For troubleshooting a short there is nothing more simple than a 12 volt auto taillight bulb in series with the DCC buss wires at the command station. Find the short, the lamp goes out.
rrinker Except that continuity tests are needed here and the rrampmeter doesn't do that. Presence of voltage is SOMETIMES the same. Plus it's 3 bucks vs a lot more. And if there's a Harbor Freight nearby, you can walk in and pick one up, no waiting. --Randy
Except that continuity tests are needed here and the rrampmeter doesn't do that. Presence of voltage is SOMETIMES the same. Plus it's 3 bucks vs a lot more. And if there's a Harbor Freight nearby, you can walk in and pick one up, no waiting.
--Randy
Randy,
You are right. That meter is a lot cheaper than the RRampMeter. But, at this point, Capt. Grimek is going to have to learn how to use the meter and he still hasn't solved his problem. For now, my advice is take down the PSXs and the wiring and start all over. If CG does that, he will find the problem quick enough.
Rich
Alton Junction
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker The $2.99 one at Harbor Freight is plenty adequate for any model railroad work. --Randy
The $2.99 one at Harbor Freight is plenty adequate for any model railroad work.
I agree that an RRampmeter is over-kill for most people. However, for someone with a limited knowledge in things electrical, it seemed to me that getting a standard digital multi-meter would only add confusion by trying to troubleshoot with it, and learning to use it at the same time.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
The thing to do is take a step back and relax. The overall system may seem an incredibly complicated thing that scares the bejesus out of you, but it really is made up of multiple simple elements. Each element has a common at some point - the track segments to the PSX's, the PSX's to the command station. Each chunk, be that a track section, or a given PSX, is independent of all the others except at that common point.
Which brings up a very critical part - at NO POINT should there be wires from the command station extending past the PSX's. The Feeds from the track connections on the DCS should go to the PSX's (and the PSX-AR) and NOTHING else.
Likewise, the outputs of a given PSX section should go to the tracks ONLY between insulated sections. One feeder ont he wrong side of a gap (if it's not that the gap has closed) is enough to cause problems like this.
This is where a regular meter works better than the RRAmpmeter - with the conenctions out of the PSXs disconnected, test continuity across each rail gap. It should ALWAYS be an open circuit. If there is continuity, either the gap has closed or you have a feeder from the wrong side connecting to that section's bus line. Step by step troubleshooting - it's not exactly a technical thing, ratehr it helps non-technical people solve technical problems.
MisterBeasley Capt. Grimek: I'm the artistic musician aesthetic type. It's obvious that no DCC owner can remain uneducated and...unpracticed...indefinitely! Albert Einstein was a talented violinist. The two often go hand in hand. It may simply be an undeveloped skill.
Capt. Grimek: I'm the artistic musician aesthetic type. It's obvious that no DCC owner can remain uneducated and...unpracticed...indefinitely!
I'm the artistic musician aesthetic type. It's obvious that no DCC owner can remain uneducated and...unpracticed...indefinitely!
Albert Einstein was a talented violinist. The two often go hand in hand. It may simply be an undeveloped skill.
Or not, I have not a lick of musical talent.
richhotrain At this stage, if I were the OP, I would do two things: 1. Tear it all down and start all over. 2. Submit a detailed track and wiring diagram for us to consider. After all, this has been going on for a week with no positive results. Rich
At this stage, if I were the OP, I would do two things:
1. Tear it all down and start all over.
2. Submit a detailed track and wiring diagram for us to consider.
After all, this has been going on for a week with no positive results.
I agree with myself. LOL
Capt. Grimek Thanks again Elmer and Randy. I'm gettin' to it. I have given thought to the R amp meter from Tony's.
Thanks again Elmer and Randy. I'm gettin' to it. I have given thought to the R amp meter from Tony's.
The RRampMeter is superb.
I have one built into my main control panel so I can read the output data screen at all times.
It is also portable in that it can be removed from its "permanent" position and used to test trouble spots locally on the layout.
