I would say DON'T DO THAT - it makes it very easy to leave both DC and DCC connected at the same time, with potentially disasterous results where the DCC system is concerned. If you really must have both, use one set of bus and feed wires, and put a DPDT CENTER OFF toggle switch between the DC and DCC systems. Center Off so that there's not chance of a make before break contact that owuld connect both systems together. Either run the entire layout on DC or the entire layotu on DCC, do not mix the two.
As for the "need to be an engineer to understand Digitrax" this is becomign a broken record. There is NOTHING with a Digitrax system that is inherently more complex than any other system. In fact with most of the others you need to set a unique address for each cab you plug in. And some addresses only work with radio cabs, and some only with plug in cabs. Do the proponents of the other systems ever mention that? With Digitrax, you just plug in the new cab and start using it. Nothing to congigure, no need to check a setting on the command station to make sure it allows enough cabs.
The new MRC ad on the back of the latest MR is a real hoot. One step address programmign whereas all the others are 3, 4, 5? I guess it depends on what your definition of 'step' is, because I really doubt the MRC has a magic button that says Address that you press and key in the address you want and press nothing else - that would be one step. By that definition, Digitrax actually probably has the fewest 'steps' since when you hit the Program button the first thing it assumes is you are programming an address. Pick 2 or 4 digit, type in the number (or use the dials) press enter, and confirm with a Yes. Done. Doesn't sound like it needs an engineer to me. And MRC claims they have only a small manual, not the huge book the others do - perhaps because the other brands like Digitrax and NCE actually tell you IN DETAIL about everything their systems can do, MRC seems to be hiding something - or maybe it just doesn't have as many features. Wow, MRC has the basic operations listed on the back of the handheld - that's a nice feature to have it there for you, but I've seen Digitrax and NCE people do the same, you just have to print out the list yourself and tape it on the back. Hardly Earth-shatteringly innovative. I'll give MRC props for doing it, they probably saw users of the other brnads making cheat sheets like that long before MRC had a worthwhile DCC system so they decided to incorporate it as a feature, something the others haven't thought to do.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Forgot to say. I'm also planning on trying to run some DC trains on the same layout. It's not going to be huge so I thought I'd wire a second bus for a DC controller so when I wanted to run DC I'd just disconnect the DCC controller from it's bus and connect the DC controller to it's one and off we go. I'm not going to go crazy on attaching the DC line as frequently as the DCC, just a couple of places probably. Think that should be ok.
Dan
Hi
I'm a newbie also looking into what DCC system to go for. I made the mistake of buying the Athearn Big Boy DCC with Sound last week thinking I'd play around on DC for a while then upgrade to DCC in a few years. Trouble is I'm now hooked and want to play with it's full capabilities.
Anyway, I've read all the threads I could find on here plus all the reviews on everything I could find and ended up with the conclusion I was after either the NCE powercab or MRC Prodigy Advance2. Just took a trip to my 2 local hobby stores for some human interaction about the subject, thought I'd share their advice in case it can help someone. The first only stocks the MRC product, both the Prodigy Express and Prodigy Advance2. He said he basically just stocks what he personally hasn't had trouble with. Seems he was talking more about ease of use rather than quality issues. He commented on Digitrax saying you need to be an engineer to figure out how to use it. I'm not an engineer (chemist, so close) and don't feel like stretching my brain too far when really I'm just playing. Anyway, he pretty much sealed me on the MRC product with his personal experience with it. The second hobby store, which is more of a craft store with a stash of train stuff in the back corner didn't stock anything except an old Digitrax Zephyr collecting dust in the back. I told him that unfortunately that was one I'd already ruled out and he wasn't too surprised. He said basically noone wants it as it doesn't come with the hand held unit.
I'm not trying to knock Digitrax, obviously there are plenty of people here who love it, just passing on the opinions of the 2 hobby shops I went to today. Basically my thinking for my decision was I wanted something with a hand held cab, I wanted it to be upgradable, easy to use, access to all 28 possible functions (maybe one day I'll want my train to sound like a cow or whatever strange sounds are in those higher functions). I'm probably never going to have a monstrous layout, but I don't want to have to change completely if I ever (maybe I'll hit that megamillions jackpot one day) do. The MRC Prodigy Express seemed too limiting and wasn't easily upgradable apparently (although you could use it as a cab on a advance system I think). I was turned off the Zephyr as it didn't come with the handheld cab and seems to be a little limited without it, the speed thing when switching trains is a big turn off for me. The Zephyr plus the hand held throttle put the price above my budget. It was then down to the NCE Powercab or the MRC Prodigy Advance2, there are some good discounts available on the internet right now on the MRC so price is similar. The MRC product appears to have more value in it, i.e. does more stuff. It looks like it competes with the NCE PowerPro so the MRC it is. Oh and MRR staff also seem to use it in their loco reviews, I would assume they know a thing or 2.
MRC doesn't seem to have too many fans on this forum, but I think it's the one for me.
Thanks Gents for correcting me ... but know I am just as confused as ever.
NCE PowerCab or Digitrax System of some kind ...
David
Gents,
Thanks for the information, I've made my decision.
Regards, John
Yes, that's definitely WAY backwards. There are more third party products for Loconet then there are other systems combined. If there's a Beta/VHS comparison, Loconet is the VHS in terms of multiple vendor support (but the Beta in terms of technical capabilities). This was brought up previously in this thread somewhere, but ONLY Digitrax Loconet lets the computer interface see EVERYTHING that goes on - when someone changes speed of the loco they are running, when someone operates a turnout, etc. So where the others require some sort of input board to connect to be able to know, for example, turnout position, you don't with Loconet. A virtual control panel in JMRI will 'see' the turnout position regardless if it's changed via said control panel or someone dials up the address on their throttle. Everything happens with that single bus, which you'd run anyway to connect to the throttle plug-ins or the wireless receivers. NCE now has a signal system - but if you look you'll see that it connects to both the cab bus AND it has a secondary bus to link among the signal modules.
In addition to all the commercial Loconet products (which Digitrax advertises right on their own web site! Yes, competitive products linked right on their web site), there are tons of DIY projects of various levels. Some like Hans Deloof's I/O boards, are basically soldering kits, others require a bit more ability as to programming the controller chips. In the early days it was said that Digitrax;'s policy of licensing Loconet would mean it would be doomed - but the only person who seems to have missed out if Keith at CVP who made his wireless throttle sfor his own system as well as Lenx but refused to make a Loconet version because, he claims, of the licensing. I did once mention that to one of the Loconet device vendors listed in the previous message, and without revealing details, learned that this licensing fee is pennies - if paying said fee to Digitrax for a commercial product is going to make or break your business, you need a different business model. In other words - insignificant. They aren't making their money off license fees, it's just to keep everyone honest and cover testing and certification - all the commercial third party products have been tested by Digitrax to be compatible.
dsabourneAre you planning to use your PC right away for block detection and the like ... I don't think you can get that from a Zephyr
dsabourneThe NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive.
jcook01The Pro would certainly meet all my requirements except for DC operation and from what I've read doesn't support positive feedback to the PC for block detection and the like. At least that's what I beleive I've read here, maybe I've taken something out of context.
dsabourne but with NCE PowerCab you get the handheld throttle right away and the PC connectivity if not readily available now, I am sure will come with time. The NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive. I remember the Beta Video Tape days. :)
I think you got this wrong way round. A PC interface is already available for the Powecab and has been for some time. It has some limitations as explained on the JMRI Decoder Pro web site. There are very few 3rd party products and applications for NCE, and several for Digitrax. In fact I think most people that choose Digitrax and Loconet do so specifically because it is the least restrictive of the systems and has far more 3rd party support. Take the PC interface for example, with the Zephyr you could add the Digitrax made PR3 or the RR Circuits Locobuffer USB, either of which offer full bidirectional communication between the Loconet command station and the PC. Plus if you add either of them it does not consume one of your CAB slots.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
John,
The idea of running DC with Zephyr for me too was an initial incentive ... however, I have talked too and read on these forums and groups, says don't do so! I am not an electrical engineer, but a civil engineer and trying to push an AC circuit through a DC motor directly is not a good idea. For around, $50 or less you can probably get a DCC decoder purchased and installed. From the direction, I've been getting ... if you going DCC then go DCC not half the way. Apparently once you use DCC, you won't want to go back to DC ... just like watching HDTV and then watching SDTV (Standard).
Are you planning to use your PC right away for block detection and the like ... I don't think you can get that from a Zephyr ... nonetheless, don't you want to run the trains, rather than have a computer run them for you. I can't see your layout being complicated enough for a PC, if a Zephyr is a suitable system to start. You mention that PC connectivity and the handheld throttle is an add-on down the road ... but with NCE PowerCab you get the handheld throttle right away and the PC connectivity if not readily available now, I am sure will come with time. The NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive. I remember the Beta Video Tape days. :)
The decision is yours ... and I'm just as torn as you are ... but we might have just bite the bullet and go with what our gut tells us and be conscious that our final decision won't be our last in this hobby and that our purchase decision might just become a throw away in the end. How many PCs or cell phones (remember those first "digital" phones) have we gone through in the last couple of decades?? My basement is full (XT, AT, 386, 486, P2, P3, P4, etc.) and closet is (cell 1 w single LCD line, cell 2 w single LCD line but colour, cell 3 with colour screen (wow!), to three BlackBerries later to be joined by another next week when I get my next generation in less than a year). :)
David,
Several items push me the route of Zephyr, first is no DC and second is not enough train capacity in the entry level NCE system. The Pro would certainly meet all my requirements except for DC operation and from what I've read doesn't support positive feedback to the PC for block detection and the like. At least that's what I beleive I've read here, maybe I've taken something out of context.
PC connectivity and the handheld throttle is an add on down the road not an immediate acquisition,and when it does occur the handheld will be the duplex radio variety, So an out of the box price of $159 from my local hobby shop speaks loudly to me, I'm broke as it is.
Hi John ... fellow DCC newbie David B here.
How big is you layout? I too am debating between Digitrax and NCE ... although I am leaning toward NCE for my 4x8 layout with a max of 3 trains running at a time. I am not sure why you are looking at both a Zephyr and handheld throttle ... when you can get a handheld throttle with the entry level NCE PowerCab? Why spend $250 vs. $185? If you want the handheld throttle out of the gate, maybe the larger Digitrax Systems would be best to start. I understand you want to have direct programming capabilities too and maybe not have to shutdown the system when programming (NCE), but how often are you going to be programming your locomotives? I foresee programming my locomotives initially and then just running them. I'll probably up a separate programming track as well, if and when required.
OK I think that I have a faint grasp on the slots being allocated if the MU function is invoked within the Zephyr. There are 10 slots/locos max on the Zephyr. Locos will take up one slot for each of the locos in a consist if the consist method is via the command station. If one manually consists a series of Locos, the entire consist would take up one slot, do I have this right? Either way it sounds like plenty of overhead for my layout.
If I add a handheld throttle (DT402D) does this increase the slots or augment the address space? I've gathered from this thread that sometimes extra features are added with a handheld such as sound functions however I suspect this is due primarily to the extra keys on the throttle which don't exist on the face of the Zephyr.
How reliable are the Zephyrs, if someone at a local club wanted to part with one would it behoove me to roll the dice and buy it or should I go to our LHS. I've spent a ton on cork bedding and track already at the LHS.
maxmanYou will note that nowhere in this procedure is there any requirement for you remember to add any value to any CV to change the locomotives direction to suit the other units in the consist, nor is there any reason for you to program any CV to get the engine out of the consist.
The Zephyr can do any of 3 ways of creating a consist. The simplest is setting all the locos to the same address, either a short address or long address. That works on any system. The next method usies the command station to manage the consist. On the Zephyr that limits you to 10 locos (12 actually) in a consist. Finally, there's advanced consisting using CV19. The Zephyr CN do this automatically - there's a config change to make this the default consisting method instead of command station consisting. What it really is is pretty much the same thign as giving each loco the same address - only instead of using CV1 for the address it goes in CV19 - plus there are a few additional benefits such as a couple of CVs you can set ahead of time to control which functions are active when consisted - so all 3 locos in your consist don't have their bells ringing and horns sounding. There is a limit of 127 consists, but each one can have as many locos as you have power for.
LOL that will be a bit hard to do. Seems to be beat to death already.
Springfield PA
I hope the OP got the answers he was looking for. Lets see if we can get this thread going to 20 pages. How about it?
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
CSX RobertYou program the consist address into CV19. The consist address can be any number from 1-127. If you want the engine to run backwards in the consist, you program the consist address + 128 into CV19. You then select the consist address to run the consist. To remove an engine from the consist, you program CV19 for that engine back to zero.
NCE handles this activity a little differently. With the original PowerCab you are limited to consist addresses 112 through 127. With the PowerPro, the consist address range is 1 to 127. To make a consist you push a button on the handset that is marked "setup". The command station will look to see which consist addresses have been used and suggest a consist number. So if 127 has been used, it will suggest the next number down (126). You can select that number, or use any other unused number assuming that you remember which other numbers are in use. Letting the command station select the next number eliminate the need for you to have to remember either what numbers have been used, or where the litle slip of paper you wrote this information down got to.
Then the command station will ask you what the lead unit in the consist is, and which direction is forward. Then it will ask you the trailing unit number and whether that unit needs to run in forward or reverse to go the same way as the lead unit. Then you enter whatever middle units you want as well as the proper direction for them to go. At that point you're done. You can select either the number on the side of the first engine, or the number on the side of the trailing unit, and the engines will move as a consist.
If you wish to delete one of the intermediate units in a consist, there is a delete button that you push. All you have to do is enter that unit's number and press enter. The unit will be dropped from the consist.
You will note that nowhere in this procedure is there any requirement for you remember to add any value to any CV to change the locomotives direction to suit the other units in the consist, nor is there any reason for you to program any CV to get the engine out of the consist. The command station does this all for you.
All
Thanks for the feedback, I've a good handle on all but the MU Capabilities.
CSX Robert
With regard to MU programming your comment "program it yourself (instead of letting the command station functions do it" is "programming it yourself" possible with a standalone Zephyr? Sorry but my ignorance with CV programming (manual vs command station doing it) has reached new lows. I currently can't speak intelligently on this subject for lack of experience.
Yeah I know, someone's going to suggest reading the manual. Probably not a bad idea but I still can't grasp what I feature or sub-features I might be missing with programming capabilities limited to "same address".
If I add a DT402D later on are the programming capabilities still limited to "same address" wherein MU is concerned?
OK, I guess I need to read and compare the Zephyr and Chief manuals on programming techniques.
I'll be back!
jcook01"CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play.
Digitrax really does not have a cab limit, because the cabs do not have to use addresses, but since you will rarely have more cabs than you will trains(althoug I can think of a couple instances where you could), they usually list the cab limit the same as the "slot limit." The slot limit(which is really 12 for the Zephyr, although it is advertised as being 10) for Digitrax is the number of addresses you can control at the same time. This is normally the number of engines, with each engine in a consist occupying a slot, but if you use advanced consisting and program the consists yourself, then the slot limit is the number of trains you can control.
jcook01"MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?
jcook01"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort.
jcook01"Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12.
jcook01 I read the table over on Tony's website, very informative, thank you for the link. I've a couple of questions regarding the vernacular/terminology in the table."CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play."MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort."Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12. Thanks for the feedback.
I read the table over on Tony's website, very informative, thank you for the link. I've a couple of questions regarding the vernacular/terminology in the table.
"CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play.
"MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?
"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort.
"Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12.
Thanks for the feedback.
"CAB" - Yes, to all your questions, except "not really" for 20 locos/consists on the Zephyr. No matter how many DT4*'s you plug in, the command station itself still has only 10 slots.
"MU Capabilities" - I have no idea what this means, either, especially since they list "consists" as a separate line item.
"Positioning Reporting" - What they refer to as "Xponding" is actually called Transponding, and it's Digitrax's version of two-way communication between the decoder and the DCC system. Yes, it's different from Lenz's Railcom, which is what the NMRA adapted as their standard. However, I personally don't think there's a huge demand for this, or it ("it" being NMRA making it a standard and mfr's actually producing products that support it) would have moved along much more quickly.
"Sound Support" - Yes and no. Yes, because out of the box the Zephyr has the physical buttons to only control F0 through F8. No, because the Zephyr has always had the ability to address 28 functions with a computer throttle (and the DT402-series when they became available). That's sort of like the "playable" F2 on the DT400's - It was always there (except on some very early production), even though there weren't yet any decoders on the market that could use it.
jwils1Stevert You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes. Would a stand alone MS100 work for the upgrade?
Stevert You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes.
jwils1Stevert But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them. Are you saying you can't use Panel Pro throttles with this interface?
Stevert But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them.
jwils1StevertAnd no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either. What does lack of AIU Support mean?
StevertAnd no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either.
Thanks for your input and clarifications.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
rrinker It's also old and much has changed since that was written. --Randy
It's also old and much has changed since that was written.
I'll say! In addition to what you've already mentioned:
- You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes.
- Thirteen functions is a thing of the past for most, if not all of the current DCC systems now being marketed. Plus, they don't mention that for a long time now, Digitrax systems have been able to access all 28 functions via a computer throttle even if your physical, hand-held throttle can't.
- If by feedback they mean a computer interface, then even MRC should be a "Yes". But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them. And no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either.
- No mention that Digitrax now gives you a choice of simplex or duplex radio.
- No mention that the reason the Super Chief doesn't have an NMRA Conformance certificate is because Digitrax chose not to submit it.
It's also old and much has changed since that was written. Plus there is no explanation of each item - so how do you knwo what is 'good' and what is 'bad'? Looks kinda 'bad' that the digitrax systems all say no for software upgrades, huh? Well, not really - since Digitrax is a peer to peer system there's really no reason TO upgrade the command station. The MU category is somewhat misleading for all systems. There are 3 ways to consist locos. The universal method is to simply give all the locos the same address - that's 'unlimited' for all systems - only limited by the system power. Command station consisting is generally limited to whoever many loco addresses the system can keep active at one time. And Advanced Consisting with CV19 is also pretty much unlimited with most systems, you can have 100 locos with the same consist address in CV19 - good luck getting enough power to run them all.
dsabourneI found this page on Tony's Train Exchange which is a very useful comparsion. http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm Don't forget to also read Tony's Off the Cuff DCC Comparison. David
I found this page on Tony's Train Exchange which is a very useful comparsion.
http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm
Don't forget to also read Tony's Off the Cuff DCC Comparison.
Good Find.
Ironically enough our local club is using Lenz, they like using inexepensive phones from Walmart as wireless throttles. However when asking what they use at home the majority indicated some form of Dixitrax,