flyboy,
Make sure you plug your Power Cab into the LEFT connector jack of the PCP panel. (That's the side that's powered.) The RIGHT jack is for an additional throttle.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Rich, I should have prefaced my earlier statement. Yes, you could get a longer cable for your Power Cab. However, besides the reasons already given by Robert and others, a longer cable would also become a real trip hazard. As far as a 7' cable being a "disadvantage", I look at it from a different perspective. Depending on where you place your PCP panel (the one that comes with the Power Cab), that would give you an overall 14' "swing" - i.e. 7' either way. An additional UTP panel (daisy-chained to the back of the PCP panel) and another cab could be used to fill in the gaps. Or, you would go the "updated" Smart Booster route and increase your total power output (from 1.7A to 5A) and recall stack (from 2 to 6) at the same time. Choices, choices, choices... Tom
Rich,
I should have prefaced my earlier statement. Yes, you could get a longer cable for your Power Cab. However, besides the reasons already given by Robert and others, a longer cable would also become a real trip hazard.
As far as a 7' cable being a "disadvantage", I look at it from a different perspective. Depending on where you place your PCP panel (the one that comes with the Power Cab), that would give you an overall 14' "swing" - i.e. 7' either way. An additional UTP panel (daisy-chained to the back of the PCP panel) and another cab could be used to fill in the gaps.
Or, you would go the "updated" Smart Booster route and increase your total power output (from 1.7A to 5A) and recall stack (from 2 to 6) at the same time.
Choices, choices, choices...
Tom,
I will share the blame.
Instead of asking, wouldn't you be able to replace the 7' cable with a longer one to allow even greater freedom to move around the layout, I should have asked, could you replace the 7' cable with a longer one to allow even greater freedom to move around the layout?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainmaxman tstageYou could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to. Are we sure about this? The PowerCab instructions suggest that the track bus wire should be #18 for runs to 25 feet, and #16 for runs to 50 feet. I don't think the flat wire has that heavy wire gage...or does it? maxman, So, are you saying that 7 feet is it? If true, that would be a real disadvantage for the Power Cab. Rich
maxman tstageYou could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to. Are we sure about this? The PowerCab instructions suggest that the track bus wire should be #18 for runs to 25 feet, and #16 for runs to 50 feet. I don't think the flat wire has that heavy wire gage...or does it?
tstageYou could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to.
Are we sure about this? The PowerCab instructions suggest that the track bus wire should be #18 for runs to 25 feet, and #16 for runs to 50 feet. I don't think the flat wire has that heavy wire gage...or does it?
maxman,
So, are you saying that 7 feet is it?
If true, that would be a real disadvantage for the Power Cab.
Why wait? You can run a short run while re-building
Springfield PA
Cooped OK, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy. Dan
OK, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy.
Dan
Congrats Dan ... you're way ahead of me ... I still need to get the layout back together ... maybe getting some locos converted and then purchase my own PowerCab.
Jealous,
David Bourne
The cable supplies track power through the Powercab. Adding longer cables will contribute to voltage drop. 12 feet may be OK but 40 would definitely be pushing your luck.
Congrats dan and good luck with it. You'll get use to it quickly. If you wind up with a dcc sound loco it has a method to play the horn/whistle. Also try running in yard mode if switching. The thumb wheel will move the loco in both fwd and reverse without having to hit the direction switch.
Familiarize yourself with the emergency stop function. One push will stop the loco you are addressed for. Hitting it 3 times fast will shut down the track and all loco's.
Yes you would, Rich. You could get a 12' or 40' cable, if you wanted to. Or, you could go with the Smart Booster and a couple of UTP panels, too. Obviously, the ultimate in freedom would be to go wireless.
tstage The command station, booster, and throttle are rolled up into one. So, if you disconnect the Power Cab from your layout, it will shut down the layout. However, it comes with a 7' long cable that allows you some freedom to move around your layout, albeit tethered. Tom
The command station, booster, and throttle are rolled up into one. So, if you disconnect the Power Cab from your layout, it will shut down the layout. However, it comes with a 7' long cable that allows you some freedom to move around your layout, albeit tethered.
Wouldn't you be able to replace the 7' cable with a longer one to allow even greater freedom to move around the layout?
Good for you Dan, welcome to the wonderful world of DCC. I hope you have many years of enjoyment out of the system.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Cooped Ok, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy. Dan
Ok, the Powercab arrived today. Plugged it in and off we go. even programmed a couple of loco numbers and tried changing start voltage. Very happy.
Congratulations. I think you'll be very happy.
Regards
That's the one! Still waiting for delivery, I'll report back when it arrives and how I get on with it.
CoopedApparently NCE and whoever the middle one was were pretty much the same so maybe someone who knows more than me will know who it was.
That would have been Wangrow System One.
I think it's funny to watch these post with several getting defensive of their choice.
There are others that will use a few key words to get things riled up which I find even funnier.
I think you will find that most Digitrax users are not in the least bit defensive that there are groups of happy NCE users. I for one welcome that, as strong competition in the market place does everyone good. If NCE and others were not nipping at the heels of Digitrax there would be no real incentive to continue to develop and improve the system. Does anyone really believe that Digitrax would have bothered to come out with Duplex radio, when the simplex worked so well, if it were not for competitive pressure?
Conversely, do you really think NCE would have come out with the Power Cab, had not Digitrax been so incredibly successful at defining the entry level DCC market with the Zephyr?
Things do get defensive when the old tired mantras are trotted out that are in direct contrast to the Digitrax users own experience. That is when you will read and hear howls of protest.
Ok, the deed is done. He didn't have any powercabs in stock, just a power pro so he's ordered it for me. I could have ordered it online for maybe $20 or $30 less, but I figured this guy could be a good resource for me in the future so gave him the sale. Strange, he's literally 5 minutes drive from me and I never knew he was there!
He also only carries one brand, gave me a story of starting with Digitrax, then going to something I'd never heard of and can't remember what he said, then went to NCE when the guy who ran the middle one died. Apparently NCE and whoever the middle one was were pretty much the same so maybe someone who knows more than me will know who it was.
maxman simon1966To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity. Hmmmmmmm, interesting that you should say this. My recent perception is that the Digitrax owners seem to get very defensive when any comparisons are made. But then I'm surrounded by a bunch of happy NCE users. Must be the environment.
simon1966To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity.
Hmmmmmmm, interesting that you should say this. My recent perception is that the Digitrax owners seem to get very defensive when any comparisons are made. But then I'm surrounded by a bunch of happy NCE users. Must be the environment.
That's about right on, considering most of the things Apple says about PCs are utterly untrue
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
CoopedI still can't pursuade myself to look further into Digitrax. The fact still remains to get what I want I would have to pay more for the starter for the Zephyr and a handheld control.
Dan, that is just fine, the basic configuration does not meet your particular needs and you don't perceive any value in spending a bit more to get the dual throttle. The process of research and elimination is working for you. It is not the decision I would have made, but our needs are not the same. I know which I would choose of the 2 systems remaining on your list, and frankly I am pleased to hear that you are going to see a DCC dealer that carries more than just the MRC system. BTW, do the Digitrax guy a favor and tell him to list the Z on E-bay, he will sell it in a heartbeat, they don't last long in that environment, of course if he wants the $199 list price, he will have a hard time selling it. There are many web places to get it for a lot less than that.
Thanks everyone. Randy, that's a fantastic suggestion to use the switch to toggle between DC and DCC, I'll do that.
I was thinking about PC connectivity. I had gone off the MRC product as I'd heard it had no connectivity at all. Then I found it was capable with their own proprietry software.
I did find it hard to choose between MRC and NCE and was fully prepared to buy the powercab if I found it on my travels yesterday. I was eventually persuaded to the MRC by the hobby store guy and the discounts available right now for the Advance2 system. I'm now re-thinking this. I've found another hobby store through the NCE website that is local to me so I'm going to take a trip there this afternoon.
It's kind of hard to tell what's opinion and hearsay and what's fact when researching all this. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's finding the more I read and hear the more confused I get! I still can't pursuade myself to look further into Digitrax. The fact still remains to get what I want I would have to pay more for the starter for the Zephyr and a handheld control.
If this guy has the NCE Powercab this afternoon I will probably buy it from him. Otherwise I'll probably order online.
Thanks again.
yankee flyerI think the controversy between NCE and Digitraxx hinge's on what you get used to and past experience. I had a Zephyr and it was a disaster.After sending it back for the fourth time I ask and received my money back. I plugged in my Power Cab and never looked back.
I agree, just like you there are others that have sent back Power Cabs and gone to Digitrax, these are all small companies and not everything is perfect the first time. In the case of my friend they gave up waiting for a booster that would work with an auto-reverser. This is now fixed by NCE with the latest booster, but took rather a long time, or at least too long for my friend.
But truthfully I think that the real root of the controversy stems from the fact that the Digitrax system fairly quickly became the dominant DCC system in the USA. The mantra of "Buy Digitrax, everyone else does" was very common indeed. NCE in the mean time, builds an excellent device that most certainly was, and some would say still is, easier to use, and for sure had better documentation.
To me the NCE crowd assumed the role of the smarmy Apple commercial guy, happy to knock the "Big Dog" at any and every opportunity. You know the mantra......"Need to be an engineer to use, .....have to use single handed as the other hand is holding the manual..... is it really wireless when you have to plug in to acquire a locomotive.......etc....etc...."
The thing is, that this stuff was right to a degree, but in most cases is rooted in the past rather than in the current state of things. Both NCE and Digitrax and constantly evolving, developing new product and enhancing older products, like improving documentation for example.
Digitrax has a much broader DCC product range, that is able to provide more comprehensive solutions and complex systems. NCE is working hard to catch up expanding its line of DCC add-ons and accessories. Each of these manufacturers works hard to provide a quality product and both support their products well. We are really very fortunate to have 2 domestic manufacturers dedicated to the market to this degree.
In then end, each of us make a choice based on personal wants and needs. Opinions and hearsay based on an old outdated mantra, don't do anyone any good. I think it is best to deal in facts, and by gaining a good understanding of what these potentially complex system can do for you and honing in on the features that best meet your needs.
dsabourneAs you can see on my posts ... I'm leaning towards a NCE PowerCab. David
As you can see on my posts ... I'm leaning towards a NCE PowerCab.
