I remember looking at a video on the MRR's website a few months back where they were discussing the installation of a new CVP EasyDCC system.
I read awhile on their site last night in trying to ascertain what features they have or are missing from my wish list. Is it me or do they not provide much information up front in their brochures.
I'll go digging through the forum here for past comments on the EasyDCC starter systems....I'll be back.
John
John, that is good that you are finding out the little nuances of each system, this way you can at least start with something that comes close to meeting your needs. However, the likelihood is that there will be some level of compromise, even if you jump up to one of the higher end starter sets.
I was about to comment that the speed mismatch issue has never really bothered me on my Zephyr, but realize that I hardly ever use the Z as my throttle, preferring to use the DT402 as my control of choice. I took my Z over to CudaKen's house for him to try when he was making a decision, and it was this speed change issue that put him off the unit completely. He ended up going for a Super Empire Builder set instead.
Bottom line is that NCE and Digitrax do make decent product, you just have to figure out which one comes closest to meeting your needs. I am not sure that I would discount MRC either and would certainly give Lenz a look. I for one would not purchase the MRC system, because I find great value in the Decoder Pro application and rather resent MRC's decision not to support it and offer their own proprietary solution instead.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Well that was enlightening.
Yes I was planning to use the Zephyr standalone for awhile and I thought that it did have a recall stack, yes I do want a recall stack,
Also it never occured to me that I'd have to readjust the throttle after selecting the new engine and then watch it speed up or slow down due to a mismatch in speed. Not good.
Well now I'm back to square one,
Thanks all, appreciate the feedback and the schooling.
John,
Are you thinking of just starting with a Zephyr alone with no hand-held throttle? If so, this doesn't work very well in running several trains at the same time. There is no "recall stack" so you have to punch in each loco address when you want to select it. You can have several trains running at the same time but to switch back and forth you must punch in the address each time. This can be a bit awkward if you need to switch back and forth very quickly.
Also it has a potentiometer so when you select a moving loco you have to preset the speed dial to about where you think the loco is running or else you get a severe and abrupt speed change.
Starting off with a Zephyr and a DT402 series throttle is the ideal setup.
All functions, including F2, are only active for the currently selected loco and are not "programmed" for specific locos.
You are probably aware that you can only run one DC loco at a time on Digitrax.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
tstageeach has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses
I'm not quite sure that this is correct. I believe that consist addresses are stored, but I don't think individual loco addresses are stored.
Just curious as to why you are thinking simplex radio instead of duplex. I think duplex only costs about $20 more total for both throttle and receiver.
jcook01 To clarify my situation further I can see two operators max on my layout. Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct? Maybe I'm wrong here, I've no real world experience working with DCC to date. To further clarify for arguments sake I'll have about 12 engines on the layout with four consisted or solo-engine trains running on average at any one time. The rest sitting in the shed, siding or the yard etc.
Yes, you will initially need an address each locomotive before putting it in a consist. However, a consist will have only one address and all the individual locomotives will programmed to and respond to that one address - i.e. until you break up or kill the consist. Then each locomotive returns to its 2- or 4-digit address that you initially gave it.
John, I'm not entirely sure but I suspect that some clarification may be in order here. A recall stack is a list of "recent" locomotive addresses in your throttle's cache that you can recall at a given moment while you are operating with your throttle.
The Power Cab has a 2 locomotive limit; the Zephyr, 10. Although the recall stack is different between the two, each has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses.
Say you have your consist of four locomotives and another single locomotive. Your consist would have one address and your single locomotive would have another. Therefore, you would only need two addresses to run a total of 5 locomotives. The Power Cab would feasibly be able to handle both - i.e. enough power for operation and the ability to toggle back and forth between the two addresses.
Since I have a small layout (4 x 8), the limited recall stack of the Power Cab is not a big deal to me. Running more than two locomotives simultaneously would be both flirting with trouble and taxing the capacity of my brain. LOL!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
OK, I've been doing some more digging based upon the feedback so far, excellent feedback by the way, thanks all. I'm glad I signed up for the MRR magazine even if it does appear to lean more heavily into HO rather my gauge of choice N (its a space thing). This forum is worth the subscription price.
I've concluded that an initial zephyr purchase would get us most of the way there and that the addition of a UR91 and DT402R would bring into play the wireless radio capability down the road.