Capt. Grimek I'm the artistic musician aesthetic type. It's obvious that no DCC owner can remain uneducated and...unpracticed...indefinitely!
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I held off because I wasn't sure I'd know what to do with it yet. I can tell NOW is the time to start learning more about electricity/electronics et. al.
I didn't realize about the sub-districts vs. power districts. I've re-read that section and will delve into some books once we find THIS time's problem.
I haven't had much luck learning anything "deep" from the Kalmbach books just the basics. Does Bruce Chubb's book have a lot of the detailed trouble shooting "cookbook" approach for beginners?
The ironic thing is that my own Dad was an electronics technician for ITT and his son inherited NONE of that from him! I'm the artistic musician aesthetic type. It's obvious that no DCC owner can remain uneducated and...unpracticed...indefinitely!
I'll report back if and when I locate the (or suspected) problem. Thanks tons.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Capt. Grimek Thanks very much Elmer. I'll go through your procedure. I appreciate the succinct, step by step directions. I'll start in the a.m. The system comes on ok unless I have one of those two locos on the track. I have to add the Big boy (MRC decoder) and the Mikado QSI decoder AFTER powering up the track and they'll run ok until there's a short via the decoder test. I'll then have to remove those two locos and do a cold start/reboot. Sometimes I have to access my loco via the throttle by pushing loco (button) twice. Sometimes the breaker will reset without having to reboot. With those two locos off the tracks the system kicks back on after 2 seconds. Do you think I shoud try increasing the output from the PSXs if I don't find any other fault? I could use a succinct direction as how to test my DCS 100 command station. I've done this by removing the track output wires and seeing the usual leds lit. Is there anything else I need to do or look for? You're right. I haven't yet lerned to use a multi-meter but I can see the day coming when I'll need to so I'll practice. STILL not understanding why
Thanks very much Elmer. I'll go through your procedure. I appreciate the succinct, step by step directions. I'll start in the a.m.
The system comes on ok unless I have one of those two locos on the track. I have to add the Big boy (MRC decoder) and the Mikado QSI decoder AFTER powering up the track and they'll run ok until there's a short via the decoder test. I'll then have to remove those two locos and do a cold start/reboot. Sometimes I have to access my loco via the throttle by pushing loco (button) twice. Sometimes the breaker will reset without having to reboot. With those two locos off the tracks the system kicks back on after 2 seconds.
Do you think I shoud try increasing the output from the PSXs if I don't find any other fault?
I could use a succinct direction as how to test my DCS 100 command station. I've done this by removing the track output wires and seeing the usual leds lit. Is there anything else I need to do or look for?
You're right. I haven't yet lerned to use a multi-meter but I can see the day coming when I'll need to so I'll practice.
STILL not understanding why
The day HAS arrived when you need a digital multimeter. With today's DCC systems and circuit breakers, a digital multimeter in your tool box is as essential as the X-acto knife. The multimeter lets you look at what is happening on your track and command station output. If you don't get one and learn how to use it, you might as well get duplicate components and a second DCC system to swap out every time you have a problem.To test the power output of the command station or any booster, you need to apply a load to it (on the track output connections) that will make it draw 5 amps. To do this, you will need an adjustable load resistor, or a bunch of automobile light bulbs, and an amp meter (multimeter) connected in series. Because you and many others don't have the electrical background, I would not recommend that you try it yourself. The adjustable load resistor is not going to be cheap, and a fire could result if everything is not done correctly. I don't know what the PSX output is set to, but I wouldn't set them any higher than 4.5 amps. Any higher and the command station will trip it's breaker.Do the PSX breakers have a manual reset option that you can wire a switch to? (Their forerunners did.) If it does, you may want to do that. The manual reset may work so you don't have to cold boot the layout all the time.But the heart of the matter is that with only the Mikado and Big Boy on the tracks, and when a short occurs, the system does not recover, so something is definitely wrong. Do all of the sub-power districts do the same thing with the two locomotives, or do they act differently?In that regard, I would set or reset the PSX's to the factory values however you have to do it, put the two locos on the tracks and then make it short, and see if it recovers by itself. If that doesn't work, remove the breakers all together, connecting the command station directly to the track, and test it (short) with the locomotives. (This is where booster output and circuit breaker wiring using terminal blocks comes in handy.) If all is well, the problem would seem to be with the circuit breakers. If the problem still exists, the problem would seem to be with the command station.If the problem is with the breakers, you can try playing around with the different settings. Of course you will have to read and study the manual to do that.Now, since the problem only occurs with the two locomotives, as far fetched as it may seem, it may be one or both of the locomotives causing the problem because they may be drawing too much current. In that regard, I would reset both to their factory values and then change their addresses. Then next thing to change would be to disable the DC mode in both of them, and test the layout again. How much current do they draw? Oh, I forgot, you don't have a multimeter. Can't help you there. Maybe Tony's RR Amp meter would be the one for you to get, since you need something for DCC only at this point and it seems fairly simple. See this link:
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/rrampmeter_appnotes.htmGet version III (3)
Hope this helps,
The PSX setting shouldn't matter. If there is nothing on the tracks then it shouldn't trip.