David
I think the controversy between NCE and Digitraxx hinge's on what you get used to and past experience. I had a Zephyr and it was a disaster.After sending it back for the fourth time I ask and received my money back. I plugged in my Power Cab and never looked back. The first Zephyr smoked, second one worked a while and quit, third was erratic. I use Power Cab with Decoder Pro and if I want to program a loco I flip a switch that directs tower to a test track and not to the main track.
I like the programing on the Power Cab for quick change's.
My thoughts.
Lee
Dan,
Looking at just two dealers(one with a Digitrax Zephyr who is clueless, and a second one who is pushing just MRC) sends up red flags to me.
First, you need to understand what DCC can do, and what you want out of DCC. As much as you are thinking 'simple' and 'ease of use' - You need to find out what you really want to do with DCC. I have used just about every DCC system available(except for some of the exotic European stuff like Zimo).
MRC - Basic system, Very nice throttles. They lack a JMRI interface to a home computer. You may not think this is important right now, but programming anything other than the basic engine address is best done via a computer. MRC has a proprietary interface that only works with their software to their decoders(some of the worst failure rates out of the box).
Digitrax - The 'Big Dog'. Expandable systems, lots of stuff will work with their system The 'cons' are the original manuals and the old DT100/DT300 throttles. To many button sequences to push. The DT400 series throttles are very good to use.
NCE - Another super system with lots of expansion, and really great throttles. Full JMRI support to a home computer.
Lenz - Good H/W, but somewhat 'dated' systems at this point. JMRI capable as well. They started the DCC revolution.
Easy DCC - A sort of 'DIY' kit system that is good, but again is somewhat 'dated' at this point. JMRI computer capable.
Bachmann - EZ Command & Dynamis. EZ Command will run a DCC engine as long as the address is a single digit, and there is no programming capabilities for Configuration Variables - No computer interface. The Dynamis is a little more high end - I have never used one.
Note that I have made a big point about a computer interface. I have lost track of how many time folks have told me that they really have no interest/need to hook a computer up to their trains. Without fail, the same folks tell me 6 months later that they want to know how to hook up a computer. Once they have seen JMRI/Decoder Pro used to 'program' an engine vs pushing buttons on their throttle - They are sold. Both the NCE 'Power Cab' system and the Digitrax 'Zephyr' system are expandable and can be hooked up to a home computer running JMRI(which is FREE).
Most LHS's I have been in have been pretty clueless about the DCC they are selling. Our LHS had some Digitrax stuff and I helped them set up a demo test track and within 2 months they were actually selling at least one Digitrax system every week. Caboose Hobbies in Denver has a sample of several systems/throttles with some sales folks who can actually demonstrate the product. Talk to some other local modelers about what they use if there really is no LHS support in your area. I would not want you to spend over $200 on a 'dead-end' system.
I have a Digitrax system - and love it. One of my best friends has a NCE system. We had a layout hop/tour Friday evening/Saturday morning - 7 layouts:
4 Digitrax
1 NCE
2 DC
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Dan:
I would say DON'T DO THAT - it makes it very easy to leave both DC and DCC connected at the same time, with potentially disasterous results where the DCC system is concerned. If you really must have both, use one set of bus and feed wires, and put a DPDT CENTER OFF toggle switch between the DC and DCC systems. Center Off so that there's not chance of a make before break contact that owuld connect both systems together. Either run the entire layout on DC or the entire layotu on DCC, do not mix the two.
As for the "need to be an engineer to understand Digitrax" this is becomign a broken record. There is NOTHING with a Digitrax system that is inherently more complex than any other system. In fact with most of the others you need to set a unique address for each cab you plug in. And some addresses only work with radio cabs, and some only with plug in cabs. Do the proponents of the other systems ever mention that? With Digitrax, you just plug in the new cab and start using it. Nothing to congigure, no need to check a setting on the command station to make sure it allows enough cabs.
The new MRC ad on the back of the latest MR is a real hoot. One step address programmign whereas all the others are 3, 4, 5? I guess it depends on what your definition of 'step' is, because I really doubt the MRC has a magic button that says Address that you press and key in the address you want and press nothing else - that would be one step. By that definition, Digitrax actually probably has the fewest 'steps' since when you hit the Program button the first thing it assumes is you are programming an address. Pick 2 or 4 digit, type in the number (or use the dials) press enter, and confirm with a Yes. Done. Doesn't sound like it needs an engineer to me. And MRC claims they have only a small manual, not the huge book the others do - perhaps because the other brands like Digitrax and NCE actually tell you IN DETAIL about everything their systems can do, MRC seems to be hiding something - or maybe it just doesn't have as many features. Wow, MRC has the basic operations listed on the back of the handheld - that's a nice feature to have it there for you, but I've seen Digitrax and NCE people do the same, you just have to print out the list yourself and tape it on the back. Hardly Earth-shatteringly innovative. I'll give MRC props for doing it, they probably saw users of the other brnads making cheat sheets like that long before MRC had a worthwhile DCC system so they decided to incorporate it as a feature, something the others haven't thought to do.
Forgot to say. I'm also planning on trying to run some DC trains on the same layout. It's not going to be huge so I thought I'd wire a second bus for a DC controller so when I wanted to run DC I'd just disconnect the DCC controller from it's bus and connect the DC controller to it's one and off we go. I'm not going to go crazy on attaching the DC line as frequently as the DCC, just a couple of places probably. Think that should be ok.
Hi
I'm a newbie also looking into what DCC system to go for. I made the mistake of buying the Athearn Big Boy DCC with Sound last week thinking I'd play around on DC for a while then upgrade to DCC in a few years. Trouble is I'm now hooked and want to play with it's full capabilities.
Anyway, I've read all the threads I could find on here plus all the reviews on everything I could find and ended up with the conclusion I was after either the NCE powercab or MRC Prodigy Advance2. Just took a trip to my 2 local hobby stores for some human interaction about the subject, thought I'd share their advice in case it can help someone. The first only stocks the MRC product, both the Prodigy Express and Prodigy Advance2. He said he basically just stocks what he personally hasn't had trouble with. Seems he was talking more about ease of use rather than quality issues. He commented on Digitrax saying you need to be an engineer to figure out how to use it. I'm not an engineer (chemist, so close) and don't feel like stretching my brain too far when really I'm just playing. Anyway, he pretty much sealed me on the MRC product with his personal experience with it. The second hobby store, which is more of a craft store with a stash of train stuff in the back corner didn't stock anything except an old Digitrax Zephyr collecting dust in the back. I told him that unfortunately that was one I'd already ruled out and he wasn't too surprised. He said basically noone wants it as it doesn't come with the hand held unit.
I'm not trying to knock Digitrax, obviously there are plenty of people here who love it, just passing on the opinions of the 2 hobby shops I went to today. Basically my thinking for my decision was I wanted something with a hand held cab, I wanted it to be upgradable, easy to use, access to all 28 possible functions (maybe one day I'll want my train to sound like a cow or whatever strange sounds are in those higher functions). I'm probably never going to have a monstrous layout, but I don't want to have to change completely if I ever (maybe I'll hit that megamillions jackpot one day) do. The MRC Prodigy Express seemed too limiting and wasn't easily upgradable apparently (although you could use it as a cab on a advance system I think). I was turned off the Zephyr as it didn't come with the handheld cab and seems to be a little limited without it, the speed thing when switching trains is a big turn off for me. The Zephyr plus the hand held throttle put the price above my budget. It was then down to the NCE Powercab or the MRC Prodigy Advance2, there are some good discounts available on the internet right now on the MRC so price is similar. The MRC product appears to have more value in it, i.e. does more stuff. It looks like it competes with the NCE PowerPro so the MRC it is. Oh and MRR staff also seem to use it in their loco reviews, I would assume they know a thing or 2.
MRC doesn't seem to have too many fans on this forum, but I think it's the one for me.
Thanks Gents for correcting me ... but know I am just as confused as ever.
NCE PowerCab or Digitrax System of some kind ...
Gents,
Thanks for the information, I've made my decision.
Regards, John
Yes, that's definitely WAY backwards. There are more third party products for Loconet then there are other systems combined. If there's a Beta/VHS comparison, Loconet is the VHS in terms of multiple vendor support (but the Beta in terms of technical capabilities). This was brought up previously in this thread somewhere, but ONLY Digitrax Loconet lets the computer interface see EVERYTHING that goes on - when someone changes speed of the loco they are running, when someone operates a turnout, etc. So where the others require some sort of input board to connect to be able to know, for example, turnout position, you don't with Loconet. A virtual control panel in JMRI will 'see' the turnout position regardless if it's changed via said control panel or someone dials up the address on their throttle. Everything happens with that single bus, which you'd run anyway to connect to the throttle plug-ins or the wireless receivers. NCE now has a signal system - but if you look you'll see that it connects to both the cab bus AND it has a secondary bus to link among the signal modules.
In addition to all the commercial Loconet products (which Digitrax advertises right on their own web site! Yes, competitive products linked right on their web site), there are tons of DIY projects of various levels. Some like Hans Deloof's I/O boards, are basically soldering kits, others require a bit more ability as to programming the controller chips. In the early days it was said that Digitrax;'s policy of licensing Loconet would mean it would be doomed - but the only person who seems to have missed out if Keith at CVP who made his wireless throttle sfor his own system as well as Lenx but refused to make a Loconet version because, he claims, of the licensing. I did once mention that to one of the Loconet device vendors listed in the previous message, and without revealing details, learned that this licensing fee is pennies - if paying said fee to Digitrax for a commercial product is going to make or break your business, you need a different business model. In other words - insignificant. They aren't making their money off license fees, it's just to keep everyone honest and cover testing and certification - all the commercial third party products have been tested by Digitrax to be compatible.
dsabourneAre you planning to use your PC right away for block detection and the like ... I don't think you can get that from a Zephyr
dsabourneThe NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive.
jcook01The Pro would certainly meet all my requirements except for DC operation and from what I've read doesn't support positive feedback to the PC for block detection and the like. At least that's what I beleive I've read here, maybe I've taken something out of context.
dsabourne but with NCE PowerCab you get the handheld throttle right away and the PC connectivity if not readily available now, I am sure will come with time. The NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive. I remember the Beta Video Tape days. :)
I think you got this wrong way round. A PC interface is already available for the Powecab and has been for some time. It has some limitations as explained on the JMRI Decoder Pro web site. There are very few 3rd party products and applications for NCE, and several for Digitrax. In fact I think most people that choose Digitrax and Loconet do so specifically because it is the least restrictive of the systems and has far more 3rd party support. Take the PC interface for example, with the Zephyr you could add the Digitrax made PR3 or the RR Circuits Locobuffer USB, either of which offer full bidirectional communication between the Loconet command station and the PC. Plus if you add either of them it does not consume one of your CAB slots.
