Thanks Jacques for the update.
Jack W.
It's me again...but with some "hands on" experience now.I've received my decoders and have had a chance to verify my theories.Well...a good part of them verified true but I also found some interesting features incorporated into these decoders.
As much as I like to know how to do things I also make it a point to understand why...generally it helps a lot in understanding how.I will not attempt to teach as I believe most modelers do know this.I just want to tell what I found and what my findings tell me,so that my comments may trigger comments from other modelers...great if they do...I'll learn that much more.
In prototype locos,the diesel engine has to deliver power first so that it becomes available to drive the traction motors,so the train engineer has two throttles to handle to operate the loco.First,the prime mover to build up sufficient power then some sort of rheostat control to energize the traction.What I understand is that these throttles are not linear to eachother as they are continously adjusted to every different situations.Accelerating,climbing and/or pulling a heavy load at slow speed,for example,will need the traction set for lower speeds while in return,the high energy needed will require the diesel engine's RPMs to be raised (notching) sometimes to full throttle to deliver enough current.On the other hand,when a train has reached its speed,or is "coasting" on level grounds,the traction likely needs a lot less energy to keep up even higher speeds,so the engineer will reduce the diesel's RPMs,thus reducing both noise and fuel consumption.
Now,my other findings...first the decoder is a Tsunami KT1000(FDL16),the loco is a brand new Kato AC4400CW and the DCC set is a DCS200/DT400R combo.
The TSU KT1000 offers two options to suit everyone's taste...automatic and manual notching.The "automatic" settings allow the modeler to operate his loco without having to care for matching the prime mover's sound with the loco speed,just that simple.On the other hand,"manual" notching requires that the modeler constantly adjusts the prime mover's sounds to the loco's speed.However,the loco will run just the same if he doesn't...the sound just won't follow.
The intriguing "bits" in CV116...what I've found...
Automatic notching settings...first...bits 0-3 have to be set to a value of 1-15.A value of 1 (in bit 1) will activate automatic notching.Then the other values will set how many speed steps per notch the engine sound will increase/decrease.If one sets a value of 15,the prime mover will accelerate one notch at every 15 speed steps.Since there are eight notches,the diesel would reach full RPM at 120 speed steps(15X8=120.This means that the diesel will be practically linear with the loco's 128 speed steps.Then if a setting of say 7 is in,the diesel will accelerate a notch every seven speed steps.Simple math...8 notches X 7 speed steps=56 speed steps meaning the diesel will reach full RPM at approx. half speed of the loco...somewhat prototypical under high loads but noisy and wasting fuel the rest of the time.
Bit 4 is not used with automatic notching...set to 0
New decoders come with bit 5 set to 1 so the diesel sounds come on with track power.Then one can shut it down with Em.Stop and restart it with speed step 1.Slightly diverging from the instructions but it works.
I haven't tried setting notching while dynamic brakes are on.I didn't need it and suspect it wouldn't work.
Manual notching...prototypical...my choice.Setting is short...Bits 0-3=0.Then set bit 4=1.It keeps the loco stand still until prime mover has completed its start-up sequence even if the throttle knob is turned a few clicks.With manual notching selected,I've found that:diesel sound WILL NOT come on with track power,WILL NOT shut down with EM.Stop and WILL NOT restart with speed step 1.Instead,pressing F9 (double click) starts the prime mover and every other double click cranks the RPM an extra notch.Then every double clicking F10 will slow the diesel sound a notch down to complete stop.I also found that at notch 0 (diesel sound off),turning the throttle knob won't move the loco and the directional lights will not "shift"
My loco has dynamic brakes so I chose to have them bring the diesel sounds to notch 4 when used.so I've set bit 7=1 for a total CV setting of 16+128=144.It works great,I love it.Just hoping this wasn't too painful to read...I'm open to comments...in fact I expect some....
According to Soundtraxx's "Diesel sound user's guide" release 1.08 page 3 & 4,your decoder is doing exactly as it should do.If mine react this way,I'll be satisfied and won't tinker with CV's to change this.
