Hello Elmer thank you for the valuable infos, it's greatly appreciated.
Serge
Serge,if such a meeting was ever set-up around Montreal,better still in Trois-Rivieres,I'd certainly attend even only for the pleasure of meeting you guys.Jacques.
Hello Jacques, it will also be a pleasure for me to meet you guys. Let's keep our eyes open....
I've found out that I had misunderstood CV116.Setting CV116 with values 1 to 15 indeed sets automatic engine notching and that the set value determines how many speed steps are involved for every single engine notch...so I was only partially right.
On the other hand,setting CV116 with a value of 0 activates manual notching to be controlled with F9 & F10.A better explanation of how it works can be found in Soundtraxx's "Diesel sound user's guide" software release 1.08,pages 43-44.
Jacktal I've found out that I had misunderstood CV116.Setting CV116 with values 1 to 15 indeed sets automatic engine notching and that the set value determines how many speed steps are involved for every single engine notch...so I was only partially right. On the other hand,setting CV116 with a value of 0 activates manual notching to be controlled with F9 & F10.A better explanation of how it works can be found in Soundtraxx's "Diesel sound user's guide" software release 1.08,pages 43-44.
I understand that the 0 value does the manual notching with the function keys thing. This apparently is the value going into bits 0, 1, 2, and 3 on the CV chart. By the way I'm looking at page 68 of the Diesel Technical Reference, http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tsunami%20Diesel%20Technical%20Reference_1.13.pdf. Working with the bit values, and bit 0 has a value of 1, bit 1 has a value of 2, bit 2 has a value of 4, and bit 3 has a value of 8, then if all four of those are active then indeed the total added value will be 15. I'm still not certain what it means when it says that the "engine rpms increase every 1 - 15 speed steps per setting".
Am I correct in assuming that if I want the manual engine control enabled I'd have to activate bit 4 bit 5 which would result in me adding an additional 32 to the CV (total value 47)?
Since the default value of this CV is 39, am I correct in assuming that the active bits will be 4 5 (value 32), bit 2 (value 4), bit 1 (value 2), and bit 0 (value 1). [ 32+4+2+1=39]?
Thanks!!
Edit: corrected numbering of bits in use.
Bit 4 is 16, not 32.
If you keep bits 0-3 set to 7, then it won;t be manual notching. If you want manual control plus interlock so the loco won;t move unless the engine is running, you want bit 4=1, and bits 0-3 = 0, which is 16.
Bit 5 is the toggle between startup when power is applied or startup at speed step 1. That is where you add or subtract 32 from the value.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The way I think I finally understand it is that CV116 allows one two options for controlling engine sound .One is automatic notching where the operator doesn't have to bother with constantly adjusting the engine sound to specific situations.The decoder does it by itself as per pre-set datas and engine sounds will always follow the speed settings in a linear fashion.
To be as clear as possible,I use "speed steps" or "speed settings" for what we usually control with our throttle knob and leave the "throttle" term for the diesel engine part.
Our engines generally use the 128 steps speed settings while the diesel engine throttle sound has 8 notches.Let's say we set the automatic notching to 6 for instance,I undestand that the engine would have reached full throttle sound at about half speed range (6 speed steps X 8 notches=48 speed steps).On the other hand,if one elects to set automatic notching to 15,it's my understanding that the engine will be running at full blast when the speed setting is at top speed (15 speed steps X 8 notches=120 speed steps),totally linear through the entire loco speed range.So any values in either bit 0,1,2 or 3 will activate activate automatic notching and the total of these values will dictate the amounts of speed steps needed to either increase or decrease the engine sound notches.
In real life though,the diesel engine isn't running in a linear fashion with the locomotive speed.A typical situation is when climbing and the loco has to have extra power only to maintain its speed.While the electric axle motors don't rotate any faster,they do need an increase of electrical input to supply the extra power to pull its load uphill.So,in real life,engineers have to push the diesel engine throttle a few notches for them to generate the extra energy required.By setting CV116's bits 0,1,2 and 3 to 0,manual notching is active meaning that the diesel engine sound will either increase or decrease a single notch every time either F9 or F10 is used.A fun feature indeed as it allows to have a loco maintain a steady speed climbing a hill and simulate the extra effort the diesel engine has to provide to generate the extra current needed.