John,
The idea of running DC with Zephyr for me too was an initial incentive ... however, I have talked too and read on these forums and groups, says don't do so! I am not an electrical engineer, but a civil engineer and trying to push an AC circuit through a DC motor directly is not a good idea. For around, $50 or less you can probably get a DCC decoder purchased and installed. From the direction, I've been getting ... if you going DCC then go DCC not half the way. Apparently once you use DCC, you won't want to go back to DC ... just like watching HDTV and then watching SDTV (Standard).
Are you planning to use your PC right away for block detection and the like ... I don't think you can get that from a Zephyr ... nonetheless, don't you want to run the trains, rather than have a computer run them for you. I can't see your layout being complicated enough for a PC, if a Zephyr is a suitable system to start. You mention that PC connectivity and the handheld throttle is an add-on down the road ... but with NCE PowerCab you get the handheld throttle right away and the PC connectivity if not readily available now, I am sure will come with time. The NCE circuit and third party add-ons seem to be growing. The Digitrax path and LocoNet compatibility seem to be restrictive. I remember the Beta Video Tape days. :)
The decision is yours ... and I'm just as torn as you are ... but we might have just bite the bullet and go with what our gut tells us and be conscious that our final decision won't be our last in this hobby and that our purchase decision might just become a throw away in the end. How many PCs or cell phones (remember those first "digital" phones) have we gone through in the last couple of decades?? My basement is full (XT, AT, 386, 486, P2, P3, P4, etc.) and closet is (cell 1 w single LCD line, cell 2 w single LCD line but colour, cell 3 with colour screen (wow!), to three BlackBerries later to be joined by another next week when I get my next generation in less than a year). :)
David,
Several items push me the route of Zephyr, first is no DC and second is not enough train capacity in the entry level NCE system. The Pro would certainly meet all my requirements except for DC operation and from what I've read doesn't support positive feedback to the PC for block detection and the like. At least that's what I beleive I've read here, maybe I've taken something out of context.
PC connectivity and the handheld throttle is an add on down the road not an immediate acquisition,and when it does occur the handheld will be the duplex radio variety, So an out of the box price of $159 from my local hobby shop speaks loudly to me, I'm broke as it is.
Hi John ... fellow DCC newbie David B here.
How big is you layout? I too am debating between Digitrax and NCE ... although I am leaning toward NCE for my 4x8 layout with a max of 3 trains running at a time. I am not sure why you are looking at both a Zephyr and handheld throttle ... when you can get a handheld throttle with the entry level NCE PowerCab? Why spend $250 vs. $185? If you want the handheld throttle out of the gate, maybe the larger Digitrax Systems would be best to start. I understand you want to have direct programming capabilities too and maybe not have to shutdown the system when programming (NCE), but how often are you going to be programming your locomotives? I foresee programming my locomotives initially and then just running them. I'll probably up a separate programming track as well, if and when required.
OK I think that I have a faint grasp on the slots being allocated if the MU function is invoked within the Zephyr. There are 10 slots/locos max on the Zephyr. Locos will take up one slot for each of the locos in a consist if the consist method is via the command station. If one manually consists a series of Locos, the entire consist would take up one slot, do I have this right? Either way it sounds like plenty of overhead for my layout.
If I add a handheld throttle (DT402D) does this increase the slots or augment the address space? I've gathered from this thread that sometimes extra features are added with a handheld such as sound functions however I suspect this is due primarily to the extra keys on the throttle which don't exist on the face of the Zephyr.
How reliable are the Zephyrs, if someone at a local club wanted to part with one would it behoove me to roll the dice and buy it or should I go to our LHS. I've spent a ton on cork bedding and track already at the LHS.
maxmanYou will note that nowhere in this procedure is there any requirement for you remember to add any value to any CV to change the locomotives direction to suit the other units in the consist, nor is there any reason for you to program any CV to get the engine out of the consist.
The Zephyr can do any of 3 ways of creating a consist. The simplest is setting all the locos to the same address, either a short address or long address. That works on any system. The next method usies the command station to manage the consist. On the Zephyr that limits you to 10 locos (12 actually) in a consist. Finally, there's advanced consisting using CV19. The Zephyr CN do this automatically - there's a config change to make this the default consisting method instead of command station consisting. What it really is is pretty much the same thign as giving each loco the same address - only instead of using CV1 for the address it goes in CV19 - plus there are a few additional benefits such as a couple of CVs you can set ahead of time to control which functions are active when consisted - so all 3 locos in your consist don't have their bells ringing and horns sounding. There is a limit of 127 consists, but each one can have as many locos as you have power for.
LOL that will be a bit hard to do. Seems to be beat to death already.
I hope the OP got the answers he was looking for. Lets see if we can get this thread going to 20 pages. How about it?
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
CSX RobertYou program the consist address into CV19. The consist address can be any number from 1-127. If you want the engine to run backwards in the consist, you program the consist address + 128 into CV19. You then select the consist address to run the consist. To remove an engine from the consist, you program CV19 for that engine back to zero.
NCE handles this activity a little differently. With the original PowerCab you are limited to consist addresses 112 through 127. With the PowerPro, the consist address range is 1 to 127. To make a consist you push a button on the handset that is marked "setup". The command station will look to see which consist addresses have been used and suggest a consist number. So if 127 has been used, it will suggest the next number down (126). You can select that number, or use any other unused number assuming that you remember which other numbers are in use. Letting the command station select the next number eliminate the need for you to have to remember either what numbers have been used, or where the litle slip of paper you wrote this information down got to.
Then the command station will ask you what the lead unit in the consist is, and which direction is forward. Then it will ask you the trailing unit number and whether that unit needs to run in forward or reverse to go the same way as the lead unit. Then you enter whatever middle units you want as well as the proper direction for them to go. At that point you're done. You can select either the number on the side of the first engine, or the number on the side of the trailing unit, and the engines will move as a consist.
If you wish to delete one of the intermediate units in a consist, there is a delete button that you push. All you have to do is enter that unit's number and press enter. The unit will be dropped from the consist.
You will note that nowhere in this procedure is there any requirement for you remember to add any value to any CV to change the locomotives direction to suit the other units in the consist, nor is there any reason for you to program any CV to get the engine out of the consist. The command station does this all for you.
All
Thanks for the feedback, I've a good handle on all but the MU Capabilities.
CSX Robert
With regard to MU programming your comment "program it yourself (instead of letting the command station functions do it" is "programming it yourself" possible with a standalone Zephyr? Sorry but my ignorance with CV programming (manual vs command station doing it) has reached new lows. I currently can't speak intelligently on this subject for lack of experience.
Yeah I know, someone's going to suggest reading the manual. Probably not a bad idea but I still can't grasp what I feature or sub-features I might be missing with programming capabilities limited to "same address".
If I add a DT402D later on are the programming capabilities still limited to "same address" wherein MU is concerned?
OK, I guess I need to read and compare the Zephyr and Chief manuals on programming techniques.
I'll be back!
jcook01"CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play.
Digitrax really does not have a cab limit, because the cabs do not have to use addresses, but since you will rarely have more cabs than you will trains(althoug I can think of a couple instances where you could), they usually list the cab limit the same as the "slot limit." The slot limit(which is really 12 for the Zephyr, although it is advertised as being 10) for Digitrax is the number of addresses you can control at the same time. This is normally the number of engines, with each engine in a consist occupying a slot, but if you use advanced consisting and program the consists yourself, then the slot limit is the number of trains you can control.
jcook01"MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?
jcook01"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort.
jcook01"Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12.
jcook01 I read the table over on Tony's website, very informative, thank you for the link. I've a couple of questions regarding the vernacular/terminology in the table."CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play."MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort."Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12. Thanks for the feedback.
I read the table over on Tony's website, very informative, thank you for the link. I've a couple of questions regarding the vernacular/terminology in the table.
"CAB" - I've not seen anything in writing that definitively states what a CAB is. Is it a throttle, whether its tethered, wireless or stationary such as the Zephyr? In the instance of the Zephyr a 10 cab limit means 10 each DT402D's, ie control of 20 engines or consists (two throttles on each DT402D) without having to enter new engines or consists? A bit over the top but just trying to see how the limitations come into play.
"MU Capabilities" - OK, I've no idea what this means, can someone please school me? The table lists "Same address" on the Zephyr as apposed to some positive integer listed on the other models. Now to me this sounds like a bad thing or a limited feature. Can someone please explain what's at play here?
"Positioning Reporting" - for DigiTrax this is listed as Xponding, is this good or bad, limited with comparison to others listed as NMRA compatible? I'm not sure what this feature does other than two way communication of some sort.
"Sound Support" - on the Zephyr, is the "Full" categorization incorrect, I thought that out of the box without a handheld CAB (correct use of terminology here?) the Zephyr only supports F0-12.
Thanks for the feedback.
"CAB" - Yes, to all your questions, except "not really" for 20 locos/consists on the Zephyr. No matter how many DT4*'s you plug in, the command station itself still has only 10 slots.
"MU Capabilities" - I have no idea what this means, either, especially since they list "consists" as a separate line item.
"Positioning Reporting" - What they refer to as "Xponding" is actually called Transponding, and it's Digitrax's version of two-way communication between the decoder and the DCC system. Yes, it's different from Lenz's Railcom, which is what the NMRA adapted as their standard. However, I personally don't think there's a huge demand for this, or it ("it" being NMRA making it a standard and mfr's actually producing products that support it) would have moved along much more quickly.
"Sound Support" - Yes and no. Yes, because out of the box the Zephyr has the physical buttons to only control F0 through F8. No, because the Zephyr has always had the ability to address 28 functions with a computer throttle (and the DT402-series when they became available). That's sort of like the "playable" F2 on the DT400's - It was always there (except on some very early production), even though there weren't yet any decoders on the market that could use it.
jwils1Stevert You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes. Would a stand alone MS100 work for the upgrade?