You could even remove the PSX's from the system and wire the booster directly to one section at a time.
Since a picture of the layout isn't possible how about a quick sketch including the basic wiring? Many times in the forums the problem is solved quickly after either of the 2 above is posted.
Springfield PA
Default setting according to PSX manual is 3.81 (cv49 value = 03). CV49 can be set up to 15, trip current 19.1 (anything over 10.2 amps require additions of heatsinks to the output transistors). If CV49=0, then the trip current jumpers on J6 are enabled. Use either the Jumpers or the CV setting, not both. If you use jumper setting, no jumper = 3.81amps. Jumper on J6, pin 1-2 = 1.27 amps. Jumper on 3-4 = 6.35 amps. Jumper on 1-2 + jumper on 3-4 = 8.89 amps. Hope this helps
Each PSX can be set to the maximum current value that it will allow before it trips. Your description of the problem only showing up with certain combinations of engines leads me to believe that the PSX is set too low, and the "inrush current" of powering up some engines is greater than what the PSX is set for.
As I recall, the procedure for setting the limit is in the manual. I'm not sure if you can read back the setting, but it would be nice to know what the PSX thinks it's supposed to cut out at.
Capt. Grimek I have a Super Chief Digitrax system using DT400R throttle. I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks. I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
I have a Super Chief Digitrax system using DT400R throttle.
I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks.
I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
That is an excerpt from the OP's initial post.
If his statement is accurate, he has been "running without issues for a long time but suddenly" he is experiencing short circuit indicators on his PSX's.
I don't know how the OP defines "a long time" but is it hours, days, weeks, months? No matter, the statement implies that everything was OK until suddenly...............................
So, what suddenly happened to sidetrack a perfectly operating layout?
The OP goes on to say that "the only NEW addition was an AR PSX board". If you take this statement literally, that all was fine for a long time until the OP added a new PSX, what would you conclude?
Bad PSX? Faulty wiring? Improperly positioned PSX?
Gotta be one of those three possibilities if all else that has been said is accurate.
gandydancer19 OK, I haven't been posting to this thread, but it seems like that after the number of days that the posts have been going on, you really need some help. So as an old retired electronics technician, I am going to try and give you a few pointers from my perspective. For the most part, you have been given good advice, but everything is going around in circles now.
OK, I haven't been posting to this thread, but it seems like that after the number of days that the posts have been going on, you really need some help. So as an old retired electronics technician, I am going to try and give you a few pointers from my perspective. For the most part, you have been given good advice, but everything is going around in circles now.
