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Starting Engine Sound

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Starting Engine Sound
Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 9:03 AM

Hello, I have a  HO GP7 equipped with Micro-Tsunami TSU-750 (EMD 567) and every time I select it , the engine sound is already on idle.

I have a  Digitrax system and would like to know if there would be a Tsunami CV value to modify this "Engine Idle"  to "Engine Starting" sound.

Thank you.

Serge

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Monday, July 23, 2012 11:56 AM

Yes there is a CV for that.  However, you will have to look in the manual for it as I don't remember what the CV number is.  (I use JMRI's Decoder Pro for programming my decoders.)  The manual can be downloaded from the Soundtraxx web site.  Look for something like 'engine starts up at speed step one'.

I have an NCE system and here is the way it usually works for me:

1.  When the layout is turned on the loco is silent.  When speed step one is reached on the throttle, the loco start up sound begins.  (I have my locos programmed to start moving at speed step two.)

2.  If the loco engine sound is in idle but stopped, if you press emergency stop, the loco engine shut down sound starts.  Next time you crack the throttle, the start up sound starts again.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 23, 2012 12:06 PM

Try setting CV113 to a value other than zero, for instance a value of 1.  When you stop the engine, turn off all functions (horn, bell, lights, etc).  After a short period of time, the engine sounds should stop.  At that point, according to the Tsunami Diesel Technical Reference ( http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tsunami%20Diesel%20Technical%20Reference_1.13.pdf ) the sounds should not re-start until the loco is addressed.  What I don't know is if the sounds start with the start-up sequence, or with the idle sound.  If you try this, please let me know.

I have NCE.  And I found that I could shut down the engine sounds by pressing the emergency stop key.  At that point the engine would re-start with the start-up sequence when I selected one of the functions, for example turning on the headlight.  It is my understanding that the Digitrax systems also have an ability to do the same process.  Unfortunately I don't know what that is.

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Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 12:27 PM

Hello Elmer and Maxman,thank you for the infos, I will modify the CV related to the engine start; make a few tests and let you know the outcome.

Have a nice day.

Serge

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, July 23, 2012 12:43 PM

 My one Tsunami works on my Digitrax system the way Elmer described. When I power on my layout, it is silent. When I address it, it plays the startup sounds and goes to idle. I never fooled around with anythign other than address, volume, and reverb/equalizer settings. CV113 is the one to adjust though. Usually it's the other systems that need this changed - Digitrax always sends packets to any active address, other systems sometimes only send packets if you change something, liek speed or a function, so the decoder stops seeing packets addressed to it and shuts off.

Using e-stop to shut it down is highly impractical, although you can configure your throttle to use only a local e-stop (stops only YOUR selected locos) - and the UT series throttles don't have e-stop.

                   --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 12:52 PM

Hello Randy, thank you for the additional infos.

I will give you an update as soon as I fiddle around with CV 113.

Serge

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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 23, 2012 12:57 PM

rrinker

Using e-stop to shut it down is highly impractical, although you can configure your throttle to use only a local e-stop (stops only YOUR selected locos) - and the UT series throttles don't have e-stop.

Randy, I'm curious why you say this.  Other than the fact that the UT series doesn't have e-stop, if the throttle can be configured to stop the selected loco I'm not sure what is impractical.

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Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 2:01 PM

Hello everyone, I fiddled around with CV 113, and no changes other than the sound came on when the loco was throttled to go forwards or backwards.

Now I've created a problem, when I put the power back on the tracks (the loco which I tried to modify CV 113) the engine starts up automatically even if I didn't select the loco... Only that loco none of the others on the tracks.

Any ideas how to correct this?

Thank you.

Serge

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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 23, 2012 2:09 PM

scribbelt

Hello everyone, I fiddled around with CV 113, and no changes other than the sound came on when the loco was throttled to go forwards or backwards.

Now I've created a problem, when I put the power back on the tracks (the loco which I tried to modify CV 113) the engine starts up automatically even if I didn't select the loco... Only that loco none of the others on the tracks.

Any ideas how to correct this?

Thank you.

I thought that was what it was doing before.  Change CV 113 back to zero and see if you go back to the original condition.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, July 23, 2012 2:56 PM

maxman

 rrinker:

Using e-stop to shut it down is highly impractical, although you can configure your throttle to use only a local e-stop (stops only YOUR selected locos) - and the UT series throttles don't have e-stop.

 

Randy, I'm curious why you say this.  Other than the fact that the UT series doesn't have e-stop, if the throttle can be configured to stop the selected loco I'm not sure what is impractical.