I noticed that the Zephyr has a "Function 2" key that is momentary as long as its depressed for sound functions. Are there more than one Function 2 keys? Will the addition of the DT402R provide access to more Function 2 style keys? I'm assuming here that the Function 2 key is independently programmed for whichever Loco is currently being addressed by the Zephyr but I'd like to have the option to more than one dedicated function per Loco if possible, not mandatory.
I also like the address 00 DC feature, all of my existing LOCOs are currently DCC ready except for an older Super Chief Bachman that I would like to run on occasion (if it'll run on code 55 rails...ouch). The DC feature now that I think about would let me migrate as I can afford it into DCC decoders (I'd forgotten about that).
Thanks again all, I think this may be the direction we'll go and the little extra power of 2.5 amps may be all we'll ever need.
maxman jcook01: some day I'd like to easily go wireless. Okay for all except not too practicle for Power Cab unless you upgrade to the SB3a Smart Booster. I'm not sure what you mean by practical, nor do I think you need a Smart Booster. Our club has a little module they take from place to place for demonstration purposes and they have hooked up the NCE radio base station to the PowerCab and were able to run with a radio throttle. And they don't have a Smart Booster to the best of my knowledge.
some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
Okay for all except not too practicle for Power Cab unless you upgrade to the SB3a Smart Booster.
I'm not sure what you mean by practical, nor do I think you need a Smart Booster. Our club has a little module they take from place to place for demonstration purposes and they have hooked up the NCE radio base station to the PowerCab and were able to run with a radio throttle. And they don't have a Smart Booster to the best of my knowledge.
jcook01: some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
jcook01Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct?
No. Each engine will have an address called the long address that is stored in the memory of the decoder in the engine. When you consist the engines, that is put a number of them together pulling the same train, you need only enter the number of the lead engine. When you tell the lead engine to move, all the consisted engines will move as one. So, if you are using the NCE system you would only have that first engine in the recall stack.
jcook01 when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
jcook01I want to be able to drive up to 4-6 trains, some consisted, from a memory location in 128 speed mode.
jcook01 I want hand held sound control and switch control at all times if possible.
jcook01I want PC interface control via JMR or similar
jcook01and I don't want my layout coming to a halt when using the programming feature.
jcook01I also want macro'd switch control.
jcook01some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
jcook01Two way control may or may not be a requirement I guess that depends upon the reliability of throwing switches and how well the perform to the command being sent.
jcook01I do not plan to use two way signalling (local automated signaling only)
jcook01and will uncouple cars manually. My switching yard I think I will switch manually so macro-switching will be for main lines and main siding only.
jcook01With all that being said I think the PowerCab may be too limiting.
From everything you have said, it sounds like a Zephyr plus a D402 throttle would fit your requirements and might be a good way to start. You could also add a UT4 throttle for your daughter. This system would be upgradeable and expandalble in many ways, and, with no wasted equipment.
I hope others will correct any of my comments if incomplete or in error.
I will just add a plug for radio. I know some feel it is a luxury, and it is, but once you use it you never want to go back to tethered again. It's just such a pleasure to run wireless. I'm even using radio on my small N scale layout.
To clarify my situation further I can see two operators max on my layout. Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct? Maybe I'm wrong here, I've no real world experience working with DCC to date. To further clarify for arguments sake I'll have about 12 engines on the layout with four consisted or solo-engine trains running on average at any one time. The rest sitting in the shed, siding or the yard etc.
Yes, I would like to allow my daughter to operate while I'm tinkering on the programming track, not shutting down the layout will probably be one of the top items in my list.
Initially we'll operate switching from the handset only but eventually I'd like to integrate a PC into the system.
Also I just now noticed that wireless in DigiTrax is actually Infrared, which to me means line of site only or at most bouncing it off the walls etc. Is there an RF option out there somewhere?
Thank you again for the comments.
jwils1 Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr. Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts. In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc). And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all. There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution. You are correct but I thought John was talking about throwing turnouts from a throttle so that is what I was addressing.
Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr. Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts. In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc). And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all. There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution.
jwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.
Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts.
In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc).
And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all.
There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution.
As I mentioned in my original post, DS64 routes can be triggered by switch commands generated by a throttle, but you don't need a Chief to do it.
The DS64's can get their switch commands from the TRKA and TRKB inputs, so any DCC system/throttle capable of sending switch commands can trigger them.