OK, I haven't been posting to this thread, but it seems like that after the number of days that the posts have been going on, you really need some help. So as an old retired electronics technician, I am going to try and give you a few pointers from my perspective. For the most part, you have been given good advice, but everything is going around in circles now.Now, the first thing I want to tell you is that you have ONE power district. It is one power district because you have only ONE command station / booster. Using circuit breakers as you are, you have SUB-power districts. That also means that one of your rails is common to all sub-power districts. The current you have available for your layout is 5 amps. No more. Therefore, the maximum number of sound locomotives you should be running on your layout is 10, with no lighted passenger cars. Any more than that and you are going to be shutting down.1. A short is the hardest problem to find, whether it be in electronics or just wiring.2. Stabbing in the dark trying to find shorts won't work. You need a plan.3. There is one shortcut that you can try first. Look at the last thing you added a wire to. If that isn't it, you need to start at the beginning with a plan.A. Since the AR is the last thing you connected, it is the first suspect. This was mentioned before, BUT THE THING YOU NEVER DID WAS TO COMPLETELY REMOVE IT. DO THAT NOW. It doesn't matter if it LOOKS like it is wired correctly, REMOVE IT.4. The basic plan is to disconnect EVERYTHING from the power source, and then connect one thing at a time until the problem occurs. That means all circuit breakers too.A. Remove all locomotives and lighted cars from the layout. B. As you are connecting things back up, start with one item, and test it using the quarter test or a direct shorting wire, then make sure it resets on it's own. 1) Start with the booster's circuit breaker with NO LOAD or circuit breakers connected.2) Then add the circuit breakers with no load or track connections and test by shorting their individual outputs one at a time, then all together. At no time should the booster shut down.C. As you start adding the track connections to the circuit breakers, read the voltage on the tracks at different places and make sure that any track that is not associated with that breaker is not being powered up. Then disconnect that breakers output and go to the next breakers output. Repeat the process until all breaker outputs have been checked.D. Next, connect each breakers output one at a time, again using the quarter test. Leave the outputs connected this time as you connect the next one and do the quarter test.5. Check the settings of the circuit breakers. If you are using a 5 amp booster, the circuit breakers should be set to less than 5 amps. You want the breakers to trip before the booster does.What the problem sounds like to me is that the current settings on the circuit breakers are too high, and the layout is drawing too much current, possibly due to too many locomotives and lighted passenger cars on the layout, and / or a wiring problem. (but you know this already) That is causing the booster / command station track power to shut down. I see this when you are causing a short on the layout, and then the recovery not happening automatically. A secondary cause could also be a fault in the booster / command station, and / or the power supply that is powering it. Since you said you have limited technical knowledge, checking the current output of the power supply and the command station / booster is probably beyond your capability, but that also needs to be done to eliminate those as causes.Hope all this helps.
If you look real close you might spot the problem waving at you. Pics are cheap.
Who ya gonna call?
Shortbusters!
Capt. Grimek One of the guys there agreed that dasiy chaining from the last PSX-1 into the AR sounded wrong so he agreed with what you've told me. I found one track that had a solder joint go and there was a gap on ONE rail only. I wasn't sure if that
One of the guys there agreed that dasiy chaining from the last PSX-1 into the AR sounded wrong so he agreed with what you've told me.
I found one track that had a solder joint go and there was a gap on ONE rail only. I wasn't sure if that
The more I read in this thread, the more convinced I am that you gotta do some serious troubleshooting, maybe even take down the wiring and the PSX units and start all over. The most likely suspect is your wiring, followed by your rail gaps, followed by your PSX configuration, followed by a faulty PSX, followed by a basic incompatibilty between the PSX and your DCC system. I am still betting on faulty wiring.
Johnnny_reb Capt, At this point I would assume all the wiring is fubared. I would start from scratch and check EVERYTHING as if setting it up for the first time. I can see you have some skills, but some times even the experts can be fumbuzzeled. What I do is take a break, go outside and have a smoke, a glass of tea, a beer whatever works to settle your nerves. Then start from the first step and check everything. Wright down what you've checked if need be. It may seem like the long way around but you'll know what's what. What is right and what is wrong, what has been check, what still needs to be checked.
