Several months back, I added a PSX-4 to my layout. One of the units was allocated to the completed Phase 1 of the layout, two went to the new trackage on Phase 2, and I left one as a spare for the still-in-my-dreams-only Phase 3. Everything quarter-tested just fine, but when I started using it, I noticed that a short in one zone would cause the engines to cut out in another zone as well. I thought I had a problem with the PSX system, but I later discovered that I had wired one set of feeders to the wrong bus.
So, there's something else to check. Disconnect the outputs from each PSX, one at a time, and then check those tracks with a meter. Also check each rail individually of the zone that should be dead against the opposite rail from one of the live zones. You should have no voltage in any of these situations. If you do, you may have a mis-wired feeder.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yes. A PF 515. I had thought about swapping that out when my buddy said he'd come back with a spare 150 and his power supply.
How best to test it? I can run it down to our local Radio Shack (yeah,I know) if I have to.
1.) Can that shut down more than one power district even with gaps if there just isn't enough juice being put out from the power supply? I guess that would explaln the QSI not allowing the layout to come online? And/or the removal of a loco from the track (any track) to get the circuit breakers to kick back on?
2.) IF so, why would a cold start/ reboot of the system work until the next short circuit?
Would/could my command station show proper led lighting and work fine for awhile and then shut down later?
3.) I am using a UPS power interuption/protector of high quality. The power supply and command station are plugged into this. It's never been a problem and I used it in a former recording studio for years. The battery is old though (for continuing work during an outage). Could this be the problem?
I hate to not use it and it has been perfectly fine as far as I know, 'til now.
I want to be sure that a feeder from the main buss got attatched to the classification yard's buss and I never noticed BUT I'm grasping at straws there as we tested all track as we went since we started the layout 2.5 yrs. ago so I doubt it. Just getting desparate and punchy methinks. I remember initially doing the quarter test after we cut the original gaps.
This is only a 8' X 17' ft. layout with only a power buss or two and feeders so not too hard to track things down.
I can't remember if I posted it but I turned on the command station with the track output wires removed and the 100 showed normal lighting as Randy suggested.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
It might work for now but the AR really needs to be fed off the supply bus. It doesn't need breaker protection - the PSX-AR is both a reverser and a breaker. Plus feeding it off the main line breaker means that any time the main line shuts down, the reverse section will too. There was a discussion on this somewhere, probably the DIgitrax Yahoo group, about a PSX-AR downstream from a PSX and it actually was causing a problem.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've gone back over all of your missives and can think of one more possibility that has not been mentioned -- a flaky power supply. If the transformer powering your Digitrax system does not have adequate Amperage output this could cause all manner of weird problems.
Are you using a power supply recommended by Digitrax ?
Rich, yes, everything ran perfectly fine for at least a week. The new/QSI loco also performed fine for a couple of days after receiving it. I had no shut downs, problems powering up, etc. etc. until after everything being wired up as is for at least a week. Maybe more. ONLY when I got a new aquaintance/train buddy over to see and run on the layout. The typical Murphy Moment only this one is not just a moment.
Thanks Randy. After crawling under again, the wye feeders are going to the AR's top right connectors. The main feeders are NOT going to the AR. It looked that way when I last posted, but that was incorrect, sorry.
The 1st PSX in the chain is the classification yard. The 2nd is the main line and the 3rd is the industrial yard which only has a feeder coming off from the adjacent mainline for now until we get that separte bus installed.
The AR is daisly chained by having the same wires come off of the main line PSX as the others. (Into the L.H. side connectors. All wire colors match. The AR functions properly. I can back a loco into and up one leg and after hand throwing the t.o., back down the other. So...I think that's wired in correctly as I originally thought. Otherwise we'd be having polarity/non running issues there, correct?
I will have to have my buddy show up here and go over things with him and my troubleshooting list and this thread. Hopefully by the weekend.
I am still having to pull a loco off the layout after powering up, before the track power will come on. It doesn't have to be the QSI loco as it turns out (and the QSI DID fire up ok last week/originally).
My old Blue Line version once removed also restores power. So...maybe not loco dependent afterall... I tried doing the same with a Paragon 2 J1e and it didn't shut down or make any other difference.
The power stays on with normal lighting on my 3 PSX 1s and the AR. If I purposely short out the yard OR the whole layout shuts down. I'll look to see If I'm missing any gaps that have closed but I really don't think so. It's just weird. I just can't understand what's wired "funny" to allow that with the gaps ok.
I'll probably wait to reply anymore until my wiring friend comes back over and can respond with more "integrity".
In the meanwhile I can run again and at least check out the new locos that arrived in the mail.
No shut downs unless I derail or quarter test for now.