Stevert You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes.
jwils1Stevert But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them. Are you saying you can't use Panel Pro throttles with this interface?
Stevert But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them.
jwils1StevertAnd no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either. What does lack of AIU Support mean?
StevertAnd no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either.
Thanks for your input and clarifications.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
rrinker It's also old and much has changed since that was written. --Randy
It's also old and much has changed since that was written.
I'll say! In addition to what you've already mentioned:
- You CAN upgrade the software on the DT402-series of throttles, and you don't have to send them back to the factory to have it done. A computer and a LocoBuffer or a PR3 is all it takes.
- Thirteen functions is a thing of the past for most, if not all of the current DCC systems now being marketed. Plus, they don't mention that for a long time now, Digitrax systems have been able to access all 28 functions via a computer throttle even if your physical, hand-held throttle can't.
- If by feedback they mean a computer interface, then even MRC should be a "Yes". But they fail to mention that the NCE PowerPro's computer interface doesn't echo throttle commands, so your computer can't take direct action on them. And no mention of the limitations of the NCE USB adapter, either.
- No mention that Digitrax now gives you a choice of simplex or duplex radio.
- No mention that the reason the Super Chief doesn't have an NMRA Conformance certificate is because Digitrax chose not to submit it.
It's also old and much has changed since that was written. Plus there is no explanation of each item - so how do you knwo what is 'good' and what is 'bad'? Looks kinda 'bad' that the digitrax systems all say no for software upgrades, huh? Well, not really - since Digitrax is a peer to peer system there's really no reason TO upgrade the command station. The MU category is somewhat misleading for all systems. There are 3 ways to consist locos. The universal method is to simply give all the locos the same address - that's 'unlimited' for all systems - only limited by the system power. Command station consisting is generally limited to whoever many loco addresses the system can keep active at one time. And Advanced Consisting with CV19 is also pretty much unlimited with most systems, you can have 100 locos with the same consist address in CV19 - good luck getting enough power to run them all.
dsabourneI found this page on Tony's Train Exchange which is a very useful comparsion. http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm Don't forget to also read Tony's Off the Cuff DCC Comparison. David
I found this page on Tony's Train Exchange which is a very useful comparsion.
http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm
Don't forget to also read Tony's Off the Cuff DCC Comparison.
Good Find.
Ironically enough our local club is using Lenz, they like using inexepensive phones from Walmart as wireless throttles. However when asking what they use at home the majority indicated some form of Dixitrax,
David, even if it was a toss up and you found no significant advantages to one over the other, I would say go with what the locals have, simply because having local knowledge and support can be of great value. Good luck with your selection, you will have a blast once you get going with DCC.
Hamltnblue The Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some. I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place. With the Power Cab you can move around the distance of the cable which is about 10 feet. It makes a difference. Also if a you upgrade to the pro, the controller can be used as a second one for the pro system.
The Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some.
I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place. With the Power Cab you can move around the distance of the cable which is about 10 feet. It makes a difference. Also if a you upgrade to the pro, the controller can be used as a second one for the pro system.
The posts have seemed to died off ... but I'll add my comments as a current researcher of a DCC system. At first I had been leaning towards Digitrax. The system seemed to be very expandable ... which I understand it is. I took the time to read the posts here and on the Yahoo Groups ... and went out and checked various layouts during a recent open house tour. I found that a majority were using NCE systems. I took the time to talk to the owners and try out there systems to get a feel of each NCE and Digitrax as well as review the application with the dynamics of some layouts that were complex and some that were basic. I also joined a local MR club that uses NCE and was able to meet and discuss the system and it's components with a local rep of DCC systems. The advantage of not being tied to a base unit similar to my current DC power packs with a PowerCab vs. the Zephyr, as per Hamltnblue's quote above and the advantage of being able to use the PowerCab at the club as ProCab has maybe pushed me towards making a decision with NCE.
Further to my earlier comments about the posts about getting systems repaired does seem to be similar between Digitrax and NCE; and as one of latter posters noted people seem to post more when things do not go well or work, rather than post how things work well and have no problems ... since if they didn't have problems they wouldn't have time to post messages.
Thanks to Hamltnblue and others (Simon1966, Randy, Tom and others) for their contribution to this thread and insightful advice to use newbies.
Regards,
No apology necessary for sure. If someone posts a question, he should give the courtesy to monitor for answers and not wait for 2 weeks to return. After all the participants are only trying to help.
Ryan,
Once again I apologize. No I did not see his question on the last page, too self indulged.
John
simon1966Just in case anyone missed it, our OP came back with a question! Poor chap wanders off for a couple of days and 6 pages later!!! r.y.a.nso if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work? An additional cab can select and run any locomotive in your roster, it is not assigned to one specific locomotive. How it works depends on the brand you are interested in. I am thinking that you are leaning towards the NCE system and may be asking about the Cab04, in which case I will bow to the NCE experts here to describe how you select and run a loco on the 2nd cab.
Just in case anyone missed it, our OP came back with a question! Poor chap wanders off for a couple of days and 6 pages later!!!
r.y.a.nso if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
An additional cab can select and run any locomotive in your roster, it is not assigned to one specific locomotive. How it works depends on the brand you are interested in. I am thinking that you are leaning towards the NCE system and may be asking about the Cab04, in which case I will bow to the NCE experts here to describe how you select and run a loco on the 2nd cab.
LOL I don't think anyone else noticed him pop back in
RYAN, what you might be reading is with NCE you can transfer a loco from one cab to another. Each cab can still select it's own loco's .
HamltnblueThe Zephyr has another neat feature. You can put it on a cart and move it around some. I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place...
I hear good things about it but I see it as being like a power pack that sits in one place...
jcook01 OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require. So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features? To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment. Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well. Regards, John
OK so recall stack isn't all that and a bag of chips however remembering the last throttle setting used for all locos in memory would still be a deal closer for me. So unfortunately that still makes the Zephyr a no go and the PowerCab doesn't support other basic features I require.
So going the next tier up what's the major differences between the empire builder CPU board and that contained in the Chief? Other than two communication from your layout to the CPU does the Empire have any other limited features?
To reiterate the lack of DC support on the NCE as well as separate powered programming track has pushed that lower on the list. Not completely off the radar but I'd prefer to focus on the two upper tiers from Digitrax for the moment.
Once again I apologize for hijacking this thread but I hope the author is reading and learning as well.
If you don't have the need for more powe,r the Zephyr plus a DT400/402 throttle would do what you want - The 400/402 are encoder based so switching between locos does not cause any speed change. I do not use the throttle knob on my Zephyr very much, nor would I buy a UT4, for that very reason. The Zephyr console throttle is great in a yard where you aren;t switchign between different runnign locos, and if you locate hte unit near the yard throat you won't be moving around much making cuts - it's all right in front of you (remember to pull yor cuts to the clearance point - the brakeman hate having to walk a trainlength to pull the pin ot hook up air hoses!). The Zephyr can run a LOT of trains, 2.5 amps is more than you think. I've had 8 going, half with sound, SImon's done at least that many as well. With N scale you'd almost certainly hit the limit of 12 (I know it says 10, but you can actually select 12 locos at the same time on the Zephyr) before you run out of power.
As for your other question - the Super EMpire Builder with the DB150 does not have a seperate progrm track - it's much like the PowerCab in that respect. In fact the automatic switcher NCE sells for the PowerCab should also work with a DB150 to disconnect the main track when going into program mode so you don;t accidently program every loco. The Super CHief with DCS100 does have the seperate program track output. Other difference is 22 simultaneous locos with the DB150, 120 with the DCS100. Plus a few other extras, like a fast clock (not very accurate - if you're serious about that, either hook up a PC and let JMRI be the time source, or get the Logic Rail Technologies fast clock). Feature-wise the Zephyr is more capable than the DB150 but slightly less than the DCS100. IMO the only purpose for the Super Empire Builder set is if you are interested in purchasing an extra booster and a throttle, the set price is less than the DB150 and a DT402 purchased seperately.
The bottom line, John: There are pluses and minuses going with either system. You just have to determine which system is going to best meet YOUR needs. I think you're going about it the right way - even if you're feeling a bit woozy from the boat ride.
The two 'Jump Throttles' work - You have to use the Zephyr throttle to 'assign' your train to them - sort of a pain if you are using that throttle to run a train. Also, no function key control of lights/sounds - just basic throttle. they should not 'shorten' the life of the Zephyr - Remember, they are not feeding power to the DCC track - The command station is 'reading' their settings and sending out commands.
I have two matching ancient but fully functional MRC DC power packs today. How well does the Zephyr DC power pack external throttle solution work? I read that I can use up to two DC packs as separate throttles on the Zephyr.
Are there any problems with doing this, shorten life of Zephyr or locos etc?
Are there any advanced programming issues with the Zephyr? I'd hate to buy a decoder with advanced features and not be able to program it.
Our LHS has the Zephyr for $159
jrbernier If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
John, Here are comments based on all you have said:
1. If you want to ease into your system....start with a Zephyr/DT402 and expand from there as needed.
2. The 2-knob DT402 allows easy running of two trains simultaneously, and a third train could be run from the Zephyr.
3. The DT402 gives you a handheld from which you could do everything. And the Z gives you that extra throttle for your daughter.
4. 2.5 amps should be plenty for your N scale layout. A booster could be added if ever needed.
5. When it's time to upgrate the DT402 to radio (and I recommend duplex), you still have the Z's throttle ro run trains while the DT402 is sent in for upgrade.
6. You can run routes from your throttles if you use Digitrax DS64 turnout decoders.
7. You can use the program track without shutting down the main.
8. You will have 28 functions.
9. Digitrax has signalling options.
10. Digitrax offers great tech support and an amazingly helpful website.
Wow, what more could a guy want
Hmmm I don't know why but I had always thought that the Zephyr couldn't support two way comm but from your comments going with a DT402D and UR92 sure puts an end to that.
It appears that a DT402D plugged into the combination above will provide extended F13-28 sound addressing and stack recall. If so its sounds like the majority of my wish list is eventually covered except the separate programming track.
Oh sheesh, now I'm leaning back the other way torward the Zephyr again. I'm starting to feel sea sick, somebody stop this train I want off.
Is this some sort of competition for you gents.
I need to go review and see what I'm missing by going this route other than separate programming track and initially not having a stack or memory recall until a separate throttle is purchased.