Well that's the amin one - you simply can't do it on the throttle commonly handed to regular operators. That's Digitrax, not sure about other systems with less than the premium throttle, which is really something not needed by everyone running trains. I just find it odd that Soundtraxx decided to use the e-stop packets to do a shutdown, everyone else has an F-key for that. Maybe a background workign with many manufacrutering clients, where the term "e-stop" means shut it ALL down, not just, shut down what's in front of me, has my internal interpretation of the term different than other people. On DT throttles, Digitrax lets you set it up either way, again not sure how configurable it is on other systems, but if any of them ONLY allow a global e-stop, then they can never shut down a Tsunami, else the entire layout will shut off. This is a minor nit to pick, really, since I rarely run the shutdown sequence, and it's way down the list compared to lacking a CV6 mid CV so you don;t have to use speed tables all the time.

                 --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 5:05 PM

Hello once again, update on the mysterious loco behavior.

I called Customer Service at Soundtrax and they had me change CV 116; that fixed the problem

CV 116 set at 07. (Engine starts up when throttle is activated 1 notch)

CV 113 set at 00. (no shut off delay)

So now when I put power on the tracks my loco is quiet until I select it and once I activate the throttle one notch the engine starts up and will run on  idle until I mute it.

Hope this sheds a little light on the subject and thank you all for your help.

BTW: Excellent and friendly service at Soundtrax they took the time to explain the step by step procedures .

Have a nice day.

Serge

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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 23, 2012 5:58 PM

Thank you for the feed back.

Who would think that they'd hide that in a CV called engine exhaust control?

One of these days I'm going to figure out how they arrive at the value that gets put into a CV.  That CV has 7 bits, and the auto-start enable is in bit 5.  I always thought that they added up all the turned on bit values in a CV to get to the final value.  So if bit 5 has a value of 32, if it is "turned on" and everything else is off, I would think that the value that went into CV 116 should be 32.  I'm just not getting this.

Maybe Randy can explain.

Anyway, thanks again.

Regards

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Posted by Jacktal on Monday, July 23, 2012 6:43 PM

Setting CV116=7 means they gave bit 5 a value of 0 but they kept bit 0,1 and 2 active wich control throttle notching.They could have also set bit 4 to 1 wich should prevent the loco from moving before the engine is started.Then the CV value would be 23.

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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 23, 2012 9:00 PM

Jacktal

Setting CV116=7 means they gave bit 5 a value of 0 but they kept bit 0,1 and 2 active wich control throttle notching.They could have also set bit 4 to 1 wich should prevent the loco from moving before the engine is started.Then the CV value would be 23.

Thanks for that part of the explanation.  But I do have additional questions.  The manual has the following information concerning bits 0 through 3 for that C:

Bits 0-3: AN0:AN3, Engine Notch Rate

0 = Manual Notching, engine RPMs are increased/ decreased with functions F9 and F10 respectively.

1-15 = Engine RPMs increase every 1-15 speed steps per setting

They have the first 4 bits labled AN0, AN1, AN2, and AN3.  So to get a total CV value of 7 then bits 0 through 2 have to be active as you say.  But that 1-15 speed steps per setting has me confused.  Sounds like this is variable, but I don't see what number you'd put into the CV to get the variation, unless that's describe elsewhere.

In addition, I don't see how bit 0 and bits 1 and 2 can be active at the same time, s that would seem to lead to a contradiction.

Any asistance to help me understand is appreciated!

Thanks

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Posted by NSDash09 on Monday, July 23, 2012 9:12 PM

It sounds like you have the issue sorted out. I personally prefer the use of  F functions to start up and shut down. With a large engine yard i find it annoying to have every locomotive start up the instant the power is turned on. If you were really concerned I would suggest Loksound decoders. They use F8 for start up and shut down and the sound quality is very good. On my layout I only install loksound decoders although if the locomotive comes with a tsunami in it I am currently leaving that in.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, July 23, 2012 9:26 PM

Bits refers to a binary digit. with 3 bits, you cna have values from 0-7. With 4 b4 bits, 0-15

0000 = 0

0001 = 1

0010 = 2

0011 = 3

0100 = 4

1000 = 8

1111 = 15

I skipped some, but it's the same pattern. Any combination is valid.

                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by scribbelt on Monday, July 23, 2012 10:28 PM

Thanks guys for the extra infos on Bits and things; I'm sorry but I didn't understand a single thing. I'm a hands on person and every step of the way has to be clearly explained to me, that's why I called Soundtrax so they can guide me trough.

Maybe one day if I meet a fellow model train hobbyist who is DCC savvy, he can give me a crash course on the subject of Bits and Steps, and so on.