If all else fails, I'll come back next week with a diagram which I'll ask my buddy to check over with me.
Really guys, you've been very patient and helpful and I appreciate it.
Jim
Current inrush is specifically what the PSX is supposed to handle better than any other brand of circuit breaker. Even better than the original PowerShields. Though to be honest my PM42 recovers from shorts just fine with soud locos on the rails, things others have said just doesn't work unless they tip the offending loco off the rails to allow the reset. Go figure.
The PSX-AR downstream of a PSX is not right, howver the issue with that is that the reverser would not function properly and the section controlled by the PSX would drop out as well as the reverse loop. If those are the two sections you still see dropping off, that's the problem. Get the PSX-AR conencted to the main feed, the same place you tap off each of the PSX's, and you should be good.
Cacole, yes, thanks. That IS how it's wired up. (the AR). I thought about pulling those track feeder wires from the AR to see what happened. I'll do that. I've rechecked all gaps. For some reason my classification yard and mainline are both shutting down together still. They are on separate buses but at least when the railroad shuts down it comes back online in about the expected 2 seconds. Now.
Also the "new" loco with QSI sound is coming up with the track power again. I read a lot of older threads concerning the current inrush problem with older QSI decoders and their not being NMRA compliant.
With whatever else is going on (hopefully those track feeders to the AR that are already hooked up to the mainline) made it so that the system wouldn't power up with that loco on the track. Once it was up, the loco could be placed and run. This behavior agrees with those QSI posts.
I have no way to post a diagram or photos at present. If I don't get this figured out within a week, perhaps I can email someone pics of my hook ups and they could post them? I'll scan a primitive diagram and email that as well. For the present, I'd rather not set up a photobucket account, etc. just yet.
Thanks for hanging in with my long learning experience.
I'd agree that the daisy-chained PSX-ARs are wrong. It may be that this is actually the cause of the whole problem.
cacole CPT G: You've gotten us all confused with your explanations of how things are wired. We need a wiring schematic to see what you have done wrong.
CPT G: You've gotten us all confused with your explanations of how things are wired. We need a wiring schematic to see what you have done wrong.
Truer words were never spoken. LOL
Alton Junction
If I follow this correctly, one PSX-AR (the new one) is connected to track that is itself wired through a second PSX-AR? I don't think you're supposed to wire them that way -- take the second PSX-AR's input directly off your bus wiring, not off the rail that is connected to a second PSX-AR.
With all of this back and forth information, I have grown a bit confused.
As I re-read this thread, you have a Super Chief Digitrax system using DT400R throttle. You have three separate power districts, the main yard, the mainline, and an additional industrial yard. The main yard and the mainline have separate bus wires, but the industrial yard is powered by a set of feeder wires from the mainline.
When everything was working properly, was this the wiring setup?
A track diagram would surely help here. But, absent a track diagram, tell us this. How many PSX-AR units are installed on the layout, and where are they located?
How many PSX-AR units were installed on the layout and where were they located when everything was working OK?
Where did you install the latest PSX-AR on your layout?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Rich
Randy, yes the AR IS connected downstram (to a previous PSX circuit breaker board). The AR is powered from the mainline via temporary feeder wires. They seem to be hooked up properly but I'll take the AR off of the previous PSX and see what happens. Thanks for that tip. I needed to go back and re-read that.
I'll remove the output wires form the 100 lst. Then check the AR.
No gaps have closed up. One looked pretty close so I cut it a tad wider just in case. I don't have insulating material filling the gaps yet but they are definitely open/separated. I agree they need to be filled with styrene or AC very soon but for now, they're fine.
More in the morning...
Sorry...
I was only trying to offer a suggestion.
In my particular situation the 3.8 amps wasn't enough. At any given time I may have several "high draw" trains entering a power district depending on train direction, consist, etc. I run a lot of sound engines and a lot of lighted passenger cars and sometimes the "balance of power" may require a heavy draw, even if momentarily, on a particular power district. Sure, I could have opted for one of the intermediate current settings on the PS four but I decided to jumper it to 7 amps... my risk-but I have never blown a decoder or melted anything since I upped the trip setting about six years ago.
It wasn't exactly the four Stewarts that were at fault, it just happened that they were the engines I was running at the time and I may have had other equipment or trains running in that particular district at the same time.
The OP mentioned "Surging" and that's exactly what I was getting as the PS4 tripped/reset/tripped/reset...
Probably not the same thing, but if a Kato motor is tripping a 3.8 amp breaker, that motor is probably toast. I've never seen one draw that much stalled. Setting the breaker to 7.2 amps sort of defeats the purpose - the idea is that a power district shouldn;t have so many locos in it at one time that it needs to be set that high. 3.8 should be plenty for 4-5 locos in the same power district without tripping.