Routes, macros are unavailable unless I go Chief. I think I'll have to come to terms with this, is there a way to add this feature into the above hardware compliment other than connecting a PC or buying a Chief? (EDIT: Never mind the DS64 suggestion has finally registered home.)
jcook01Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
5A will almost certainly be more than enough, my Z at half the amps can run that many locos.
For a 'home' layout - The Digitrax Zephyr and NCE Power Cab are very nice. Here are some thoughts:
Zephyr - The lack of 'remembering the last speed setting as you try to jump through a 'stack' from the built-in throttle may be a limitation. But I would normally be using a hand held throttle anyway. Running your trains from a single location is not the current direction of the hobby. And a large 'recall' stack really is not needed any way.
Power Cab - I love the NCE throttle - one of the best features of this setup. The lack of dedicated programming track could be an issue, but:
How often are you going to run trains while programming on the program track? I use my program track to either 'reset' a decoder to the factory defaults, or set the engine's number/address in the decoder. Everything else can be done by programming 'on the main'. Using the NCE 'Auto SW' will turn off power to the layout if 'blast' mode programming is done so you do not reprogram every engine on the layout - a nice feature. The 'Auto SW' will even work on a Digitrax Empire Builder.
The above said - What do I use? I have a Digitrax Super Chief with a 5 amp booster, radio throttles, etc...lots of 'over-kill' for a home layout. I also have a Digitrax Zephyr I picked up from a LHS that was going out of business. I am quite impressed with the Zephyr and would have bought one if it had been available in the late 90's when I bought the Chief series system. The Zephyr resides 'upstairs' with some Bachmann EZ Track and is used to program/test engines via Decoder Pro. I never use the built-in throttle - I just grab a DT400 series throttle from the layout and use it to run engines. Most of the programming is done on the computer with Decoder Pro.
If I had to start from scratch - I would buy a Zephyr, DT402D radio throttle, UR92 radio receiver & a PR3 to hook the whole thing up to a computer - Home layout is 'wired'!
.
Simon,
Thanks, the Chief has been floating around in my thoughts as well, now I'm attempting to quantify how much power I'll require. Blocks or zones aren't a large concern, on the three door size panel layout I'll have two mainlines circumnavigating most of all three tables, a switching yard and three or four main sidings with a half a dozen small customer siding sprinkled about.
Probably no more than four trains running at any given time comprised of about 8 engines total, consisted, and four sound decoders max. Also eventually I'd like to install some local signaling (light detector) and run a few switches on the mains and sidings.
Will 5amps suffice or should I go with 8amps?
Thanks, John
so if i get an extra cab throttle...will that only be assigned to one locomotive? how does extra throttles work?
The greatest difference between the SEB and the SC is the lack of a dedicated program track that can read and write CV's while the rest of the layout is operational. Based on your previous desires I would not give the SEB a 2nd look and just go for the SC.
rrinker Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated.
Yes it's overrated in some respects but this is where NCE and MRC are superior. One push of the recall button and the loco that comes up is ready to control with no further button presses. If you are running more than one train this is really slick for switching back and forth.
I really like the MRC recall, not because it has a 25 loco stack (which most would never want to use), but because any loco in the stack can be immediately removed with one push of the delete button.
But having more than just a few locos in the stack isn't very useful to me.
Also - a "recall stack' is highly overrated. How this works on most systems that have one is you hit the loco select button and then use either the throttle wheel or push the button to cycle through all the loco addesses currently in the recall stack. Then push the select or enter button to make your choice. So there are a minimum of 4 button presses to get to the second loco on the rcall stack. If there are 6 locos and you want #6 - 8 button presses. If you are using 4-digit addressing for all locos and they all have 4 digits in the address (ex. 1234, not 855), so select ANY loco you own, whether or not it was recently used, is 6 button presses. Always exactly the same. Some systems, liek the DT400/402 throttles from Digitrax, have a configurable size tot he recall stack, up to 16. For the 16th loco in the stack that's 18 button presses (equivalent - you can turn the knob to scroll throught he stack on a DT400) - is that REALLY faster than just keying in the address of the loco you want to operate? The disadvantage of the stack method grow when some locos have 2 and 3 digit address - for example all my switchers have 2 digit addresses following the actual prototyical cab number. My road units all have 3 digits int eh road number, not 4. So to select any loco on my layout, it's no more than 5 button presses.
Some of the Euro systems like the ESU Ecos http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ do provide more of a description based user interface, I beleive the Roco Locomouse system does as well. None of these systems are especially well entrenched in the US market, so support and local knowledge may be an issue.
Here are a couple of observations from my own experience. First of all my boys have no issues whatsoever selecting locos with any of the Digitrax throttles. They just key them in, and don't bother with the stack on the DT402's anyway
Second observation is that the previously discussed Zephyr and DT402 combination would get you going and can be built upon as your needs grow, with no real cost penalty. You can add wireless later, just plug it in and get the throttle upgraded. The cost to upgrade the DT throttle is very reasonable and does not cost anymore than if you purchased it with radio in the first place. Then if you add a Chief in the future, the Z can cease to be the command station, but will give you a 2.5A booster to run a power district. The Z throttle is great for a yard as well.
The one thing that I really like about the DT400 series throttles is the dual knob control. Having direct control over 2 locos at the same time without having to access a stack or switch is a very nice feature.
Decoder Pro software, does indeed allow for not only descriptions, but images of the locos as well. There is a throttle utility that you can get for the iPhone that allows a wireless throttle to run via the PC controlling the layout.
jcook01 One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on.
Digitrax is VERY good in that respect. They have designed their product so that nothing becomes obsolete after an upgrade. My understanding is that even the Zephyr can be used as a 2.5A booster. Very smart designing in my book. I think NCE has taken a page from Digitrax's philosophy in that regard in the redesign of their Smart Booster (SB3a).
Thanks but after reading some of the functions in the F-teens there are a couple there that I'd play with.
One item I failed to mention earlier is that ultimately money isn't an issue. I'm trying to get my foot in the door as inexpensive as possible with full featured expandability later. However I don't want to have to replace something to do it, just add on. I will spend a bit more now if necessary to prevent having to pull something out and shelve it later as our needs expand.
Maybe I should just jump to the wireless Chief out of the box and be done with it but I'd really prefer to incrementally buy up to that point if possible. The available entry level starter systems appear to be too limited to allow that so I guess I'm now looking at entry level mid-priced hardware.
Maxman,
Yes, I'm that lazy. I'd prefer to push the button and scroll through the list of locos and press enter. It would make easier on the kids as well. Question: Does any of the systems out there allow one to also add a description of the train stored into memory. I'm sure this probably exists in PC control software but was wondering if it's a feature on any of the hand held throttles as well.
Perhaps "store" was a poor choice of words. What I meant to say is that you can address a locomotive with a 4-digit number from 0-9999. The address storing is actually in the decoder.
Don't fall prey to the misconception that a system less than F0-F28 is inferior. For most MRRers, F0-F8 is more than adequate. Lights (F0), bell (F1), and horn/whistle (F2) are the most commonly used. The others are more gimmicky than anything.
Hmm, it appears that EasyDCC is limited to F0-12 on the audio features side and the throttles on the control panel appear to suffer from the same malaise as the Zephyr, potentiometer only with no recall stack memory for last throttle setting for each Loco currently under steam.
Ok, scratch that one.
I remember looking at a video on the MRR's website a few months back where they were discussing the installation of a new CVP EasyDCC system.
I read awhile on their site last night in trying to ascertain what features they have or are missing from my wish list. Is it me or do they not provide much information up front in their brochures.
I'll go digging through the forum here for past comments on the EasyDCC starter systems....I'll be back.
John, that is good that you are finding out the little nuances of each system, this way you can at least start with something that comes close to meeting your needs. However, the likelihood is that there will be some level of compromise, even if you jump up to one of the higher end starter sets.
I was about to comment that the speed mismatch issue has never really bothered me on my Zephyr, but realize that I hardly ever use the Z as my throttle, preferring to use the DT402 as my control of choice. I took my Z over to CudaKen's house for him to try when he was making a decision, and it was this speed change issue that put him off the unit completely. He ended up going for a Super Empire Builder set instead.
Bottom line is that NCE and Digitrax do make decent product, you just have to figure out which one comes closest to meeting your needs. I am not sure that I would discount MRC either and would certainly give Lenz a look. I for one would not purchase the MRC system, because I find great value in the Decoder Pro application and rather resent MRC's decision not to support it and offer their own proprietary solution instead.
Well that was enlightening.
Yes I was planning to use the Zephyr standalone for awhile and I thought that it did have a recall stack, yes I do want a recall stack,
Also it never occured to me that I'd have to readjust the throttle after selecting the new engine and then watch it speed up or slow down due to a mismatch in speed. Not good.
Well now I'm back to square one,
Thanks all, appreciate the feedback and the schooling.
Are you thinking of just starting with a Zephyr alone with no hand-held throttle? If so, this doesn't work very well in running several trains at the same time. There is no "recall stack" so you have to punch in each loco address when you want to select it. You can have several trains running at the same time but to switch back and forth you must punch in the address each time. This can be a bit awkward if you need to switch back and forth very quickly.
Also it has a potentiometer so when you select a moving loco you have to preset the speed dial to about where you think the loco is running or else you get a severe and abrupt speed change.
Starting off with a Zephyr and a DT402 series throttle is the ideal setup.
All functions, including F2, are only active for the currently selected loco and are not "programmed" for specific locos.
You are probably aware that you can only run one DC loco at a time on Digitrax.
tstageeach has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses
I'm not quite sure that this is correct. I believe that consist addresses are stored, but I don't think individual loco addresses are stored.
Just curious as to why you are thinking simplex radio instead of duplex. I think duplex only costs about $20 more total for both throttle and receiver.
jcook01 To clarify my situation further I can see two operators max on my layout. Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct? Maybe I'm wrong here, I've no real world experience working with DCC to date. To further clarify for arguments sake I'll have about 12 engines on the layout with four consisted or solo-engine trains running on average at any one time. The rest sitting in the shed, siding or the yard etc.
Yes, you will initially need an address each locomotive before putting it in a consist. However, a consist will have only one address and all the individual locomotives will programmed to and respond to that one address - i.e. until you break up or kill the consist. Then each locomotive returns to its 2- or 4-digit address that you initially gave it.