The idea behind CV67=0 is because I noticed on some Youtube videos that some locos did jump forward a bit even before the prime mover had finished its starting sequence.I know now that it was likely due to an improperly set CV116 bit 4.However,the original post was about having the prime mover idling upon powering the track,wich is taken care of by CV116 bit 5.
So...for me...CV116 will be set this way:
I want manual notching so bits 0 through 3=0.I don't want the loco to move before the prime mover is actually running so bit 4=1.Then having speed step 1 initiate the diesel start sequence is OK with me so bit 5=0.And last,I want the diesel throttle set at notch 4 (approx. 50% throttle) when dynamic brakes are applied so bit 6=0 and bit 7=1.Total CV116=144.If this works as I expect it to do I'll be very happy.
Using manual notching means I'll lose F9 & F10 to control the air compressor and the radiator fans manually so I'll have to have them automatically controlled by setting CV112 bit 0=1 and bit 1=1.Total CV112=3
OK so here is what I did: CV 11 = 0 CV 25 = 16 CV 67 = 0
Speed curve CV 67 = 0 CV 68 = 4 then the rest really do not matter for this experiment.
What this did was: power on the layout, no sound. Turned on headlight, no sound. Turn speed control one step, engine start up sequence and idles. Turn speed control to step two, engine starts to move. Bell set to go on automatically at step three. Run engine. Turn speed control to 0, engine stops but engine idle sounds. Turn off light, engine still idles. Hit stop button, engine shut down sequence, but rest of layout still has power.
I did not like the speed curve so I went back to standard 28 / 128 speed steps, with CV 3 = 15 and CV 4 = 15 What this did was: power on the layout, no sound. Turned on headlight, no sound. Turn speed control one step, engine start up sequence and engine idles, but gave me time to turn speed control back to 0. Turn speed control to step one engine starts to move. Bell set to go on automatically at step three. Run engine. Turn speed control to 0, engine stops but engine idle sounds. Turn off light, engine still idles. Hit stop button, engine shut down sequence, but rest of layout still has power.
I hope this helps.
Paul
Living in Fernley Nevada, about 30 miles east of Reno, also lived in Oregon and California, but born In Brooklyn NY and raised on Long Island NY
I should receive my decoders this week so I'll have a chance of doing my own testing.In the meanwhile,I've tried understanding how the appropriate CV's work and I've suggested what I believe should work.If he confirms these settings work as per my theory,I'll still try to find a simpler way,though this wouldn't be so bad.To be confirmed.....
Jacktal So...if I understand well...the loco stays silent when you put it on the track,then again stays silent when you "select" it meaning you can turn the lights on or activate another function without triggering the engine start sequence....that was my first goal.
So...if I understand well...the loco stays silent when you put it on the track,then again stays silent when you "select" it meaning you can turn the lights on or activate another function without triggering the engine start sequence....that was my first goal.
I'm not sure he exactly said all that. If he did, I'd like to know what values he put in which CVs.
I suspected turning the throttle knob back to 0 would initiate the shut-down sequence so I also expected to have to keep a throttle setting of at least 1 to keep the engine idling indefinitely.It doesn't shut down...good...no need to constantly care about the throttle setting...better than I'd expected in a way.
Then,when you feel like it,you initiate the engine start-up sequence with a click of the throttle knob,then back off to 0 and engine keeps idling indefinitely...very good.Then,when again you feel like it,you can initiate the shut down sequence by pressing "EM. Stop" without shutting down the whole layout.I call this quite satisfactory....I could live with this.Thanks for letting us know your results.