Some years ago, in my DCC infancy, I was getting random shutdowns in power districts. I have two PS fours and two AR ones (they were PSRevs back then).
I was running an older set of A-B-B-A Stewart f-7s and I would get a short (actually an overload) and I could not find a problem with the individual locomotives.
Then I read the directions for the PS four and remembered the jumpers for the current trip setting (JP4) and the response time delay. As shipped the PS four is set to trip at 3.8 amps. I then soldered short jumper wires to pins 1-2 & 3-4 at JP-4 to raise trip current to 7.2 amps (running an 8 amp Super Chief)
Problem solved. I kept the response time to 10 milisec. These Stewarts were Kato drive, no sound but they must have been drawing enough (heavy train, old, sticky lube?) to trip at the 3.8 amp setting.
Also cold inrush of lots of lighted passenger cars and capacitors across some decoders will increase the startup current to the point of looking like a short to the PS four.
Might not be your particular problem but something to consider Good Luck... Ed
Sorry, I meant to say in paragraph 2 above that the track power would not come on until I removed the new loco from the tracks. Once it came on, I could replace and run that loco just fine.
These gaps- are you using insulated rail joiners at the gaps, or gluing plastic into the gaps? If you're just cutting the rail and not putting some kind of insulating barrier between the rail ends at the gaps, I wouldn't consider them reliable gaps.
Without some kind of insulating barrier in the gaps, all it takes is a few degrees of temperature swing to close up the gaps electrically. Or someone running a bright boy over the rail and sliding the ends together.
You don't want to cut corners when putting in rail gaps.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
That's what I thought but wanted to check. NEW diagnosis: The new locomotive IS NOT the cause of the shorts. Probably neither is the Big Boy...
When I lst turn on the system with the new loco (the Powerhouse/BLI Mikado) it was causing the entire layout to shut down (even with the gapped tracks) when it was likely just one of us shorting out as we placed the loco on the powered up track. Normally the PSXs would come back on pretty instantly.
With the current "mysterious situation" the system has to be cold started/rebooted.
I try to always turn off track power with the throttle before placing or removing locos to preserve decoders but I don't think we both did, yesterday. We thought the loco was the CAUSE rather than a symptom of a wiring problem. So...it's now onto the wiring connections at the AR and command station.
My buddy hasn't been able to make it today afterall so I'll tackle that tonight or in the a.m.
The loco's decoder did switch back to default address 03 but that's probably from the track power on replacing.
Frustrating, but I'm learning my troubleshooting skills with DCC and chasing the "ghosts".
Thanks.
The lack of a traction tire should not cause a short circuit. We have several locomotives at our HO scale club that originally had traction tires and they all run without them. The short is from something other than the traction tire.
Ok thank you. I'll move on to the AR and Command Station and PSX checks next if things don't continue to cooperate. I'll let you guys know, It might take a couple of days if things SEEM to be ok now.
From auto repairs, I've always checked the last thing done lst. (the AR) but the guy who wired it in thinks it was indeed done correctly and so do I as it worked fine (with finger flipping of the turnout points) and I could turn locos without issue for about a week. That should tell me it's working properly (even without a tortoise installed) yes?
I'm going to take a breath of fresh air and peek at the sun while things seem to be working again.
Capt. Grimek SO: My big question (of the moment is" Why are ALL of the properly gapped power districts shutting down (the entire system)? Why isn't the "sick" loco only shutting down it's OWN district? Jim
SO: My big question (of the moment is"
Why are ALL of the properly gapped power districts shutting down (the entire system)?
Why isn't the "sick" loco only shutting down it's OWN district?
Probably because one of the rails isn't properly gapped or something is miswired - - - from the autoreverser, maybe?
If the layout is properly wired and the rails are properly gapped, only the power district involved in the short should shut down.
Just simply start by only hooking up one of the original sections. If the breaker doesn't trip then ONLY hook up the new section in question. If it trips that's the problem area.
Chances are the reverser is the issue.
Springfield PA
Maybe have the solution(s). Before I got to pulling wires from the command station, I went around and pulled everything off of all tracks. We had done this yesterday but it didn't kick the system back on.
We knew the "new" loco was shorting out the system even after running great for 2 days. Every time it was placed on a track it killed the system. What I just now discovered is that my Big Boy ALSO is shorting out the system. One of the traction tires "hit the road" on it's own.
I can now get the entire railroad back online if I leave those locos off the tracks. SOMETIMES when I reboot the system the Big Boy cooperates, sometimes it pulses and clicks. Other times it just kills the system.
I'm not sure why, yesterday, the PSXs didn't come back online until 4 min. or so and then...never but at this point I'm not sure if the Big Boy was on the track or it just was unhappy after the new loco shorted things out.