John, I'm not entirely sure but I suspect that some clarification may be in order here. A recall stack is a list of "recent" locomotive addresses in your throttle's cache that you can recall at a given moment while you are operating with your throttle.
The Power Cab has a 2 locomotive limit; the Zephyr, 10. Although the recall stack is different between the two, each has the ability to store up to 9,999 locomotive addresses.
Say you have your consist of four locomotives and another single locomotive. Your consist would have one address and your single locomotive would have another. Therefore, you would only need two addresses to run a total of 5 locomotives. The Power Cab would feasibly be able to handle both - i.e. enough power for operation and the ability to toggle back and forth between the two addresses.
Since I have a small layout (4 x 8), the limited recall stack of the Power Cab is not a big deal to me. Running more than two locomotives simultaneously would be both flirting with trouble and taxing the capacity of my brain. LOL!
OK, I've been doing some more digging based upon the feedback so far, excellent feedback by the way, thanks all. I'm glad I signed up for the MRR magazine even if it does appear to lean more heavily into HO rather my gauge of choice N (its a space thing). This forum is worth the subscription price.
I've concluded that an initial zephyr purchase would get us most of the way there and that the addition of a UR91 and DT402R would bring into play the wireless radio capability down the road.
I noticed that the Zephyr has a "Function 2" key that is momentary as long as its depressed for sound functions. Are there more than one Function 2 keys? Will the addition of the DT402R provide access to more Function 2 style keys? I'm assuming here that the Function 2 key is independently programmed for whichever Loco is currently being addressed by the Zephyr but I'd like to have the option to more than one dedicated function per Loco if possible, not mandatory.
I also like the address 00 DC feature, all of my existing LOCOs are currently DCC ready except for an older Super Chief Bachman that I would like to run on occasion (if it'll run on code 55 rails...ouch). The DC feature now that I think about would let me migrate as I can afford it into DCC decoders (I'd forgotten about that).
Thanks again all, I think this may be the direction we'll go and the little extra power of 2.5 amps may be all we'll ever need.
maxman jcook01: some day I'd like to easily go wireless. Okay for all except not too practicle for Power Cab unless you upgrade to the SB3a Smart Booster. I'm not sure what you mean by practical, nor do I think you need a Smart Booster. Our club has a little module they take from place to place for demonstration purposes and they have hooked up the NCE radio base station to the PowerCab and were able to run with a radio throttle. And they don't have a Smart Booster to the best of my knowledge.
some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
Okay for all except not too practicle for Power Cab unless you upgrade to the SB3a Smart Booster.
I'm not sure what you mean by practical, nor do I think you need a Smart Booster. Our club has a little module they take from place to place for demonstration purposes and they have hooked up the NCE radio base station to the PowerCab and were able to run with a radio throttle. And they don't have a Smart Booster to the best of my knowledge.
jcook01: some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
jcook01Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct?
No. Each engine will have an address called the long address that is stored in the memory of the decoder in the engine. When you consist the engines, that is put a number of them together pulling the same train, you need only enter the number of the lead engine. When you tell the lead engine to move, all the consisted engines will move as one. So, if you are using the NCE system you would only have that first engine in the recall stack.
jcook01 when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
jcook01I want to be able to drive up to 4-6 trains, some consisted, from a memory location in 128 speed mode.
jcook01 I want hand held sound control and switch control at all times if possible.
jcook01I want PC interface control via JMR or similar
jcook01and I don't want my layout coming to a halt when using the programming feature.
jcook01I also want macro'd switch control.
jcook01some day I'd like to easily go wireless.
jcook01Two way control may or may not be a requirement I guess that depends upon the reliability of throwing switches and how well the perform to the command being sent.
jcook01I do not plan to use two way signalling (local automated signaling only)
jcook01and will uncouple cars manually. My switching yard I think I will switch manually so macro-switching will be for main lines and main siding only.
jcook01With all that being said I think the PowerCab may be too limiting.
From everything you have said, it sounds like a Zephyr plus a D402 throttle would fit your requirements and might be a good way to start. You could also add a UT4 throttle for your daughter. This system would be upgradeable and expandalble in many ways, and, with no wasted equipment.
I hope others will correct any of my comments if incomplete or in error.
I will just add a plug for radio. I know some feel it is a luxury, and it is, but once you use it you never want to go back to tethered again. It's just such a pleasure to run wireless. I'm even using radio on my small N scale layout.
To clarify my situation further I can see two operators max on my layout. Not huge by any means but many of the trains will have multiple engines (consisted). So in my mind (correct me if I'm wrong) we'll still need an address for every engine even if consisted. So I'f we're running four trains but actually have seven engines running I need to plan ahead for the capacity of seven addresses in memory during that session, correct? Maybe I'm wrong here, I've no real world experience working with DCC to date. To further clarify for arguments sake I'll have about 12 engines on the layout with four consisted or solo-engine trains running on average at any one time. The rest sitting in the shed, siding or the yard etc.
Yes, I would like to allow my daughter to operate while I'm tinkering on the programming track, not shutting down the layout will probably be one of the top items in my list.
Initially we'll operate switching from the handset only but eventually I'd like to integrate a PC into the system.
Also I just now noticed that wireless in DigiTrax is actually Infrared, which to me means line of site only or at most bouncing it off the walls etc. Is there an RF option out there somewhere?
Thank you again for the comments.
jwils1 Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr. Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts. In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc). And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all. There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution. You are correct but I thought John was talking about throwing turnouts from a throttle so that is what I was addressing.
Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr. Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts. In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc). And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all. There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution.
jwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.
Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts.
In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc).
And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all.
There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution.
As I mentioned in my original post, DS64 routes can be triggered by switch commands generated by a throttle, but you don't need a Chief to do it.
The DS64's can get their switch commands from the TRKA and TRKB inputs, so any DCC system/throttle capable of sending switch commands can trigger them.
Or if you wanted to, you could plug a DT* throttle into that stand-alone LocoNet and use it to send switch commands to trigger DS64 routes. How do I know that works? Well, I'm in the process of setting up a yard/staging area with 15 turnouts controlled by four DS64's, which will have roughly 8 or 10 routes when it's done. I'm using a PR3 in LocoNet Master mode with a computer and LocoNet Checker to program the DS64's, and a DT400 to check operation of the individual turnouts and the routes as I go along. No command station is involved at all.
So again, you do NOT need a Chief to trigger DS64 routes.
jwils1 tstageIf you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster.Tom, Did you mean to say Power Pro instead of Power Cab in that sentence?
tstageIf you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster.
Doh! Yes, that's what I meant, Jerry. And I've corrected the error on my earlier post. Thanks, Jerry.
maxmanNo one as yet has asked R.Y.A.N. how big his proposed railroad will be, nor what expansion plans he might have in the future. He did ask about a particular starter set. I believe that he has, or will have, a small railroad. If that is the case I think we have, indeed, wandered away from the original question.
maxmanSecond, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion. If I assume 4 recalls per handset, that's 16 engines, or 16 consists. Exactly how many different locos/trains can be run at one time on that 4 X 8? Or are people just lazy and don't want to punch in a different loco number when they can just scroll through all the stacked numbers until they stumble on the one they want?
maxmanFirst, on the concern over the number of cabs that the Procab can handle, how many cabs are actually necessary on a small railroad? Is not four enough?
For me no, especially when you consider that the PC interface and the mini panel take 2 of these available cab slots. I frequently have 4 cabs and sometimes more on my Zephyr controlled layout along with the PC interface.
maxmanSecond, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion.
maxmanFinally, the issue of shutting down the railroad while programming has been brought up. Yes, this is what happens with any of the NCE systems. But so what?
But this is the whole point, different people have different needs and ways of using there systems. Thankfully it is not a one-size-fits-all situation.
jwils1Stevertjwils1If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr. Not true if you use DS64's to control your turnouts. In each DS64 you can define up to 8 routes with up to 8 addresses each, and routes can be nested (Digitrax calls it "cascading") for even more addresses per route. They can be activated by a switch-aware throttle, physical push buttons, or computer via an appropriate LocoNet to PC interface (LocoBuffer, PR3, etc). And you can set up a stand-alone LocoNet for your DS64's, which means you don't need any particular command station (or even DCC) at all. There were a lot of stand-alone LocoNet posts on both the NCE and Digitrax groups a month or two ago. Apparently, some NCE users feel it's a better alternative than the Switch 8/Mini-panel solution. You are correct but I thought John was talking about throwing turnouts from a throttle so that is what I was addressing.
No one as yet has asked R.Y.A.N. how big his proposed railroad will be, nor what expansion plans he might have in the future. He did ask about a particular starter set. I believe that he has, or will have, a small railroad. If that is the case I think we have, indeed, wandered away from the original question.
After reading some of the concerns in the posts above, I'd like to render my opinion and ask some questions of the other posters.
First, on the concern over the number of cabs that the Procab can handle, how many cabs are actually necessary on a small railroad? Is not four enough? How many operators are actually required on a 4 X 8, or a 8 X 16? If 4 is not enough, then we should not be talking about a good beginning DCC system anyway.
Second, on the number of recalls available in the stack, and I forget if number available in the expanded Procab system is 4 or 6 per cab, it is my opinion that this is blown out of proportion. If I assume 4 recalls per handset, that's 16 engines, or 16 consists. Exactly how many different locos/trains can be run at one time on that 4 X 8? Or are people just lazy and don't want to punch in a different loco number when they can just scroll through all the stacked numbers until they stumble on the one they want?
Finally, the issue of shutting down the railroad while programming has been brought up. Yes, this is what happens with any of the NCE systems. But so what? Most programming of decoders can be done on the main, including changing the loco address from the initial default short address of 3 to whatever long address is desired. And if it is necessary to get into some serious programming on a programming track because someone has royally messed with a decoder, I would think that that work would be done in a situation where my concentration was not being diverted by trying to keep my Broadway Limited from crashing into my ballast train.
Just my opinions, of course.
jcook01 I guess I keep lingering on hoping to see that one definitive answer that brings closure to all of my concerns, but unfortunately as I continue to read I find out just how ignorant I really am, case in point a couple of posts back, when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
I'm the one who made this comment. You don't lose sound when in Digitrax Switch Mode you just can't initiate a sound, like blowing the horn or turning on the bell.