If one elects to use manual notching,then he'll have to CV112's bits 0 and 1 to 1 to activate automatic compressor and fan control as he no longer can use F9 and F10 to control them manually.
By setting CV116's bit 4=1,we activate "engine RPM" interlock wich keeps the loco on a stand still until the diesel engine start sequence is completed,a nice feature too.
Setting bit 5=0:"prime mover starts up at speed step 1".If one sets bit 5 to 1,the engine sounds are triggered when power is supplied to the track.Modeler's preference dictates here.With bit 5=0,I believe that the engine will move forward once the engine start-up sequence is complete,if it does,I'll try setting CV67 to 0 so no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
Then we have bits 6 & 7 wich control the diesel engine throttle upon the activation of the dynamic brakes.Different railways have different ways in the matter.Setting both to 0...diesel engine is not affected in any way.Setting bit 6=1 pulls engine back to idle sound.Setting bit 7=1 brings engine throttle to notch 4 and setting both bits 6&7 to 1 forces engine RPM sounds to full throttle.
The big question...did I get it right?I think so.If I'm not please someone correct me...I'm still learning....I haven't received my Tsunami's yet,so this is all theory that I'll have a chance to test next week.
Jacques I am looking forward to see the outcome of your testing. This a very Interesting experimentation.
As far as meeting you and Serge, here at the Trois-Rivieres club we will probably have an open house in 2013. If you attend you will be able to see Decoder Pro in action along with Wifi throttle for the iPhone/Ipod/Android phone. The club is powered with a Digitrax Super Chief 8a radio and I also own a NCE Power Cab that I could also demonstrate for those interested.
Jack W.
Now you're getting it. CV116 controls 4 different things, using individual bits or gorups of bits for the different settings. Bits 0-3 control the notching, bit 4 controls the interlock, bit 5 controls the startup, and bits 6-7 control the braking.
Bits are numbered right to left, so it's 7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0
Individual values are 128-64-32-16-8-4-2-1
If a bit is a 1, add the value. So, just an example, you set bits 6, 4, 2, and 0 you would add up 64+16+4+1 = 85 for the decimal value to program the CV with.
Jacktal With bit 5=0,I believe that the engine will move forward once the engine start-up sequence is complete,if it does,I'll try setting CV67 to 0 so no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
With bit 5=0,I believe that the engine will move forward once the engine start-up sequence is complete,if it does,I'll try setting CV67 to 0 so no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
Looking back through the posts on this topic I believe the the OP, Scribbelt, already has determined that what you are saying is correct. He was told by Soundtraxx to put a value of 7 into CV 116. I guess that value got him the result he was looking for. And I do believe that the engine will move at step 1 unless you have the CV for that step adjusted to a low enough value such that the resulting voltage to the loco is not enough to turn the motor.
But I consider this solution unsatisfactory. In my opinion one should be able to start the loco without having to advance the throttle. If I remember correctly, that was what the OP originally desired.
So right now it appears to me that the only way to have this occur is to use the emergency stop cab function to shut down the engine, and then press any function to get the loco to restart. I know Randy believes this to be impractical because some of the various "operator" handsets don't have this function. So I had to laugh a little when I read on page 43 of the Tsunami users Guide ( http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Users%20Guide%20Diesel.pdf) "Setting CV 116 between 1 and 15 enables Automatic Engine Notching Mode. Automatic notching causes the engine RPMs to change in proportion to the throttle setting. Pressing Emergency Stop will cause the engine to shut
"Setting CV 116 between 1 and 15 enables Automatic Engine Notching Mode. Automatic notching causes the engine RPMs to change in proportion to the throttle setting. Pressing Emergency Stop will cause the engine to shut
down."
With my NCE system I know that if I use the e-stop function to shut down a loco it will sit there quiet until I press a function key(headlight). At that time the loco will start but I will still be a speed step zero. I suggested to someone that he try this in conjunction with setting CV 113, the Quite Mode Timeout Period CV, to a small value. The instructions state that after a period of time the loco should shut down and remain silent until it is addressed. When addressed, it should go through the start up cycle. The person reported back that he had tried this and the loco shut down as advertised, but then started up again. That individual had a Digitrax system.