Jacktal Factory installed decoders are known to have differences with the "after-market" ones.However,I don't believe this is one. I have a theory I haven't had a chance to test by myself but seriously think it should work.Disable the time-out packet by setting CV11=0 (default).Then set CV25=16 to activate the speed curve if it's not already set.Then set CV67=0 so that no voltage is sent to the motor on speed step 1. My un-proven theory is that turning the throttle knob to speed step 1 will initiate engine start-up & idling without any movement of the loco wich should start moving at speed step 2.Turning back to speed step 0 should initiate the shut down sequence to a final stop.Not perfect I know.It seems to be an oversight from Soundtraxx engineers who have designed otherwise good decoders. I should receive my decoders by next week and I'll then let you know my findings,until then what I say is theoretical.
Factory installed decoders are known to have differences with the "after-market" ones.However,I don't believe this is one.
I have a theory I haven't had a chance to test by myself but seriously think it should work.Disable the time-out packet by setting CV11=0 (default).Then set CV25=16 to activate the speed curve if it's not already set.Then set CV67=0 so that no voltage is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
My un-proven theory is that turning the throttle knob to speed step 1 will initiate engine start-up & idling without any movement of the loco wich should start moving at speed step 2.Turning back to speed step 0 should initiate the shut down sequence to a final stop.Not perfect I know.It seems to be an oversight from Soundtraxx engineers who have designed otherwise good decoders.
I should receive my decoders by next week and I'll then let you know my findings,until then what I say is theoretical.
Jack,
I tried your suggestions, and they work somewhat. The only issue is that the engine will not shut down when setting back to speed step 0. Keep in mind though I am running a Digitrax Big Boy system, which is kind of out dated so I do not know if that could be the problem. Like I said previously I just hit the stop button and the engine does its shut down sequence. I am still going tot have to tweak the speed curve to my liking.
CNR378 While I may be wrong about OpSw 21 causing the problem, I recommend at a minimum you do a system reset. Peter
While I may be wrong about OpSw 21 causing the problem, I recommend at a minimum you do a system reset.
Peter
I think OpSw 21 had something to do with it, because when I first went there (your first advice), 21/22/23 were in an invalid state c/t/c.
Thanks Peter! This is definitely something to file away!
-NP.
Jacktal It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.
It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.
Now that is something I believe we can all agree on!!!
It seems there's no CV settings combo that will work on all systems.Randy's idea is the best...a start/stop button would do the trick indeed.An oversight from Soundtraxx's engineer(s) that they'll likely correct some day.
NP,
Locomotives that had operated correctly for years all of a sudden began acting as you are seeing after a CS reset with OpSW 21 being set 'C' after that. After another CS reset (OpSW 39) this time leaving OpSW21 at default cured the problem.
It is not a decoder problem directly as a locomotive exhibiting this problem was taken to another layout and acted correctly. All club locomotives returned to normal after correcting the CS,
Functions ON makes no difference (tested with headlight)
Have placed 0 in CV113, that was the first thing when I started messing with this (another thread) on I believe your suggestion.
Randy, sorry for messing up my response to your advice. I was trying to be crafty with the quote function and it did not work out.
NP.
NP01 This is what is perplexing me. I have a Digitrax system! It seems it's more related to the Tsunami itself though, where each time it hears Speed Step 0, it shuts down the prime mover. It's is very irritating as I don't want engines power down at red lights and station stops! I just need to schedule some time on a workday to call Soundtraxx. NP.
This is what is perplexing me. I have a Digitrax system! It seems it's more related to the Tsunami itself though, where each time it hears Speed Step 0, it shuts down the prime mover. It's is very irritating as I don't want engines power down at red lights and station stops! I just need to schedule some time on a workday to call Soundtraxx.
Well, I can't say for sure, but it certainly sounds as though you have some small value in CV 113. If you have a value of 1 in there, the sounds will go silent in 1 X 0.25 seconds if the Tech Manual is to be believed.
When you are bringing the engine to a stop, do you have any of the functions (headlight, for example) still on? According to the Manual the sounds should not stop if any of the functions are on.
[quote user="rrinker"]
All that OpSw setting does is make the default selection for a new loco use 128 speed steps, that should have no effect on anything related to the sound starting up. If someone's messed with that you could have some serious problems selecting and runnign ANY loco regardless of decoder ....[/quote]
Yeah I was too excited.
[quote user="rrinker"] You COULD set OpSw 14 to Closed to disable loco purging ... [/quote]
I have done this now. Home layout with only 4 engines presently so should be OK. This should help, if I carefully I stop everything at Speed Step 1 and use speed tables to set speed step 1 voltage to 0.
rrinker ... Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. ...
... Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. ...
All that OpSw setting does is make the default selection for a new loco use 128 speed steps, that should have no effect on anything related to the sound starting up. If someone's messed with that you could have some serious problems selecting and runnign ANY loco regardless of decoder, because you can use those switches to put the system into a default of Motorolo Trinary mode, or 14 speed steps (28/128 work the same so other than having fewer speed steps, a loco with CV29 set to 28/128 will function correctly either way).
You COULD set OpSw 14 to Closed to disable loco purging, which means that once selected the loco will always remain connected in the command station memory, and thus packets will always be sent to it,keeping the sound on - however if you have many locos you will quickly fill the slos and get a FULL or Slot Max error, so this is NOT recommended.
They really need to just make the startup and shutdown a function button. Everyone else does that, maybe if we all complain loudly enough, Soundtraxx will make the change. It's a method that will work on ALL DCC systems and there would really be no need to worry about timeout settings - which IS different between DCC systems, since Digitrax continues to send packets tot eh decoder that is stopped until it is dispatched and then purged from the command station memory, whereas NCE stops sending packets once you stop a loco. This whole e-stop/step 1 business is hokey.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
CNR378, you got me really excited. I dropped my 2-week old and ran to the basement and set 21/22/23 to t/t/t. No effect . It made so much sense because at some point my digitrax throttle started behaving a bit different in that no engine moves until the rotary dial passes the "1" indication on the throttle. (Note I am using a DCS51 throttle and don't have a DT4xx with electronic display of speed step.) I thought this behavior occurred because somehow the system got programmed into 14 step.
I believe when I had only 1 engine, the sound behaved normally. Also it is normal (ie idle continues indefinitely at Spped Step 0) on my Bachman Spectrum 4-6-0 which is also factory equipped with a Tsunami.
Jacktal, I will try your trick. But I suspect an issue still because when I leave my loco at Speed Step 1, a while after switching it quits idling.
I have found that happens when in 14 step mode. By setting OpSW 21/22/23 on the command station to default (T) cured it for my club (OpSW 21 must be 'T").
gandydancer19 I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
I have been reading this thread keenly as I have a similar issue. I have Athearn-Genesis factory installed Tsunamis on two locos: a GP15 and an SD70. In both cases, the above is not true- as soon as I go to speed step zero, the loco initiates a shut down sequence and shuts down. I have played with CV11, CV113 and CV 116. Nothing seems to change- except bit 5 on CV 116. Bit 4 on CV116 has NO impact, the loco starts moving before start sequence is finished. I am running a Zephyr Extra.
Any thoughts?
NP
Jacktal wrote:
How can I have the engine start-up with speed step 1 (bit 5) and keep idling without moving after the start-up sequence is complete (bit 4)?My un-tested solution is to set CV67=0 so that no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1 and then re-design the speed curve to compensate for the change. Would this work?I think so...I'll know for sure next week.
- Yes, this works as this is what I am doing on my NCE system.
Then Jacktal also wrote:
However,having any single function (headlight,bell,etc) automatically initiating the engine start-up sequence is not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'd like is being able to start the engine independently from any other function and let the decoder's last command memory keep the loco idling (simulating engine warm-up) indefinitely if I wish to while I use my handheld for other loco(s). So giving the throttle knob a click to start the engine,though not perfect,seems satisfactory to me. But then,only testing will confirm...
- Again, yes. I start the engine using speed step one, then go back down to speed step zero. The engine keeps idling, and I can move on to another loco with the throttle.
Then you wrote:
Now, how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down? Something else to think about....