Or if you wanted to, you could plug a DT* throttle into that stand-alone LocoNet and use it to send switch commands to trigger DS64 routes. How do I know that works? Well, I'm in the process of setting up a yard/staging area with 15 turnouts controlled by four DS64's, which will have roughly 8 or 10 routes when it's done. I'm using a PR3 in LocoNet Master mode with a computer and LocoNet Checker to program the DS64's, and a DT400 to check operation of the individual turnouts and the routes as I go along. No command station is involved at all.
So again, you do NOT need a Chief to trigger DS64 routes.
jwils1 tstageIf you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster.Tom, Did you mean to say Power Pro instead of Power Cab in that sentence?
tstageIf you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster.
Doh! Yes, that's what I meant, Jerry. And I've corrected the error on my earlier post. Thanks, Jerry.
maxmanNo one as yet has asked R.Y.A.N. how big his proposed railroad will be, nor what expansion plans he might have in the future. He did ask about a particular starter set. I believe that he has, or will have, a small railroad. If that is the case I think we have, indeed, wandered away from the original question.
maxmanSecond, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion. If I assume 4 recalls per handset, that's 16 engines, or 16 consists. Exactly how many different locos/trains can be run at one time on that 4 X 8? Or are people just lazy and don't want to punch in a different loco number when they can just scroll through all the stacked numbers until they stumble on the one they want?
maxmanFirst, on the concern over the number of cabs that the Procab can handle, how many cabs are actually necessary on a small railroad? Is not four enough?
For me no, especially when you consider that the PC interface and the mini panel take 2 of these available cab slots. I frequently have 4 cabs and sometimes more on my Zephyr controlled layout along with the PC interface.
maxmanSecond, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion.
maxmanFinally, the issue of shutting down the railroad while programming has been brought up. Yes, this is what happens with any of the NCE systems. But so what?
But this is the whole point, different people have different needs and ways of using there systems. Thankfully it is not a one-size-fits-all situation.
jwils1Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.  Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts.  In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc).  And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all.  There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution.  You are correct but I thought John was talking about throwing turnouts from a throttle so that is what I was addressing.
Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.  Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts.  In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc).  And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all.  There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution. Â
 Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts.Â
 In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc).Â
 And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all.Â
 There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution. Â
No one as yet has asked R.Y.A.N. how big his proposed railroad will be, nor what expansion plans he might have in the future. He did ask about a particular starter set. I believe that he has, or will have, a small railroad. If that is the case I think we have, indeed, wandered away from the original question.
After reading some of the concerns in the posts above, I'd like to render my opinion and ask some questions of the other posters.
First, on the concern over the number of cabs that the Procab can handle, how many cabs are actually necessary on a small railroad? Is not four enough? How many operators are actually required on a 4 X 8, or a 8 X 16? If 4 is not enough, then we should not be talking about a good beginning DCC system anyway.
Second, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion. If I assume 4 recalls per handset, that's 16 engines, or 16 consists. Exactly how many different locos/trains can be run at one time on that 4 X 8? Or are people just lazy and don't want to punch in a different loco number when they can just scroll through all the stacked numbers until they stumble on the one they want?
Finally, the issue of shutting down the railroad while programming has been brought up. Yes, this is what happens with any of the NCE systems. But so what? Most programming of decoders can be done on the main, including changing the loco address from the initial default short address of 3 to whatever long address is desired. And if it is necessary to get into some serious programming on a programming track because someone has royally messed with a decoder, I would think that that work would be done in a situation where my concentration was not being diverted by trying to keep my Broadway Limited from crashing into my ballast train.
Just my opinions, of course.
jcook01 I guess I keep lingering on hoping to see that one definitive answer that brings closure to all of my concerns, but unfortunately as I continue to read I find out just how ignorant I really am, case in point a couple of posts back, when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
I'm the one who made this comment. You don't lose sound when in Digitrax Switch Mode you just can't initiate a sound, like blowing the horn or turning on the bell.
For most, this is not a concern. You press the button for Switch Mode only when you want to throw a turnout from your throttle, or maybe a series of turnouts as your loco weaves its way throw a section of track. You may or may not want to use the horn or bell at this time. As soon as you finish throwing the turnout you exit Switch Mode.
If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.
jcook01Question, if I understand correctly, the PowerCab can only recall two trains from memory at once, only 4 ea cabs (handheld controllers) connected at once for a total of 8 trains in memory but with limited power under two amps. Do I have this straight?