In one of his posts, Randy mentioned that some DCC systems polled all decoders in use continuously, while others apparently only polled a decoder when the system wanted the decoder to do something. He also said that the way to stop a decoder from being polled was to dispatch the loco from the system. Since I don't have Digitrax, I'm not sure exactly what this means, but that's probably not important to the issue.
If someone with a Digitrax system is willing to experiment, what I'd like them to try is to set CV 113 to a small value. Stop the engine and turn off all the functions. Then while waiting for the engine to shut down dispatch the loco. What hopefully will happen is that the loco will shut down and sit quietly until such time as you select that loco for operation again.
If that works, maybe that will eliminate the need for using e-stop to get the loco to shut down, the engine will not restart until selected, and it will not be necessary to use speed step 1 as the initial input to get your motor running (headout on the highway, looking for adventure...........ummmm, sorry).
If anyone tries this, let me know. Inquiring minds need to know.
Aside to Randy...yes, I did specify the incorrect value for bit 4. I meant to say that bit 5 had a value of 32. I can't count my fingures correctly at 1 in the morning.
I understand what you mean...and that got my gears spinning again.In this specific case,I guess having an "engine start" function key would be the only solution that would please everyone but then we'd lose a function key for some other feature.
Right now,I can't test my theory but as soon as I'll be able to do it,I'll let you know how it worked out.And yes,I'll give your idea a try too.However,having any single function (headlight,bell,etc) automatically initiating the engine start-up sequence is not exactly what I'm looking for.What I'd like is being able to start the engine independently from any other function and let the decoder's last command memory keep the loco idling (simulating engine warm-up) indefinitely if I wish to while I use my handheld for other loco(s).So giving the throttle knob a click to start the engine,though not perfect,seems satisfactory to me.But then,only testing will confirm...
One good option would be that,using manual notching,just pressing the notching + knob (F9) would initiate the start-up sequence even at speed step 0 and then notching - (F10) could shut the engine off.I suspect it doesn't but I certainly will give it a try too.....
Hello Jack, thanks for the infos on the 2013 Open House in Trois-Rivières, please keep us informed.
Now going back to the original topic, I agree I have to go one notch on the throttle to get the engine at the start up sequence and not the idling but I immediately go back to Zero and the engine goes on idle.
IMO it's not the way it should be but it's better than selecting the loco and having it immediately go on idle....
It may seem strange indeed but it's not any worse than pushing a "start" button.Now,how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down?Something else to think about....
Jacktal It may seem strange indeed but it's not any worse than pushing a "start" button.Now,how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down?Something else to think about....
I have NCE, and the way it works for me is that if I push the e-stop button once with the loco stopped the loco will shut down. I have to push that button (I believe) 3 times for the layout to shut down. This is not a problem for me, unless my hand stutters. However, there is a member of our club who has a condition that makes pushing any button a challange. Pushing that button once would be problematical for him.
Also, as Randy Rinker reminds us, not all handsets have the e-stop capability.
I wonder if there is a way to re-task one of the unused function buttons to function as the e-stop?
I was speaking to a friend last night about how he'd like all this to work. I think he said that he wanted the engine to stop in the yard with the headlight off, and continue to have the motor running indefinitely. But then he wanted the engine to not re-start if there was a momentary short. Although I haven't had time to look at all the CVs, I don't think he can have this happen.
I'm afraid that there is no way to make everyone happy.
I haven't really read into this thread except to get the general gist. I see that you are discussing CV116 in a Tsunami decoder variant? It so happens that CV116 is the CV for controlling 'chuff rate' in a steam locomotive decoder of the Soundtraxx Tsunami variants. It may mean nothing at all as far as generalizing the intent of the CV across diesel vs. steam, but I thought I'd mention it. CV116 can be adjusted in value to eventually match the cyclic turning of the main crank on a steamer so that there are the requisite four chuffs per revolution.
Crandell
Hi Guys,
Very interesting thread. I have had a Digitrax Big Boy since the mid 90's, but only last month bought my first sound decoder, Tsunami TSU 1000 for a GP 9.
I am learning how to program it using Decoder Pro, a very worthwhile investment. The older hand controlers (throttles) only have 5 function buttons, so I am limited there, but all have a stop button.