- On the NCE system, pressing E-stop once stops the train on the throttle that is being used. Pressing E-stop two or three times will shut down the whole layout.
On the NCE throttles, you can remap the functions of different buttons. Not sure about the throttles of other DCC systems.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
selector I haven't really read into this thread except to get the general gist. I see that you are discussing CV116 in a Tsunami decoder variant? It so happens that CV116 is the CV for controlling 'chuff rate' in a steam locomotive decoder of the Soundtraxx Tsunami variants. It may mean nothing at all as far as generalizing the intent of the CV across diesel vs. steam, but I thought I'd mention it. CV116 can be adjusted in value to eventually match the cyclic turning of the main crank on a steamer so that there are the requisite four chuffs per revolution. Crandell
I haven't really read into this thread except to get the general gist. I see that you are discussing CV116 in a Tsunami decoder variant? It so happens that CV116 is the CV for controlling 'chuff rate' in a steam locomotive decoder of the Soundtraxx Tsunami variants. It may mean nothing at all as far as generalizing the intent of the CV across diesel vs. steam, but I thought I'd mention it. CV116 can be adjusted in value to eventually match the cyclic turning of the main crank on a steamer so that there are the requisite four chuffs per revolution.
Crandell
CV116 does a bunch of different stuff and in the diesel flavor is called Engine Exhaust Control. I don't know why they hide things here that seem not to be relevant to that title, including notch rate and auto start enable (see page 68 http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tsunami%20Diesel%20Technical%20Reference_1.13.pdf). Nothing about chuffs.
I haven't looked at the steam equivalent to this manual, but I think I'd be pertty safe in assuming that there's nothing in there about engine notches, unless they are related to the Johnson bar.
Hi Guys,
Very interesting thread. I have had a Digitrax Big Boy since the mid 90's, but only last month bought my first sound decoder, Tsunami TSU 1000 for a GP 9.
I am learning how to program it using Decoder Pro, a very worthwhile investment. The older hand controlers (throttles) only have 5 function buttons, so I am limited there, but all have a stop button.
One of the controllers acts as the command station and if that stop button is pushed it shuts down the whole layout. If a stop button is pushed on any of the other controllers which are controlling the Tsunami equipped loco, it only shuts down the engine sound. Turning the speed control 1 step starts the engine startup sequence. I have bell, and horn sounds set on automatic as well as brake squeal.
I will keep expermenting.
Jacktal It may seem strange indeed but it's not any worse than pushing a "start" button.Now,how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down?Something else to think about....
It may seem strange indeed but it's not any worse than pushing a "start" button.Now,how can one initiate the shut down sequence without pressing the emergency stop button and shut the whole layout down?Something else to think about....
I have NCE, and the way it works for me is that if I push the e-stop button once with the loco stopped the loco will shut down. I have to push that button (I believe) 3 times for the layout to shut down. This is not a problem for me, unless my hand stutters. However, there is a member of our club who has a condition that makes pushing any button a challange. Pushing that button once would be problematical for him.
Also, as Randy Rinker reminds us, not all handsets have the e-stop capability.
I wonder if there is a way to re-task one of the unused function buttons to function as the e-stop?
I was speaking to a friend last night about how he'd like all this to work. I think he said that he wanted the engine to stop in the yard with the headlight off, and continue to have the motor running indefinitely. But then he wanted the engine to not re-start if there was a momentary short. Although I haven't had time to look at all the CVs, I don't think he can have this happen.
I'm afraid that there is no way to make everyone happy.
Hello Jack, thanks for the infos on the 2013 Open House in Trois-Rivières, please keep us informed.
Now going back to the original topic, I agree I have to go one notch on the throttle to get the engine at the start up sequence and not the idling but I immediately go back to Zero and the engine goes on idle.
IMO it's not the way it should be but it's better than selecting the loco and having it immediately go on idle....
Serge
I understand what you mean...and that got my gears spinning again.In this specific case,I guess having an "engine start" function key would be the only solution that would please everyone but then we'd lose a function key for some other feature.