Yes, you are correct, John. The new Smart Booster (SB3a) will remedy both the power and recall issues, however. It increases total output of the Power Cab from 1.7A to 5A and recall from 2 to 6 locomotives. I believe the throttle address is still limited to 4 total though. Moving up to the Powerhouse (PH) Pro will give you many more throttle addresses.
With the SB3a, you can also unplug and plug your Power Cab around your layout (via the UTP panels) without shutting the layout down. (Essentially, it "overrides" the command station of the Power Cab and turns the Power Cab into a Pro Cab.) This will also enable you to use the Power Cab over on your bench (or wherever) to program locomotives with, rather than having your programming track restricted to your layout.
If you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab Pro, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster. If you are wanting to program with the Power Cab, you'll need the USB interface board to do that. (~$50-$60) The PH Pro has an RS-232 port already on the back of the command station.
John, whatever DCC system you ultimately end up choosing, I would encourage you to try as many systems out firsthand before you purchase one. This will allow you to see how intuitive the interfaces (throttles) are to you; both from an appearance point of view, as well as an interaction point of view.
Hope that helps...
I'm in the same position as the O.P. in this thread, trying to juggle all the choices of a first DCC system. I've been watching this particular thread, it does answer the mail and it does branch out a bit, both answers are very substantive and not off topic in my opinion. Thank you all for the comments to date.
I guess I keep lingering on hoping to see that one definitive answer that brings closure to all of my concerns, but unfortunately as I continue to read I find out just how ignorant I really am, case in point a couple of posts back, when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
It's the little things that keep me from pulling the trigger and I haven't seen enough of your responses to identify all the hidden pitfalls. Sheesh I wish this was easier.
I want to be able to drive up to 4-6 trains, some consisted, from a memory location in 128 speed mode. I want hand held sound control and switch control at all times if possible. I want PC interface control via JMR or similar and I don't want my layout coming to a halt when using the programming feature. I also want macro'd switch control. The overall layout will be about 3 ea 4x8s in N scale and some day I'd like to easily go wireless. Two way control may or may not be a requirement I guess that depends upon the reliability of throwing switches and how well the perform to the command being sent. I do not plan to use two way signalling (local automated signaling only) and will uncouple cars manually. My switching yard I think I will switch manually so macro-switching will be for main lines and main siding only.
With all that being said I think the PowerCab may be too limiting.
Question, if I understand correctly, the PowerCab can only recall two trains from memory at once, only 4 ea cabs (handheld controllers) connected at once for a total of 8 trains in memory but with limited power under two amps. Do I have this straight?
Regards and thanks for all the responses.
Not my intention to hijack the this thread, I think we both share a lot of the same questions and concerns
simon1966jwils1We haven't heard form r.y.a.n for awhile now and what I wonder is....has this info been helpful, or have we overwhelmed him with too much info He will be back, I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread he has started asking about DCC systems and which to choose, so he is probably getting close to making a decision about which way to go by now.
jwils1We haven't heard form r.y.a.n for awhile now and what I wonder is....has this info been helpful, or have we overwhelmed him with too much info
He will be back, I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread he has started asking about DCC systems and which to choose, so he is probably getting close to making a decision about which way to go by now.
I see he hasn't visited since the 19th. But as noted he'll more than likely be back. maybe he keeps posting because when he visits again he forgets he already asked or can't find his original thread
Springfield PA
On ANY online forum you rarely see people posting just to say "hey check it out, my system works great"
No, people post when they have a problem or question they can't figure out. You can't use a forum like that to judge quality of anything.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
David,
Are all the units being sent in for repair, or are some of them being upgraded? I agree with Simon on his synposis about DCC manufacturers.
If NCE were a fly-by-night company I would be concerned, but they have an excellent reputation. Read the Digitrax yahoo group and you will see things being sent back to Digitrax as well. None of the companies can ship 100% perfect stuff, but if you know that they will stand behind their product then you should feel confident in purchasing. Personally, I would have no qualms about buying from NCE, Digitrax, Lenz or CVP if I were in the market for a DCC system.
Another timely topic and discussion as I review and contemplate my own decisions on DCC systems. The only concern I have is the number of messages I read on the NCE Yahoo group regarding having to have systems repaired. Is this a common occurence? Although I understand the service is very good from NCE.
Thanks,