One of the controllers acts as the command station and if that stop button is pushed it shuts down the whole layout. If a stop button is pushed on any of the other controllers which are controlling the Tsunami equipped loco, it only shuts down the engine sound. Turning the speed control 1 step starts the engine startup sequence. I have bell, and horn sounds set on automatic as well as brake squeal.
I will keep expermenting.
Paul
Living in Fernley Nevada, about 30 miles east of Reno, also lived in Oregon and California, but born In Brooklyn NY and raised on Long Island NY
selector I haven't really read into this thread except to get the general gist. I see that you are discussing CV116 in a Tsunami decoder variant? It so happens that CV116 is the CV for controlling 'chuff rate' in a steam locomotive decoder of the Soundtraxx Tsunami variants. It may mean nothing at all as far as generalizing the intent of the CV across diesel vs. steam, but I thought I'd mention it. CV116 can be adjusted in value to eventually match the cyclic turning of the main crank on a steamer so that there are the requisite four chuffs per revolution. Crandell
CV116 does a bunch of different stuff and in the diesel flavor is called Engine Exhaust Control. I don't know why they hide things here that seem not to be relevant to that title, including notch rate and auto start enable (see page 68 http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tsunami%20Diesel%20Technical%20Reference_1.13.pdf). Nothing about chuffs.
I haven't looked at the steam equivalent to this manual, but I think I'd be pertty safe in assuming that there's nothing in there about engine notches, unless they are related to the Johnson bar.
Jacktal wrote:
How can I have the engine start-up with speed step 1 (bit 5) and keep idling without moving after the start-up sequence is complete (bit 4)?My un-tested solution is to set CV67=0 so that no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1 and then re-design the speed curve to compensate for the change. Would this work?I think so...I'll know for sure next week.
- Yes, this works as this is what I am doing on my NCE system.
Then Jacktal also wrote:
However,having any single function (headlight,bell,etc) automatically initiating the engine start-up sequence is not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'd like is being able to start the engine independently from any other function and let the decoder's last command memory keep the loco idling (simulating engine warm-up) indefinitely if I wish to while I use my handheld for other loco(s). So giving the throttle knob a click to start the engine,though not perfect,seems satisfactory to me. But then,only testing will confirm...
- Again, yes. I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
Then you wrote:
Now, how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down? Something else to think about....
- On the NCE system, pressing E-stop once stops the train on the throttle that is being used. Pressing E-stop two or three times will shut down the whole layout.
On the NCE throttles, you can remap the functions of different buttons. Not sure about the throttles of other DCC systems.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19 I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
I have been reading this thread keenly as I have a similar issue. I have Athearn-Genesis factory installed Tsunamis on two locos: a GP15 and an SD70. In both cases, the above is not true- as soon as I go to speed step zero, the loco initiates a shut down sequence and shuts down. I have played with CV11, CV113 and CV 116. Nothing seems to change- except bit 5 on CV 116. Bit 4 on CV116 has NO impact, the loco starts moving before start sequence is finished. I am running a Zephyr Extra.
Any thoughts?
NP
Factory installed decoders are known to have differences with the "after-market" ones.However,I don't believe this is one.
I have a theory I haven't had a chance to test by myself but seriously think it should work.Disable the time-out packet by setting CV11=0 (default).Then set CV25=16 to activate the speed curve if it's not already set.Then set CV67=0 so that no voltage is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
My un-proven theory is that turning the throttle knob to speed step 1 will initiate engine start-up & idling without any movement of the loco wich should start moving at speed step 2.Turning back to speed step 0 should initiate the shut down sequence to a final stop.Not perfect I know.It seems to be an oversight from Soundtraxx engineers who have designed otherwise good decoders.
I should receive my decoders by next week and I'll then let you know my findings,until then what I say is theoretical.
NP,
I have found that happens when in 14 step mode. By setting OpSW 21/22/23 on the command station to default (T) cured it for my club (OpSW 21 must be 'T").
Peter
CNR378, you got me really excited. I dropped my 2-week old and ran to the basement and set 21/22/23 to t/t/t. No effect . It made so much sense because at some point my digitrax throttle started behaving a bit different in that no engine moves until the rotary dial passes the "1" indication on the throttle. (Note I am using a DCS51 throttle and don't have a DT4xx with electronic display of speed step.) I thought this behavior occurred because somehow the system got programmed into 14 step.