For most, this is not a concern. You press the button for Switch Mode only when you want to throw a turnout from your throttle, or maybe a series of turnouts as your loco weaves its way throw a section of track. You may or may not want to use the horn or bell at this time. As soon as you finish throwing the turnout you exit Switch Mode.
If you are going to use macros, or as Digitrax calls them routes, you would need to have the Digitrax Super Chief and not the Zephyr.
jcook01Question, if I understand correctly, the PowerCab can only recall two trains from memory at once, only 4 ea cabs (handheld controllers) connected at once for a total of 8 trains in memory but with limited power under two amps. Do I have this straight?
Yes, you are correct, John. The new Smart Booster (SB3a) will remedy both the power and recall issues, however. It increases total output of the Power Cab from 1.7A to 5A and recall from 2 to 6 locomotives. I believe the throttle address is still limited to 4 total though. Moving up to the Powerhouse (PH) Pro will give you many more throttle addresses.
With the SB3a, you can also unplug and plug your Power Cab around your layout (via the UTP panels) without shutting the layout down. (Essentially, it "overrides" the command station of the Power Cab and turns the Power Cab into a Pro Cab.) This will also enable you to use the Power Cab over on your bench (or wherever) to program locomotives with, rather than having your programming track restricted to your layout.
If you should move up from the SB3a to the Power Cab Pro, your SB3a can be used as a separate 5A booster. If you are wanting to program with the Power Cab, you'll need the USB interface board to do that. (~$50-$60) The PH Pro has an RS-232 port already on the back of the command station.
John, whatever DCC system you ultimately end up choosing, I would encourage you to try as many systems out firsthand before you purchase one. This will allow you to see how intuitive the interfaces (throttles) are to you; both from an appearance point of view, as well as an interaction point of view.
Hope that helps...
I'm in the same position as the O.P. in this thread, trying to juggle all the choices of a first DCC system. I've been watching this particular thread, it does answer the mail and it does branch out a bit, both answers are very substantive and not off topic in my opinion. Thank you all for the comments to date.
I guess I keep lingering on hoping to see that one definitive answer that brings closure to all of my concerns, but unfortunately as I continue to read I find out just how ignorant I really am, case in point a couple of posts back, when in switching mode you no longer have sound control.
It's the little things that keep me from pulling the trigger and I haven't seen enough of your responses to identify all the hidden pitfalls. Sheesh I wish this was easier.
I want to be able to drive up to 4-6 trains, some consisted, from a memory location in 128 speed mode. I want hand held sound control and switch control at all times if possible. I want PC interface control via JMR or similar and I don't want my layout coming to a halt when using the programming feature. I also want macro'd switch control. The overall layout will be about 3 ea 4x8s in N scale and some day I'd like to easily go wireless. Two way control may or may not be a requirement I guess that depends upon the reliability of throwing switches and how well the perform to the command being sent. I do not plan to use two way signalling (local automated signaling only) and will uncouple cars manually. My switching yard I think I will switch manually so macro-switching will be for main lines and main siding only.
With all that being said I think the PowerCab may be too limiting.
Question, if I understand correctly, the PowerCab can only recall two trains from memory at once, only 4 ea cabs (handheld controllers) connected at once for a total of 8 trains in memory but with limited power under two amps. Do I have this straight?
Regards and thanks for all the responses.
Not my intention to hijack the this thread, I think we both share a lot of the same questions and concerns
simon1966jwils1We haven't heard form r.y.a.n for awhile now and what I wonder is....has this info been helpful, or have we overwhelmed him with too much info He will be back, I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread he has started asking about DCC systems and which to choose, so he is probably getting close to making a decision about which way to go by now.
jwils1We haven't heard form r.y.a.n for awhile now and what I wonder is....has this info been helpful, or have we overwhelmed him with too much info
He will be back, I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread he has started asking about DCC systems and which to choose, so he is probably getting close to making a decision about which way to go by now.
I see he hasn't visited since the 19th. But as noted he'll more than likely be back. maybe he keeps posting because when he visits again he forgets he already asked or can't find his original thread
On ANY online forum you rarely see people posting just to say "hey check it out, my system works great"
No, people post when they have a problem or question they can't figure out. You can't use a forum like that to judge quality of anything.
Are all the units being sent in for repair, or are some of them being upgraded? I agree with Simon on his synposis about DCC manufacturers.
If NCE were a fly-by-night company I would be concerned, but they have an excellent reputation. Read the Digitrax yahoo group and you will see things being sent back to Digitrax as well. None of the companies can ship 100% perfect stuff, but if you know that they will stand behind their product then you should feel confident in purchasing. Personally, I would have no qualms about buying from NCE, Digitrax, Lenz or CVP if I were in the market for a DCC system.
Another timely topic and discussion as I review and contemplate my own decisions on DCC systems. The only concern I have is the number of messages I read on the NCE Yahoo group regarding having to have systems repaired. Is this a common occurence? Although I understand the service is very good from NCE.
Thanks,
Hamltnblue By now I believe the thread has gotten off topic.
We haven't heard form r.y.a.n for awhile now and what I wonder is....has this info been helpful, or have we overwhelmed him with too much info?
By now I believe the thread has gotten off topic. The basic answer is Yes the powercab is a not only a good starter system but a great one that is expandable. It's a quality product that rivals the best of any other manufacturer and won't let you down. I can vouch for the product since I have one and have gone through the upgrade path with one. I suggest you try one out at your LHS if you have the opportunity. I think you'll be more than happy with it.
Good Luck with your choice.
Well I hope some of these posts are helpful to the O.P. and others in selecting a system. There are so many possibilities that affect our choices and some of you have brought up some good points.
I thought of a few more points to mention:
1. I'm now in N scale modeling modern equipment with lots of consisting and NCE has nice advance consisting features, including the "double ended" consist. I've never had any problem with Digitrax consisting but NCE's system is slicker and a bit faster, and the double ended capability works so nice if you are running trains like "turns".
2. I like the NCE Cab05 or Cab05r. Like the 04e you can run two trains at the same time and switch back and forth via the toggle at the top of the throttle. The 05's have push-button speed control and are nice for one-handed operation. The 04's and 05's also have macro capabilty and programable keys.
3. I find it very convenient to throw 4 of my 13 turnouts from the throttle and the NCE macros work nice for this.
4. If you do lots of turnouts from the throttle I think Digitrax (DT402 series and the Zephyr) are better, with less button pressing, although you can't operate sound when in Switch Mode.
Thanks Randy, now I know which of the NCE Cabs that don't work with my system I should get
Actually it is not the pot that bugs me, I just don't like those switches to select the loco number.
You'd want that to be the Cab04E, as the Cab04P has a potentiometer and all the same shortcomings of the UT4.
Jerry, nice illustration and I could not agree more. The DT40X throttles are nice and small and fit the hand well. The downside is that the buttons are small and for some not easy to see. However, I personally really like the DT400's and it is my preferred throttle. I also happen to hate the UT4 series engineers throttles. Yes the knob is nice and big and direction control is easy to use, but the switches and buttons are a real pain. The NCE engineers throttle is much, much nicer. Again, all personal opinion, so pick what works best for you. But I for one would be really happy if the NCE Cab04 or what ever it is called would work with my Digitrax system.
jwils1What are the short comings that were not addressed?
The Cab limit is IMO the greatest shortcoming of the Power Cab, with or without the Smartbooster. I think it is also a shame that the booster is not additive to the power output of the system. It would have been nice to be able to use the Power Cab 1.7A booster for one power district and the 5A of the booster for another, making it additional power. Instead you lose the original power output. The final shortcoming is an NCE issue in general, and that is the inability to keep the layout running while using the program track.
Don't get me wrong here, these are purely personal opinions and are more than likely not issues to many users at all. I like the PowerCab concept and NCE very much, but realize that I am unable to use this particular system in the way that I have become accustomed with my Zephyr.
Some comments have been made about numeric keypad arrangement, button spacing, etc. The photo below shows a comparison of the NCE primary throttle with the popular Digitrax primary thottle. You can see that they are quite different, as are the MRC, Lenz and CVP throttles. Herein lies one very big question in selecting a system. Which throttle arrangement and feature-set suits you best?
I personally have found the Digitrax DT402 series to be the most comfortable and efficient for my use. But I am now an NCE user and it too has become very enjoyable to use. So, what a tough decision for many. A pre-puchase trial would be great but many can't do that. So one just needs to research the best they can and we need to try to address points of interest that will best help them make a decision.
Many of us end up running our trains with one of the auxilliary or "engineers" throttles and that brings up another question and one that should be researched. Which one of these best suits you. In this case I find the NCE 04 and 05 throttles to be superior to the Digitrax UT4. But that's me and you may totally disagree. Check them out and make the best decision you can.
simon1966 Hamltnblue It's a well thought out system with a designed in upgrade path. It is now, but I think even NCE would admit that the original Power Cab booster was a poorly conceived product that provided an awful upgrade path. The new Smartbooster being released to address most of the shortcomings of the first one.
Hamltnblue It's a well thought out system with a designed in upgrade path.
jwhittenOn the NCE Powerhouse Pro system you can have up to 6 slots in the loco recall area...I *presume* its there on the PowerCab 2A version also-- particularly since I'm using that version of the NCE Manual--
On the NCE Powerhouse Pro system you can have up to 6 slots in the loco recall area...I *presume* its there on the PowerCab 2A version also-- particularly since I'm using that version of the NCE Manual--
Hamltnblue Another nice thing about the power cab is that if you upgrade to the pro version, the cab can be used as an extra throttle with full functionality. The cab can quickly become a backup in case of any problems, or be used to run a separate programming track. It's a well thought out system with a designed in upgrade path.
Another nice thing about the power cab is that if you upgrade to the pro version, the cab can be used as an extra throttle with full functionality. The cab can quickly become a backup in case of any problems, or be used to run a separate programming track. It's a well thought out system with a designed in upgrade path.
Yes, I have the Powerhouse Pro version and I have been strongly considering getting a PowerCab 2A version to use for offline programming. The Powerhouse Pro does fine for all that, but it shuts down everything (on the main) whenever you use the programming track (not programming on the main), which is a pain if you just want to do some side-work while you're running trains. At $150 (+/-) having a secondary PowerCab 2A systems just seems like a sensible solution.
Tom JonesThe NCE is a fine product from a great company.
