensive standard. Plus for basic functionality, every manufacturer's decoder will work with every other manufacturer's equipment, so you're not stuck with Digitrax if you're not happy with them. The two sources I just mentioned are concentrated areas where you can get a lot of good and actionable information (in addition to the manuals, not instead of them). I have an NCE system and their manuals are brief, but usable. You still have to do a fair amount of thinking and doing in order to understand how everything works together. Like you, I am technically savvy, yet still have trouble piecing everything together to get what I want, because I want everything now. The supplied information is accurate, but room isn't made to explain things fully. There are far more non-tech-savvy people I know who make things work just fine. While it is indeed a shame that information is not presented better, it is adequate once you read and comprehend the supplied instructions. Your documentation may not be professional grade, but it was intended for hobbyists. Try to get rid of your preconceptions, be objective, follow the instructions, and you may find it quite easy.DCC will be around a long, long time. Bluerail may be the next big kid on the block, but I think rather than "destroy conventional DCC", you'll find it will be a viable alternative. Given a couple years, I bet they make hybrid decoders that will be both Bluetooth and DCC compatible. DCC isn't going away.I have a suggestion for you. Write down what you are having problems with and write to Digitrax. Products and manuals evolve. Maybe by sharing your information and wants, you can help them produce the kind of manual you are looking for. If you don't want to go that far, there are plenty of fellow modelers available you can ask questions of. I'm sure we'll do our part to help.--Ed EaglehouseModeling modern power
[Post edited by admin to remove mention of That Website Which Shall Not Be Named.]
Well, two of them actually - Wangrow and Ramtraxx. PSI (Dynatrol) may have dabbled in DCC in the beginning, they have an NMRA manufacturer ID but they are gone today. Phoenix Sound is another that I think is gone. There is reference to them being called Ramfixx as well as Ramtraxx.
betamaxHow many DCC manufacturers from the 1990's are still in business?
I believe that with the exception of one, the answer is all of them. And some of the components from that one company are compatible with NCE.
could you ask the same thing about PC manufacturers? The number of venders depends on the size of the market. (Does IBM still make PCs)?
I think Randy's comment about compatibilty was very interesting. A standard for wireless would help build such a market. Do you think any of today's wireless methods could be become an NMRA standard like Lenz's did?
I've wondered about expandability. The more expensive wireless decoders make sense for a small number of locomotives. At what point does someone trade in their wireless system for DCC?
when I worked at AT&T, I was told customers (e.g. Chase Bank) would often be unhappy with quotes for satellite earth stations (1980s) because AT&T quotes recognized that customers would quickly expand capacity. They became upset with the other venders when they understood that those quotes were for exactly what they asked for and they would have to replace equipment to expand.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Here is a question:
How many DCC manufacturers from the 1990's are still in business?
Oh yes - actually, I barely noticed he was gone
There will always be DC. DCC has been around long enough now that there will always be DCC. The others will be a fragmented mess unless the manufacturers get together and help set a compatible standard as was done with DCC - granted, the various systems were debated until Bernd Lenz offered his design for free and then it was effectively over as far as the NMRA was concerned. If there ever is some direct wireless standard, then it may become a significant third option. Right now it's like Android vs iOS. Taken together, all the various Android phones outsell Apple by a huge margin. But no one ANdroid phone comes close by itself. It's not jsut that people would want to take their trains to the club, or to a friend's house - there's also the one manufacturer issue with potential orphaning of the system. We've seen manufacturers come and go with more than just control systems. While I wouldn't be too happy if Digitrax went belly up tomorrow, I could just pick up any other DCC system and connect it to me (currently imaginary) layout and all my locos would work just like before. If I buy a bunch of Bluerail receivers and outfit my loco fleet and THEY go belly up tomorrow, I'm hosed. I could switch to say Railpro, but I'd have to buy all new receivers and retrofit every loco - one of the same major obstacles to an established layout switching to DCC. That's one problem I didn't have since I started with essentially nothing and I just outfit my locos with DCC as I acquire them, there was no mass purchase to outfit an existing fleet.
betamax Once the smartphone crowd realizes that DCC/LCC offers a lot more than any limited proprietary system based around wireless technology, they will drop it like last years iPhone. They are already accustomed to dumping their tech for something new and shiny every few years. Everyone who complains that DCC is "too complicated" should complain to the maker of their system and ask for a better interface to DCC, as that is what they bought. Every manufacturer chooses to make his interface to DCC as simple or as complex as they want. The Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
Once the smartphone crowd realizes that DCC/LCC offers a lot more than any limited proprietary system based around wireless technology, they will drop it like last years iPhone.