Capt, At this point I would assume all the wiring is fubared. I would start from scratch and check EVERYTHING as if setting it up for the first time. I can see you have some skills, but some times even the experts can be fumbuzzeled. What I do is take a break, go outside and have a smoke, a glass of tea, a beer whatever works to settle your nerves. Then start from the first step and check everything. Wright down what you've checked if need be. It may seem like the long way around but you'll know what's what. What is right and what is wrong, what has been check, what still needs to be checked.
I agree. I had to do that once on a control panel. I added a DPDT switch to an existing panel and every LED indicator light on the panel went dim. I couldn't find the problem even after disconnecting the newest DPDT switch so I disabled every wire on the panel and started all over again. Took a couple of hours but eventually got everything up and running again.
Hi gang. Nah, I've gotta laugh...or I'll go nuts.
I went to an Ops session today and it was BLISS after the last few days! A day off WITH trains. Irony?
One of the guys there agreed that dasiy chaining from the last PSX-1 into the AR sounded wrong so
he agreed with what you've told me.
The guy who wired a couple of THEIR the group's home layouts' ARs did mine. I'll have to ask them if THEIRS are daisy chained or not. I hope I can get together with him next week or else figure it out by then.
1. I'm going to pull those wires and see what happens. just power the AR from the track buss.
2. NEXT I'm going to follow Mr. Beasley's advice and see if a feeder is wired to the wrong bus.
I looked pretty carefully last night but really need to move some boxes and climb in there tomorrow and
check every one. This does sound similar to your mystery.
I will also get the power supply "wart" tested if I don't find something.
3. I found one track that had a solder joint go and there was a gap on ONE rail only. I wasn't sure if that
would cause the "mystery" but I jumped both rail ends together with alligator clip/ test wire.
No change.
Maybe I should put "We Wear Short Shorts" on the CD player? If I finally find the short I might name it Martin Short. Keep 'em coming it's nice to have a laugh together. That doesn't occur too often on the DCC and Electronics forum page very often!
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
By the way can you post a picture or pictures of your layout ? I have a feeling it's one of those things that can be obvious if standing in front of it. pics might help
MisterBeasley richhotrain: This thread has the makings of a good mystery story. Rich "Shorts on the Orient Express."
richhotrain: This thread has the makings of a good mystery story. Rich
This thread has the makings of a good mystery story.
"Shorts on the Orient Express."
LOL
But, I'll bet that Captain G is less amused.
richhotrain This thread has the makings of a good mystery story. Rich
MisterBeasley Several months back, I added a PSX-4 to my layout. One of the units was allocated to the completed Phase 1 of the layout, two went to the new trackage on Phase 2, and I left one as a spare for the still-in-my-dreams-only Phase 3. Everything quarter-tested just fine, but when I started using it, I noticed that a short in one zone would cause the engines to cut out in another zone as well. I thought I had a problem with the PSX system, but I later discovered that I had wired one set of feeders to the wrong bus. So, there's something else to check. Disconnect the outputs from each PSX, one at a time, and then check those tracks with a meter. Also check each rail individually of the zone that should be dead against the opposite rail from one of the live zones. You should have no voltage in any of these situations. If you do, you may have a mis-wired feeder.
Several months back, I added a PSX-4 to my layout. One of the units was allocated to the completed Phase 1 of the layout, two went to the new trackage on Phase 2, and I left one as a spare for the still-in-my-dreams-only Phase 3. Everything quarter-tested just fine, but when I started using it, I noticed that a short in one zone would cause the engines to cut out in another zone as well. I thought I had a problem with the PSX system, but I later discovered that I had wired one set of feeders to the wrong bus.
So, there's something else to check. Disconnect the outputs from each PSX, one at a time, and then check those tracks with a meter. Also check each rail individually of the zone that should be dead against the opposite rail from one of the live zones. You should have no voltage in any of these situations. If you do, you may have a mis-wired feeder.
MisterBeasley,
Maybe we're both wrong, but I gotta agree with you. Based upon everything that Captain G is reporting to us, I have long suspected some sort of miswiring issue. This thread has the makings of a good mystery story.