I'll continue troubleshooting with the locos as opposed to the PSX, AR and Command Station for now.
I do need to understand the gaps/power districts not isolating the problem when they always did before yesterday.
The quarter test works fine now. All power/districts come back up after the usual couple of seconds (PSXs).
I WILL try isolating the command station for practice trouble shooting for the future too, but for now I THINK I've found the problem?
Thanks Cacole for the suggestion to pull EVERYTHING off the layout and start fresh yet again. I was pretty certain we'd done that yesterday as we kept troubleshooting lists but we also got pretty "punch drunk" by the end.
Let me know if there's anything else to try other than just running everything I've got for awhile and see if problems return or not. At least, it appears, I'll be able to try out those new decapods that showed up yestereday. I was so bummed I didn't even open the boxes up until that evening.
Now I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy...and hopeful !
We'll open up the two locos and/or just replace the traction tire on the Big Boy and see what's what.
Thank you Thank you,
Heading into the train room. My buddy hasn't called yet... Thanks Randy for getting back to me and clarifying. I can see that someday I'll have gone through enough tribulations to just know what to look for and do, but in the meanwhile you folks are truly appreciated for your time and advice. I'll let you all know what's found out.
Another possibility that has not been mentioned by anyone -- a shorted wheelset in a piece of rolling stock or a locomotive with an internal short circuit.
Remove ALL locomotives and rolling stock from the layout. If no short, then it's definitely one of them. Replace them one at a time until the short returns, and that one is the defective item.
We have had an old, uninsulated wheelset show up on a piece of rolling stock. A boxcar or other piece of rolling stock with a metal bottom, metal trucks, and metal wheelsets can also create a short circuit.
It's highly likely that it's the new addition - is the autoreverser connected directly to the main bus or downstream of one of the breakers? The PSX-AR does NOT work downstream of a PSX regardless of what Tony says. There's no need for it to be protected by a breaker anyway, it has one built in.
What I meant by disconnecting at the command station is that this will test if the problem is internal to the DCS100 or elsewhere in the wiring. If the shorting keeps happenign with no output wires connected to the DCS100 then there's an internal problem and it needs a vacation to Florida.
My bet is going to be that one of the gaps in the wye closed up so it's not completely gapped allt eh way around. That would explain why it worked for a while then finally died.
Capt. Grimek I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks. I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
I have been running without issues for a long time but suddenly, I'm experiencing short circuit indicators on my PSX s and it shuts down BOTH the main and yard. They are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks.
I've trouble shot the layout wiring (and don't think that's the issue anyway-all recent, new installation but in use for months to 2 yrs. depending on the section. The only NEW addition was an AR PSX board for a wye. The wye is hand thrown for now so no switch motor involved.
Capt. G,
Think about it for a second. Your answer is almost surely embedded in your question.
You have been running without issues for a long time but, suddenly, you are experiencing short circuit indicators on your PSX and it shuts down both the main and yard although they are on separate busses and power districts are in place via gaps in the tracks. The only new addition was an AR PSX board for a wye.
It's gotta be the PSX, not your command station which was performing flawlessly until you installed the PSX. At least in my mind, the only question is: did you screw up the wiring or is the PSX faulty?
I own several Digitrax AR-1s but not any PSXs. However, I have read about problems with the PSX and compatibility issues with certain Digitrax DCC equipment. So if you are convinced that your wiring is flawless, which apparently it was until you added in the PSX, then the problem is in the PSX. However, if I were a betting man, you screwed up the wiring.
Let us know what you find out.
Thanks Johnny Reb. I'll go through the processes both you and Randy have described. I'll let you guys know what we find.
Randy the part that I was confused about... did you mean that the track wires going in and out of the 100 could be shorting the 100/command station rather than the other way around? If that's the case I think I get what you were saying now.
I appreciate the help. To be continued...
When adding to an electrical system be it dc or dcc. The last added is normally the thing causing the new problem. With that said, I have seen a single strand of wire cause a short. It sounds like you have a short causing the sound you hear coming from you Logo's. The system is protecting itself and when it can't do so it does a full system shutdown.
I would disconnect the auto reverser to test the system. If things run normally check the wiring of the auto reverser. If the system still shorts out I would disconnect one power district at a time and recheck the system. When you take the section that is shorting out of the system, the system will run as normal. Then you can troubleshot that section.
Have you seen this page? Short Protection. While this does not stop shorts from happening it does give the short something to do other then feedback into the control unit. On a side note; The more current you draw on the power unit the brighter the bulb will glow. If you install one in each power feed the section with the short will glow brightly. While the others will not glow as bright or some times not at all.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel