I found this page on Tony's Train Exchange which is a very useful comparsion.
http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm
Don't forget to also read Tony's Off the Cuff DCC Comparison.
David
Springfield PA
David, even if it was a toss up and you found no significant advantages to one over the other, I would say go with what the locals have, simply because having local knowledge and support can be of great value. Good luck with your selection, you will have a blast once you get going with DCC.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Hamltnblue The Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some. I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place. With the Power Cab you can move around the distance of the cable which is about 10 feet. It makes a difference. Also if a you upgrade to the pro, the controller can be used as a second one for the pro system.
The Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some.
I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place. With the Power Cab you can move around the distance of the cable which is about 10 feet. It makes a difference. Also if a you upgrade to the pro, the controller can be used as a second one for the pro system.
The posts have seemed to died off ... but I'll add my comments as a current researcher of a DCC system. At first I had been leaning towards Digitrax. The system seemed to be very expandable ... which I understand it is. I took the time to read the posts here and on the Yahoo Groups ... and went out and checked various layouts during a recent open house tour. I found that a majority were using NCE systems. I took the time to talk to the owners and try out there systems to get a feel of each NCE and Digitrax as well as review the application with the dynamics of some layouts that were complex and some that were basic. I also joined a local MR club that uses NCE and was able to meet and discuss the system and it's components with a local rep of DCC systems. The advantage of not being tied to a base unit similar to my current DC power packs with a PowerCab vs. the Zephyr, as per Hamltnblue's quote above and the advantage of being able to use the PowerCab at the club as ProCab has maybe pushed me towards making a decision with NCE.
Further to my earlier comments about the posts about getting systems repaired does seem to be similar between Digitrax and NCE; and as one of latter posters noted people seem to post more when things do not go well or work, rather than post how things work well and have no problems ... since if they didn't have problems they wouldn't have time to post messages.
Thanks to Hamltnblue and others (Simon1966, Randy, Tom and others) for their contribution to this thread and insightful advice to use newbies.
Regards,
No apology necessary for sure. If someone posts a question, he should give the courtesy to monitor for answers and not wait for 2 weeks to return. After all the participants are only trying to help.
Ryan,
Once again I apologize. No I did not see his question on the last page, too self indulged.
John
simon1966Just in case anyone missed it, our OP came back with a question! Poor chap wanders off for a couple of days and 6 pages later!!! r.y.a.nso if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work? An additional cab can select and run any locomotive in your roster, it is not assigned to one specific locomotive. How it works depends on the brand you are interested in. I am thinking that you are leaning towards the NCE system and may be asking about the Cab04, in which case I will bow to the NCE experts here to describe how you select and run a loco on the 2nd cab.
Just in case anyone missed it, our OP came back with a question! Poor chap wanders off for a couple of days and 6 pages later!!!
r.y.a.nso if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
An additional cab can select and run any locomotive in your roster, it is not assigned to one specific locomotive. How it works depends on the brand you are interested in. I am thinking that you are leaning towards the NCE system and may be asking about the Cab04, in which case I will bow to the NCE experts here to describe how you select and run a loco on the 2nd cab.
LOL I don't think anyone else noticed him pop back in
RYAN, what you might be reading is with NCE you can transfer a loco from one cab to another. Each cab can still select it's own loco's .
HamltnblueThe Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some. I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place...
I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place...
jcook01 OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require. So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features? To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment. Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well. Regards, John
OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require.
So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features?
To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment.
Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well.
Regards, John
If you don't have the need for more powe,r the Zephyr plus a DT400/402 throttle would do what you want - The 400/402 are encoder based so switching between locos does not cause any speed change. I do not use the throttle knob on my Zephyr very much, nor would I buy a UT4, for that very reason. The Zephyr console throttle is great in a yard where you aren;t switchign between different runnign locos, and if you locate hte unit near the yard throat you won't be moving around much making cuts - it's all right in front of you (remember to pull yor cuts to the clearance point - the brakeman hate having to walk a trainlength to pull the pin ot hook up air hoses!). The Zephyr can run a LOT of trains, 2.5 amps is more than you think. I've had 8 going, half with sound, SImon's done at least that many as well. With N scale you'd almost certainly hit the limit of 12 (I know it says 10, but you can actually select 12 locos at the same time on the Zephyr) before you run out of power.
As for your other question - the Super EMpire Builder with the DB150 does not have a seperate progrm track - it's much like the PowerCab in that respect. In fact the automatic switcher NCE sells for the PowerCab should also work with a DB150 to disconnect the main track when going into program mode so you don;t accidently program every loco. The Super CHief with DCS100 does have the seperate program track output. Other difference is 22 simultaneous locos with the DB150, 120 with the DCS100. Plus a few other extras, like a fast clock (not very accurate - if you're serious about that, either hook up a PC and let JMRI be the time source, or get the Logic Rail Technologies fast clock). Feature-wise the Zephyr is more capable than the DB150 but slightly less than the DCS100. IMO the only purpose for the Super Empire Builder set is if you are interested in purchasing an extra booster and a throttle, the set price is less than the DB150 and a DT402 purchased seperately.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The bottom line, John: There are pluses and minuses going with either system. You just have to determine which system is going to best meet YOUR needs. I think you're going about it the right way - even if you're feeling a bit woozy from the boat ride.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
John,
The two 'Jump Throttles' work - You have to use the Zephyr throttle to 'assign' your train to them - sort of a pain if you are using that throttle to run a train. Also, no function key control of lights/sounds - just basic throttle. they should not 'shorten' the life of the Zephyr - Remember, they are not feeding power to the DCC track - The command station is 'reading' their settings and sending out commands.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I have two matching ancient but fully functional MRC DC power packs today. How well does the Zephyr DC power pack external throttle solution work? I read that I can use up to two DC packs as separate throttles on the Zephyr.
Are there any problems with doing this, shorten life of Zephyr or locos etc?
Are there any advanced programming issues with the Zephyr? I'd hate to buy a decoder with advanced features and not be able to program it.
Our LHS has the Zephyr for $159
jrbernier If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
John, Here are comments based on all you have said:
1. If you want to ease into your system....start with a Zephyr/DT402 and expand from there as needed.
2. The 2-knob DT402 allows easy running of two trains simultaneously, and a third train could be run from the Zephyr.
3. The DT402 gives you a handheld from which you could do everything. And the Z gives you that extra throttle for your daughter.
4. 2.5 amps should be plenty for your N scale layout. A booster could be added if ever needed.
5. When it's time to upgrate the DT402 to radio (and I recommend duplex), you still have the Z's throttle ro run trains while the DT402 is sent in for upgrade.
6. You can run routes from your throttles if you use Digitrax DS64 turnout decoders.
7. You can use the program track without shutting down the main.
8. You will have 28 functions.
9. Digitrax has signalling options.
10. Digitrax offers great tech support and an amazingly helpful website.
Wow, what more could a guy want
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Hmmm I don't know why but I had always thought that the Zephyr couldn't support two way comm but from your comments going with a DT402D and UR92 sure puts an end to that.
It appears that a DT402D plugged into the combination above will provide extended F13-28 sound addressing and stack recall. If so its sounds like the majority of my wish list is eventually covered except the separate programming track.
Oh sheesh, now I'm leaning back the other way torward the Zephyr again. I'm starting to feel sea sick, somebody stop this train I want off.
Is this some sort of competition for you gents.
I need to go review and see what I'm missing by going this route other than separate programming track and initially not having a stack or memory recall until a separate throttle is purchased.
Routes, macros are unavailable unless I go Chief. I think I'll have to come to terms with this, is there a way to add this feature into the above hardware compliment other than connecting a PC or buying a Chief? (EDIT: Never mind the DS64 suggestion has finally registered home.)
jcook01Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
5A will almost certainly be more than enough, my Z at half the amps can run that many locos.
For a 'home' layout - The Digitrax Zephyr and NCE Power Cab are very nice. Here are some thoughts:
Zephyr - The lack of 'remembering the last speed setting as you try to jump through a 'stack' from the built-in throttle may be a limitation. But I would normally be using a hand held throttle anyway. Running your trains from a single location is not the current direction of the hobby. And a large 'recall' stack really is not needed any way.
Power Cab - I love the NCE throttle - one of the best features of this setup. The lack of dedicated programming track could be an issue, but:
How often are you going to run trains while programming on the program track? I use my program track to either 'reset' a decoder to the factory defaults, or set the engine's number/address in the decoder. Everything else can be done by programming 'on the main'. Using the NCE 'Auto SW' will turn off power to the layout if 'blast' mode programming is done so you do not reprogram every engine on the layout - a nice feature. The 'Auto SW' will even work on a Digitrax Empire Builder.
The above said - What do I use? I have a Digitrax Super Chief with a 5 amp booster, radio throttles, etc...lots of 'over-kill' for a home layout. I also have a Digitrax Zephyr I picked up from a LHS that was going out of business. I am quite impressed with the Zephyr and would have bought one if it had been available in the late 90's when I bought the Chief series system. The Zephyr resides 'upstairs' with some Bachmann EZ Track and is used to program/test engines via Decoder Pro. I never use the built-in throttle - I just grab a DT400 series throttle from the layout and use it to run engines. Most of the programming is done on the computer with Decoder Pro.
If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
.
Simon,
Thanks, the Chief has been floating around in my thoughts as well, now I'm attempting to quantify how much power I'll require. Blocks or zones aren't a large concern, on the three door size panel layout I'll have two mainlines circumnavigating most of all three tables, a switching yard and three or four main sidings with a half a dozen small customer siding sprinkled about.
Probably no more than four trains running at any given time comprised of about 8 engines total, consisted, and four sound decoders max. Also eventually I'd like to install some local signaling (light detector) and run a few switches on the mains and sidings.
Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
Thanks, John
so if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
The greatest difference between the SEB and the SC is the lack of a dedicated program track that can read and write CV's while the rest of the layout is operational. Based on your previous desires I would not give the SEB a 2nd look and just go for the SC.
rrinker Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated.
Yes it's overrated in some respects but this is where NCE and MRC are superior. One push of the recall button and the loco that comes up is ready to control with no further button presses. If you are running more than one train this is really slick for switching back and forth.
I really like the MRC recall, not because it has a 25 loco stack (which most would never want to use), but because any loco in the stack can be immediately removed with one push of the delete button.
But having more than just a few locos in the stack isn't very useful to me.
Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated. How this works on most systems that have one is you hit the loco select button and then use either the throttle wheel or push the button to cycle through all the loco addesses currently in the recall stack. Then push the select or enter button to make your choice. So there are a minimum of 4 button presses to get to the second loco on the rcall stack. If there are 6 locos and you want #6 - 8 button presses. If you are using 4-digit addressing for all locos and they all have 4 digits in the address (ex. 1234, not 855), so select ANY loco you own, whether or not it was recently used, is 6 button presses. Always exactly the same. Some systems, liek the DT400/402 throttles from Digitrax, have a configurable size tot he recall stack, up to 16. For the 16th loco in the stack that's 18 button presses (equivalent - you can turn the knob to scroll throught he stack on a DT400) - is that REALLY faster than just keying in the address of the loco you want to operate? The disadvantage of the stack method grow when some locos have 2 and 3 digit address - for example all my switchers have 2 digit addresses following the actual prototyical cab number. My road units all have 3 digits int eh road number, not 4. So to select any loco on my layout, it's no more than 5 button presses.
Some of the Euro systems like the ESU Ecos http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ do provide more of a description based user interface, I beleive the Roco Locomouse system does as well. None of these systems are especially well entrenched in the US market, so support and local knowledge may be an issue.
Here are a couple of observations from my own experience. First of all my boys have no issues whatsoever selecting locos with any of the Digitrax throttles. They just key them in, and don't bother with the stack on the DT402's anyway
Second observation is that the previously discussed Zephyr and DT402 combination would get you going and can be built upon as your needs grow, with no real cost penalty. You can add wireless later, just plug it in and get the throttle upgraded. The cost to upgrade the DT throttle is very reasonable and does not cost anymore than if you purchased it with radio in the first place. Then if you add a Chief in the future, the Z can cease to be the command station, but will give you a 2.5A booster to run a power district. The Z throttle is great for a yard as well.
The one thing that I really like about the DT400 series throttles is the dual knob control. Having direct control over 2 locos at the same time without having to access a stack or switch is a very nice feature.
Decoder Pro software, does indeed allow for not only descriptions, but images of the locos as well. There is a throttle utility that you can get for the iPhone that allows a wireless throttle to run via the PC controlling the layout.
jcook01 One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
Digitrax is VERY good in that respect. They have designed their product so that nothing becomes obsolete after an upgrade. My understanding is that even the Zephyr can be used as a 2.5A booster. Very smart designing in my book. I think NCE has taken a page from Digitrax's philosophy in that regard in the redesign of their Smart Booster (SB3a).
Tom,
Thanks but after reading some of the functions in the F-teens there are a couple there that I'd play with.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on. I will spend a bit more now if necessary to prevent having to pull something out and shelve it later as our needs expand.
Maybe I should just jump to the wireless Chief out of the box and be done with it but I'd really prefer to incrementally buy up to that point if possible. The available entry level starter systems appear to be too limited to allow that so I guess I'm now looking at entry level mid-priced hardware.
Maxman,
Yes, I'm that lazy. I'd prefer to push the button and scroll through the list of locos and press enter. It would make easier on the kids as well. Question: Does any of the systems out there allow one to also add a description of the train stored into memory. I'm sure this probably exists in PC control software but was wondering if it's a feature on any of the hand held throttles as well.
maxman,
Perhaps "store" was a poor choice of words. What I meant to say is that you can address a locomotive with a 4-digit number from 0-9999. The address storing is actually in the decoder.
Don't fall prey to the misconception that a system less than F0-F28 is inferior. For most MRRers, F0-F8 is more than adequate. Lights (F0), bell (F1), and horn/whistle (F2) are the most commonly used. The others are more gimmicky than anything.
Hmm, it appears that EasyDCC is limited to F0-12 on the audio features side and the throttles on the control panel appear to suffer from the same malaise as the Zephyr, potentiometer only with no recall stack memory for last throttle setting for each Loco currently under steam.
Ok, scratch that one.