I believe when I had only 1 engine, the sound behaved normally. Also it is normal (ie idle continues indefinitely at Spped Step 0) on my Bachman Spectrum 4-6-0 which is also factory equipped with a Tsunami.
Jacktal, I will try your trick. But I suspect an issue still because when I leave my loco at Speed Step 1, a while after switching it quits idling.
NP.
All that OpSw setting does is make the default selection for a new loco use 128 speed steps, that should have no effect on anything related to the sound starting up. If someone's messed with that you could have some serious problems selecting and runnign ANY loco regardless of decoder, because you can use those switches to put the system into a default of Motorolo Trinary mode, or 14 speed steps (28/128 work the same so other than having fewer speed steps, a loco with CV29 set to 28/128 will function correctly either way).
You COULD set OpSw 14 to Closed to disable loco purging, which means that once selected the loco will always remain connected in the command station memory, and thus packets will always be sent to it,keeping the sound on - however if you have many locos you will quickly fill the slos and get a FULL or Slot Max error, so this is NOT recommended.
They really need to just make the startup and shutdown a function button. Everyone else does that, maybe if we all complain loudly enough, Soundtraxx will make the change. It's a method that will work on ALL DCC systems and there would really be no need to worry about timeout settings - which IS different between DCC systems, since Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. This whole e-stop/step 1 business is hokey.
[quote user="rrinker"]
All that OpSw setting does is make the default selection for a new loco use 128 speed steps, that should have no effect on anything related to the sound starting up. If someone's messed with that you could have some serious problems selecting and runnign ANY loco regardless of decoder ....[/quote]
Yeah I was too excited.
[quote user="rrinker"] You COULD set OpSw 14 to Closed to disable loco purging ... [/quote]
I have done this now. Home layout with only 4 engines presently so should be OK. This should help, if I carefully I stop everything at Speed Step 1 and use speed tables to set speed step 1 voltage to 0.
rrinker ... Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. ...
... Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. ...
This is what is perplexing me. I have a Digitrax system! It seems it's more related to the Tsunami itself though, where each time it hears Speed Step 0, it shuts down the prime mover. It's is very irritating as I don't want engines power down at red lights and station stops! I just need to schedule some time on a workday to call Soundtraxx.
NP01 This is what is perplexing me. I have a Digitrax system! It seems it's more related to the Tsunami itself though, where each time it hears Speed Step 0, it shuts down the prime mover. It's is very irritating as I don't want engines power down at red lights and station stops! I just need to schedule some time on a workday to call Soundtraxx. NP.
Well, I can't say for sure, but it certainly sounds as though you have some small value in CV 113. If you have a value of 1 in there, the sounds will go silent in 1 X 0.25 seconds if the Tech Manual is to be believed.
When you are bringing the engine to a stop, do you have any of the functions (headlight, for example) still on? According to the Manual the sounds should not stop if any of the functions are on.
Functions ON makes no difference (tested with headlight)
Have placed 0 in CV113, that was the first thing when I started messing with this (another thread) on I believe your suggestion.
Randy, sorry for messing up my response to your advice. I was trying to be crafty with the quote function and it did not work out.
Locomotives that had operated correctly for years all of a sudden began acting as you are seeing after a CS reset with OpSW 21 being set 'C' after that. After another CS reset (OpSW 39) this time leaving OpSW21 at default cured the problem.
It is not a decoder problem directly as a locomotive exhibiting this problem was taken to another layout and acted correctly. All club locomotives returned to normal after correcting the CS,
While I may be wrong about OpSw 21 causing the problem, I recommend at a minimum you do a system reset.
It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.Randy's idea is the best...a start/stop button would do the trick indeed.An oversight from Soundtraxx's engineer(s) that they'll likely correct some day.
Jacktal It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.
It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.
Now that is something I believe we can all agree on!!!
CNR378 While I may be wrong about OpSw 21 causing the problem, I recommend at a minimum you do a system reset. Peter
I think OpSw 21 had something to do with it, because when I first went there (your first advice), 21/22/23 were in an invalid state c/t/c.
Thanks Peter! This is definitely something to file away!
-NP.