They are already accustomed to dumping their tech for something new and shiny every few years.
Everyone who complains that DCC is "too complicated" should complain to the maker of their system and ask for a better interface to DCC, as that is what they bought. Every manufacturer chooses to make his interface to DCC as simple or as complex as they want. The Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
The poor design of the user interface on most systems is high on the list of reasons I am still using DC.
With my advanced cab control, I designed most of the user interface myself and in my case selected the Aristo wireless throttle as the throttle control user interface.
The European throttles do seem better - but I don't care for touch screens or icons.
Sheldon
betamaxThe Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
I am afraid that´s rather true!
Even the cheap Trix Mobile Station II is easy to handle and uses a simple menue with icons to let you configure the properties of your decoders. That system has a street price of below $ 100 in Europe!
Nick100 I think Bluerail will be the system for the young people entering the hobby. They will identify with this system more than DCC. The Bluerail system will get even better in the future as the company continues to improve it to do updates. I will probably never go to it but I am not the young person that will continue hobby into the future. I use a NCE Power Pro that is intuitive and has a prompting display that leads you through programing. The first 4 pages of the manual will set you up to run trains.
I think Bluerail will be the system for the young people entering the hobby. They will identify with this system more than DCC. The Bluerail system will get even better in the future as the company continues to improve it to do updates.
I will probably never go to it but I am not the young person that will continue hobby into the future.
I use a NCE Power Pro that is intuitive and has a prompting display that leads you through programing. The first 4 pages of the manual will set you up to run trains.
rrinker Jeremy - I was referring to SouthPenn, not you, with the hyperbole comment. Sheldon - yes, at Timonium. As for the club, since I bought my house I've been not so much involved any more. The year I moved in, I took the vacation I usually used to spend the week at the Strasburg show to do the work I wanted and then move in, last year I kinda just didn't do it, nor did I this year again. I do still maintain my membership in the historical society (which the model club is part of), I just haven't been much of a participant lately. If you are referring to Bob - unfortunately he passed away over a year ago now. Complete shock as I had just visited with him - he was from western PA near where my GF is from and the club he belonged to always had a show over the Christmas holidays so I always stopped by to chat for a while when we went out there. Never did get to see his home layout, but at the show he was usually working on a new structure for it. Was quite a shock when I got the email saying he had passed not long afterwards. --Randy
Jeremy - I was referring to SouthPenn, not you, with the hyperbole comment.
Sheldon - yes, at Timonium. As for the club, since I bought my house I've been not so much involved any more. The year I moved in, I took the vacation I usually used to spend the week at the Strasburg show to do the work I wanted and then move in, last year I kinda just didn't do it, nor did I this year again. I do still maintain my membership in the historical society (which the model club is part of), I just haven't been much of a participant lately.
If you are referring to Bob - unfortunately he passed away over a year ago now. Complete shock as I had just visited with him - he was from western PA near where my GF is from and the club he belonged to always had a show over the Christmas holidays so I always stopped by to chat for a while when we went out there. Never did get to see his home layout, but at the show he was usually working on a new structure for it. Was quite a shock when I got the email saying he had passed not long afterwards.
No, I was thinking of David.
Yes, having the space and time for your own layout can change your views on clubs.....I stopped spending time with our local group, and dramaticly cut back on forum activities specificly to better use my time for family and actual modeling.
Again, as I have said in all these discussions, I agree DCC is here to stay for a long while, if not effectively "forever".
But I do think the hobby will continue to become more "splintered", and control systems will continue to be one of the dividing factors.