Thank you.

Serge

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Posted by Jacktal on Monday, July 23, 2012 11:13 PM

I'm only starting to understand how CV's get configured and it has added a few gray hairs amongst the ones I have left,but I find it challenging and a lot of fun too.One has to go back to the beginning of the Soundtraxx manual to have a full explanation on how bits are figured out.

The way I understand it,a feature may use only one bit but in some cases may use more,especially when the featured function is a user setting.In this case,CV116,bits 0 through 3 can be used to set throttle notching at either of four different settings.In this particular case they stopped at level 3,one short of maximum.

Bit 0=1,bit1=1 and bit 2=1 so that one gets these respective totals of 1+2+4=7.If they had elected to set bit3=1,they would have had a total of 8 to add to the previous total meaning 7+8=15.

My steamers don't have this "throttle notching" feature so I haven't tested it but I understand that with diesels,you can increase or decrease throttle with F9&F10 on top of the throttle knob and CV116 sets the increments by wich the loco react to either F9 or F10.If I'm wrong,please someone correct me.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:46 AM

Jacktal

I'm only starting to understand how CV's get configured and it has added a few gray hairs amongst the ones I have left,but I find it challenging and a lot of fun too.One has to go back to the beginning of the Soundtraxx manual to have a full explanation on how bits are figured out.

The way I understand it,a feature may use only one bit but in some cases may use more,especially when the featured function is a user setting.In this case,CV116,bits 0 through 3 can be used to set throttle notching at either of four different settings.In this particular case they stopped at level 3,one short of maximum.

Bit 0=1,bit1=1 and bit 2=1 so that one gets these respective totals of 1+2+4=7.If they had elected to set bit3=1,they would have had a total of 8 to add to the previous total meaning 7+8=15.

Re: the gray hairs..............me too.

Concerning the bits, I think I sort of follow you on that also.  But to get to the total of 7 it would mean that bits 0, 1, and 2 are active as you say.  But bit 0, which is AN0 according to the manual, is for manual notching with the function keys.  Bits 1 and 2 seem to be for automatic notching based on speed steps.  So I don't see how bit 0 can be active with either bit 1 or 2 active, unless it means that the auto notching will occur but can be over ridden by the function keys.

The engine rpms increase every 1-15 speed steps per setting also has me confused.

Finally, the OPs original issue was that the loco would " start automatically".  The correction to this would seem to involve bit 5.  But bit 5 cannot be active since the total value in the CV is 7.

I do see according to the manual the the default value for CV 116 is 39, which means that bits 0, 1, 2, and 4 should initially be active if I've done the math correctly.

Like I said, just trying to understand!!!

Regards  

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Posted by jalajoie on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:05 AM

maxman

Re: the gray hairs..............me too.

Concerning the bits, I think I sort of follow you on that also.  But to get to the total of 7 it would mean that bits 0, 1, and 2 are active as you say.  But bit 0, which is AN0 according to the manual, is for manual notching with the function keys.  Bits 1 and 2 seem to be for automatic notching based on speed steps.  So I don't see how bit 0 can be active with either bit 1 or 2 active, unless it means that the auto notching will occur but can be over ridden by the function keys.

The engine rpms increase every 1-15 speed steps per setting also has me confused.

Finally, the OPs original issue was that the loco would " start automatically".  The correction to this would seem to involve bit 5.  But bit 5 cannot be active since the total value in the CV is 7.

I do see according to the manual the the default value for CV 116 is 39, which means that bits 0, 1, 2, and 4 should initially be active if I've done the math correctly.

Like I said, just trying to understand!!!

Regards  

My interpretation of the manual is different. The way I see it, CV116 Bits 0 to 3 inclusive determine the behavior of "Notching" The range being 0 to 15.

 A value of CV116=0 means Manual notching is enable.  (Bit 0 to 3 are off). Here i skip bit 4 to 7 for clarity.

For automatic notching  the range of CV116 is 1 to 15. A value of CV116=1 means bit 0 only is on. A value of CV116=2 means only bit 1 is on. A value of CV116=3 means only bit 1 and bit 0 are on and so on, till you reach a value of CV116=15 where all bits from 0 to 3 are on.

 The default value of CV116 is 39. This means automatic notching is set to 7 and the prime mover starts up when power is supplied to the track. Bits 0 - 1 - 2 and 5 are on, Bits 3 - 4- 6 and 7 are off.

 

Jack W.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:35 AM

jalajoie

My interpretation of the manual is different. The way I see it, CV116 Bits 0 to 3 inclusive determine the behavior of "Notching" The range being 0 to 15.

 A value of CV116=0 means Manual notching is enable.  (Bit 0 to 3 are off). Here i skip bit 4 to 7 for clarity.

For automatic notching  the range of CV116 is 1 to 15. A value of CV116=1 means bit 0 only is on. A value of CV116=2 means only bit 1 is on. A value of CV116=3 means only bit 1 and bit 0 are on and so on, till you reach a value of CV116=15 where all bits from 0 to 3 are on.

 The default value of CV116 is 39. This means automatic notching is set to 7 and the prime mover starts up when power is supplied to the track. Bits 0 - 1 - 2 and 5 are on, Bits 3 - 4- 6 and 7 are off.

 

Jack, thanks for the explanation.  The only problem I see is that the OP's original issue was that he wanted the engine to go through the start up sequence when he addressed it, not when power was supplied to the track.  Since I am assuming that he now has the decoder doing what he wants, the numbers you come up with would not seem to satisfy this as you say that the prime mover starts up when power is supplied to the track.

I think I'll go into the basement now and strike parts of my body with a hammer.  Possibly that will help me understand.

Thanks again.

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Posted by jalajoie on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:50 AM

Maxman I think I confused you when I spoke about the value of CV116=39. This if the factory default not what the OP was instructed to use. To achieve what the OP was looking for CV116 Bit 5 must be set to 0 hence a value of CV116=7 was suggested by Soundtraxx service dept. Setting CV116 bit 5 off enable the prime mover to start up at speed step1. In addition the Soundtraxx rep suggested to set CV113=0. This enable the sound to turn on a few seconds after power is turned on.  

Jack W.

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Posted by Jacktal on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:28 AM

I have a pair of TSU-KT1000 on order that will be installed in a pair of brand new Kato's.Seller has confirmed shipping over the weekend so I expect them by next week.So until then,all I say is pure untested theory out of my sometimes distorted mind.So if I'm wrong,please leave the stones on the ground.

Preparing for the install,I spent some time on Youtube watching Tsunami FDL-16 demos and I have noticed a feature that a few have...the engine leaps forward a few scale feet instantly upon initiating engine start-up sequence...not too prototypical.What causes this?My un-verified conclusion is that giving the throttle a single notch does initiate engine start-up sequence but also,obviously,sends juice to the motor.

Thus the reason for CV116.Bits 0 through 3 get throttle increments set for manual (F9 & F10),at least that's what I think it is.Then bit 4 comes in..."engine RPM interlock".When set at a value of 1,the manual says "when manual engine control is enabled,locomotive will not move until engine starts".So far so good I thought.

Then bit 5 comes in too.If set with a value of 1,engine start-up sequence initiates with track power,wich I don't want.Then if set at a value of 0,"prime mover starts up at speed step 1" the manual says so I should be happy...not yet convinced so...if I leave the throttle at speed step 1,the decoder will keep sending milliamps of current to the motor even if the loco doesn't move,an undesirable consequence.If I bring the throttle back to 0,will it start the shut down sequence?

How can I have the engine start-up with speed step 1 (bit 5) and keep idling without moving after the start-up sequence is complete (bit 4)?My un-tested solution is to set CV67=0 so that no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1 and then re-design the speed curve to compensate for the change.Would this work?I think so...I'll know for sure next week.

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Posted by scribbelt on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:38 AM

Hello, you guys seem to have a ball trying to figure out all theses bits and pieces...

I'm trying really hard to follow you but in high school math was not my forte.

Tough I would really like to configure the equalizer, to get a better sounding horn with reverb etc. I downloaded the Tsunami Diesel Manual and it's still quite complicated for me to understand the terminology.

I can program the loco address and change the horn sounds, that's easy to understand for me. I like the KISS method: Keep It Simple and Stupid.

If there would be a DCC  seminar (decoder instal and programming) in city near by I would gladly attend it, I'm always eager to improve my skills.

Have a nice day.

Serge

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Posted by jalajoie on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:15 AM

Serge that would be a neat idea but I am afraid difficult to put on. At the club in Trois-Rivieres we have a member that attended a seminar at Soundtraxx factory, he owns a hobby shop in Drummondville Qc. Will he be willing to set up such a seminar I don't know. What about the distances involved to participate. As an example jacktal yourself an me we live rather far apart to make it practical.

Jack W.

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Posted by jalajoie on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:18 AM

Jacktal

Preparing for the install,I spent some time on Youtube watching Tsunami FDL-16 demos and I have noticed a feature that a few have...the engine leaps forward a few scale feet instantly upon initiating engine start-up sequence...not too prototypical.What causes this?My un-verified conclusion is that giving the throttle a single notch does initiate engine start-up sequence but also,obviously,sends juice to the motor.

Thus the reason for CV116.Bits 0 through 3 get throttle increments set for manual (F9 & F10),at least that's what I think it is.Then bit 4 comes in..."engine RPM interlock".When set at a value of 1,the manual says "when manual engine control is enabled,locomotive will not move until engine starts".So far so good I thought.

Then bit 5 comes in too.If set with a value of 1,engine start-up sequence initiates with track power,wich I don't want.Then if set at a value of 0,"prime mover starts up at speed step 1" the manual says so I should be happy...not yet convinced so...if I leave the throttle at speed step 1,the decoder will keep sending milliamps of current to the motor even if the loco doesn't move,an undesirable consequence.If I bring the throttle back to 0,will it start the shut down sequence?

How can I have the engine start-up with speed step 1 (bit 5) and keep idling without moving after the start-up sequence is complete (bit 4)?My un-tested solution is to set CV67=0 so that no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1 and then re-design the speed curve to compensate for the change.Would this work?I think so...I'll know for sure next week.

I think Randy "rinker" is not very found of Tsunami motor control, maybe he could chip in on this matter.

CV116 bit 0 to 3 is not for manual notching only. A value of CV116=0 will enable manual notching while a value of CV116 of 1 to 15 will enable automatic notching.

CV67 if for speed curve, can you verify your assumption? Forget about that, I misread you.

Jack W.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:55 AM

Jacktal

How can I have the engine start-up with speed step 1 (bit 5) and keep idling without moving after the start-up sequence is complete (bit 4)?My un-tested solution is to set CV67=0 so that no current is sent to the motor on speed step 1 and then re-design the speed curve to compensate for the change.Would this work?I think so...I'll know for sure next week.

So far as I'm concerned it should be possible to get the motor to start without going to speed step 1.  That's where I thought that CV 113 (quiet mode) kicked in.  There it says that after the sounds turn off they won't start again until the loco is addressed.

I have NCE, and I know that if I shut the sound off using the large hand set e-stop button the loco will sit there quietly until I ask it to do something.  And if I do something like asking the headlight to come on, the motor will start and the engine will not move until I start increasing the speed steps above zero.

Maybe this has something to do wih a statement Randy made about Digitrax addressing decoders all the time, while some other systems do not. Of course I might have misunderstood that also.

Now, back to the basement.  Where did I leave that hammer?

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:59 PM

 I don't think it sends anything to the motor if configured to not move until the startup sounds play.

If you have a DT400/402 throttle on Digitrax, you can set the Stop button to send a locla e-stop instead of global, in the throttle's configuration. It's in the manual. Local e-stop means it will only send the e-stop to the locos selected on the DT throttle you are hitting Stop on, everyone else's trains will continue to run. Global e-stop causes the entire layout to stop. If you configure to local e-stop, you should find the Tsunami will work the same way it does for NCE users - hit the Stop and the loco should shutdown. I do have a feelign it will restart unless you also release it, because as long as the loco is selected on either throttle knob, packets will be sent to it - there will be no packet timeout comign into play because there always will eb packets. Only speed 0 locos that are released from the throttle will be purged from the command station which will finally stop packets going to the address.

 I know one of the other - QSI maybe - comes defaulted to expect packets, so NCE users have them stop makign noise if they aren't actively controlling it, and a CV needs to be changed so that it doesn't turn off. Tsunamis are just the opposite.

                      --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by scribbelt on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:23 PM

Hello Jack, I know for a fact that in Québec there are no big train shows like in Ottawa where I met a lot of Model Railroaders from all over Canada and the USA.

So far all the train show I attended where in Ontario except one in Laval.

I don't mind the distance if it's worth it. Maybe one day, you never know; let's keep our fingers crossed...

Have a nice day.

Serge

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:45 PM

 

One of the things that nobody has mentioned is JMRI Decoder Pro. This is a free program that runs on a computer. The computer must be connected to the DCC system. For Digitrax, the computer would get connected to the LocoNet by a LocoBuffer-USB or PR3 / 4.

What Decoder Pro does is allow you to program your decoder using the computer very easily.  It shows you a menu of major items with tabs that show the different pages of things that can be adjusted or set in a decoder. Instead of saying the CV number and asking for a value, it says something like: Start speed, and then has a slider to set the value; Medium speed, that has a slider; and Top speed with a slider. All setting can be configured that way. This makes setting speed tables and reverb settings really easy. As a bonus, it does have a CV table where you could set the value by number if you really want to do that.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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