Right now,I can't test my theory but as soon as I'll be able to do it,I'll let you know how it worked out.And yes,I'll give your idea a try too.However,having any single function (headlight,bell,etc) automatically initiating the engine start-up sequence is not exactly what I'm looking for.What I'd like is being able to start the engine independently from any other function and let the decoder's last command memory keep the loco idling (simulating engine warm-up) indefinitely if I wish to while I use my handheld for other loco(s).So giving the throttle knob a click to start the engine,though not perfect,seems satisfactory to me.But then,only testing will confirm...
One good option would be that,using manual notching,just pressing the notching + knob (F9) would initiate the start-up sequence even at speed step 0 and then notching - (F10) could shut the engine off.I suspect it doesn't but I certainly will give it a try too.....
Jacktal With bit 5=0,I believe that the engine will move forward once the engine start-up sequence is complete,if it does,I'll try setting CV67 to 0 so no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
With bit 5=0,I believe that the engine will move forward once the engine start-up sequence is complete,if it does,I'll try setting CV67 to 0 so no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1.
Looking back through the posts on this topic I believe the the OP, Scribbelt, already has determined that what you are saying is correct. He was told by Soundtraxx to put a value of 7 into CV 116. I guess that value got him the result he was looking for. And I do believe that the engine will move at step 1 unless you have the CV for that step adjusted to a low enough value such that the resulting voltage to the loco is not enough to turn the motor.
But I consider this solution unsatisfactory. In my opinion one should be able to start the loco without having to advance the throttle. If I remember correctly, that was what the OP originally desired.
So right now it appears to me that the only way to have this occur is to use the emergency stop cab function to shut down the engine, and then press any function to get the loco to restart. I know Randy believes this to be impractical because some of the various "operator" handsets don't have this function. So I had to laugh a little when I read on page 43 of the Tsunami users Guide ( http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Users%20Guide%20Diesel.pdf) "Setting CV 116 between 1 and 15 enables Automatic Engine Notching Mode. Automatic notching causes the engine RPMs to change in proportion to the throttle setting. Pressing Emergency Stop will cause the engine to shut
"Setting CV 116 between 1 and 15 enables Automatic Engine Notching Mode. Automatic notching causes the engine RPMs to change in proportion to the throttle setting. Pressing Emergency Stop will cause the engine to shut
down."
With my NCE system I know that if I use the e-stop function to shut down a loco it will sit there quiet until I press a function key(headlight). At that time the loco will start but I will still be a speed step zero. I suggested to someone that he try this in conjunction with setting CV 113, the Quite Mode Timeout Period CV, to a small value. The instructions state that after a period of time the loco should shut down and remain silent until it is addressed. When addressed, it should go through the start up cycle. The person reported back that he had tried this and the loco shut down as advertised, but then started up again. That individual had a Digitrax system.
In one of his posts, Randy mentioned that some DCC systems polled all decoders in use continuously, while others apparently only polled a decoder when the system wanted the decoder to do something. He also said that the way to stop a decoder from being polled was to dispatch the loco from the system. Since I don't have Digitrax, I'm not sure exactly what this means, but that's probably not important to the issue.
If someone with a Digitrax system is willing to experiment, what I'd like them to try is to set CV 113 to a small value. Stop the engine and turn off all the functions. Then while waiting for the engine to shut down dispatch the loco. What hopefully will happen is that the loco will shut down and sit quietly until such time as you select that loco for operation again.
If that works, maybe that will eliminate the need for using e-stop to get the loco to shut down, the engine will not restart until selected, and it will not be necessary to use speed step 1 as the initial input to get your motor running (headout on the highway, looking for adventure...........ummmm, sorry).
If anyone tries this, let me know. Inquiring minds need to know.
Aside to Randy...yes, I did specify the incorrect value for bit 4. I meant to say that bit 5 had a value of 32. I can't count my fingures correctly at 1 in the morning.