Definitely agreed. And they stand behind it too-- I've had mine for over 10 years and have recently upgraded it to the very latest firmware for the cost of the chip and postage.
Tom JonesNow for the cons: 1). Power cab cannot remember the macros when shut down or short circuited. This is a real buzz killer. TO NCE - how could you do this to me. Why have it if I have to reprogram them each time I use it? This fact makes the macro button a non-feature as far as I am concerned.
Now for the cons:
1). Power cab cannot remember the macros when shut down or short circuited. This is a real buzz killer. TO NCE - how could you do this to me. Why have it if I have to reprogram them each time I use it? This fact makes the macro button a non-feature as far as I am concerned.
Hmm-- wasn't aware of that one. Will have to check it out.
Tom Jones2). My Power cab came with a defective thumbwheel. It is physically screwed up - binds up in one spot. Oh, and it does not function correctly either.
My first throttle has a similar problem. It isn't broken but it does bind in one spot, but I can press a little harder and push past it. My other throttles, which are newer, have no issues though. So it may say something about the vintage. When did you get yours?
Tom Jones3). The number pad is odd. You will find yourself entering wrong numbers sometimes. Why? Because our brains are predisposed to entering phone numbers, calculator values, ect.., on a 3x3 number pad with a 0 at the bottom. Power cab's pad is different. You will have to look at it to enter numbers whereas if it were like a phone pad, you could enter correct numbers without hardly looking. Nit picking here, but maybe the CEO or somebody from NCE will read this and actually think about it.
IMO, *this* is the issue. I hate the keypad and I'm always entering wrong digits. I also don't like the way all of the buttons are crammed in together. It makes it really easy to hit a wrong button-- and almost always at the worst possible moment.
I myself would like it if there was a "lockout" feature that would disable the advanced functions (building consists, programming, etc) so that you couldn't accidentally activate them by mistake. Or maybe add a 'thumb' button on the side ('push-to-talk' style) that would only allow these functions while that button was also being pressed.
Nit-picking perhaps, but have you seen the size of those nits!?!?
Tom Jones4). To throw a switch, it requires four button presses. A real bummer, especially since the macros are not remembered.
Yeah, I have to agree with that one too.
Tom JonesBottom line - prefer the NCE for a starter sys.
You might be right, although the NCE is a *very* nice system overall-- the aforementioned notwithstanding.
If I had it to do all over again-- which I'm not going to do anytime soon-- I might try out one of the more advanced Digitrax systems and see how I liked that. I've never used one, but in researching systems, they seem to be decent systems too. I'd like to try one to see how its different (better / worse / etc). But for the price of these things, its like getting married: "for better or for worse!". I've got over $1000 bucks tied up into my NCE Powerhouse Pro with wireless receiver and the several wireless throttles and such. Switching just ain't really an option. And since you generally only get to read about them before mail-ordering-- at least that's all I could do when I bought mine-- you pays your money and takes your chances.
tstageSome complain about the size of the throttle. It's never been an issue for me...but I have big hands. Other limitations are the 2-locomotive recall stack limit.
On the NCE Powerhouse Pro system you can have up to 6 slots in the loco recall area. I know its a configurable parameter though and it probably does come with only 2 slots set up. All that is needed to change it to 6 is to go into the 'Cab' programming section (programming button, press enter a few times until the 'Cab' setup option appears, and then roll through until you get to the loco recall parameter). I got a new PowerCab-style (wireless) throttle recently and had to set it up for that one-- so I know its there on the new ones.
I *presume* its there on the PowerCab 2A version also-- particularly since I'm using that version of the NCE Manual-- I lost or misplaced my original PowerHouse Pro manual years ago.
If you've never done it, there's actually a number of useful things you can configure, both for your throttle and for other stuff. Check your manual for complete details.
Harley-Davidson The PowerCab is an excellent DCC system, for starters...and more...My only complaint is that starts in 28 speed steps, and each time you may change to 128 steps. It take just 3 seconds, by I prefer that by default, it´ll starts in 128.
The PowerCab is an excellent DCC system, for starters...and more...My only complaint is that starts in 28 speed steps, and each time you may change to 128 steps. It take just 3 seconds, by I prefer that by default, it´ll starts in 128.
With the Power Cab/SB3a the Macros work just fine. No memory loss on shut down. But, it should be noted that this system only allows 15 macros. If you need more then you might need the Power Pro with 256 Macros.
I run solo so 4 cabs is plenty for me. I only use the computer interface for programming and roster storage and don't use a Mini-panel so I could add 3 more operators should I ever want to.
So far I've experienced no defects with any of my NCE equipment and the radio is flawless. And, their tech support for my new user questions has been excellent.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 If your engine roster starts to grown and you find you want to run more trains at the same time simply upgrade to a larger power supply.
Adding a larger power supply to a DCC system does not increase the power output and may actually damage the system. The only way to increase the power output of a Power Cab is to purchase a booster. Once you have the booster and its associated power supply, again replacing the power supply with a larger one will not increase the output of the booster.
Adding a booster is probably what you meant, but since adding a larger power supply can be harmful I thought it worth pointing out.
Allegheny2-6-6-6...for the average to mid sized model railroad virtually no limitations. I am not referring to these big 2000 plus square foot basement empires who run over 100 locomotives then you'll need to bump up to the power house pro...
Absolutely hands down yes in my o/p the best bang for your buck. What was appealing to me was that you have plenty of room to build with the NCE and for the average to mid sized model railroad virtually no limitations. I am not referring to these big 2000 plus square foot basement empires who run over 100 locomotives then you'll need to bump up to the power house pro. If your engine roster starts to grown and you find you want to run more trains at the same time simply upgrade to a larger power supply.
For me I couldn't ask for anything more but maybe some day down the road a wireless throttle.
I had trouble with the original SB3. Two of them burned up after a short circuit. I gave up and switched to the power pro. The SB3A probably fixed whatever was going on with the short detection.
Tom Jones...the SB3(the original 3amp version, ~60 dollars) will expand the woefully inadequate recall stack from two to four.
Another correction: The original Smart Booster (SB3) only had a recall stack of 2 - just like the Power Cab. What it did increase was the number of additional cabs you could use in conjunction with your Power Cab - i.e. from 1 to 3. The newly updated SB3a is the only version of the Smart Booster that increases the recall stack of the Power Cab - i.e. from 2 to 6.
Tom Jones It is important to note that while any booster may work, it is important for the Power Cab users to purchase the NCE booster. Why? Simple, the SB3(the original 3amp version, ~60 dollars) will expand the woefully inadequate recall stack from two to four. Also, allows four cabs to be used at once. Additionally, the newer SB3a(now full 5amps!!!) will expand the stack to six, and allows for eight cabs(I think). MLB
It is important to note that while any booster may work, it is important for the Power Cab users to purchase the NCE booster. Why? Simple, the SB3(the original 3amp version, ~60 dollars) will expand the woefully inadequate recall stack from two to four. Also, allows four cabs to be used at once. Additionally, the newer SB3a(now full 5amps!!!) will expand the stack to six, and allows for eight cabs(I think).
MLB
A small correction here, the SB3a will allows for 4 cabs not 8.
Jack W.
On Bachmann EZ whatever it is - any other late model DCC system will outclass it.
Firstly, I own a power cab and have recently(this month) researched or experienced the pros and cons of the unit itself and its optional components.
My understanding at this point is that the power cab does not need a programming booster to program QSI sounders on the programming track???
The NCE is a fine product from a great company.
Optional components - NCE has a switch eight for turnout control(tortouis), a killer minipanel for even more accessory/train control, short circuit protection devices, and a USB interface for using JMRI. All reasonably priced and available.
2). My Power cab came with a defective thumbwheel. It is physically screwed up - binds up in one spot. Oh, and it does not function correctly either.
3). The number pad is odd. You will find yourself entering wrong numbers sometimes. Why? Because our brains are predisposed to entering phone numbers, calculator values, ect.., on a 3x3 number pad with a 0 at the bottom. Power cab's pad is different. You will have to look at it to enter numbers whereas if it were like a phone pad, you could enter correct numbers without hardly looking. Nit picking here, but maybe the CEO or somebody from NCE will read this and actually think about it.
4). To throw a switch, it requires four button presses. A real bummer, especially since the macros are not remembered.
Bottom line - prefer the NCE for a starter sys.
barrokAnother great thing about this set is that you can add a booster to up the overall amps. Chuck
Actually, a booster can be added to just about any DCC system. Many times it doesn't have to be made by the same manufacturer. There are even some DIY boosters.
Martin Myers
Modeling the Motor City
I started out with the power cab and then went to the pro. The nice thing is that the power cab can be used with the procab as an additional throttle. It can also be used on the side to program loco's. Also if I ever have a problem with the pro I can always swap out for the power cab while it's being repaired. Another neat feature is the yard function. When in that mode you can use the rotary throttle to go both forward and reverse without using the direction button. You'll love it.
Totally different league than the bachmann you were looking at.
thank you
r.y.a.n what do you mean by 2-locomotive recall stack limit?
what do you mean by 2-locomotive recall stack limit?
This means that the handset can remember two individually selected locomotives, and you can toggle between them by using the "recall" button on the handset. If you select an additional locomotive, its address will overwrite one of the already selected locomotive addresses.
However, if you happen to use your handset on someone else's railroad where they have the larger capacity PowerPro system, the recall capability of your PowerCab handset will be the same as one of the PowerPro handsets (6, I believe).
For whatever it might be worth, I belong to a club that uses the ProCab system and has about 20 members. We ended up purchasing a PowerCab so that we could do programming without affecting mainline operations. Somewhere between 6 and 8 of the members have also purchased PowerCab systems for their home use, and I have not heard any complaints. A couple others of us use the PowerPro system, some like myself because the PowerCab was not available when we made the leap to DCC.
I agree with Pete, my Powercab has been all I need. It reads and write CVs and powers as many trains as I can put on my layout. The layout is now 5' x 27', I have one additional throttle and ten locos all sound. I don't keep everything on the track at once but you could have a storage track and cut the power to that if you wanted to. I even use a laptop and Decoder Pro with it. I get all the fun for a small price.
Good Luck
r.y.a.nWould this be a good starter set for dcc? i researched the bachman ez command and other cheap starter sets. They seemed to have limited options....not as many functions or programs. When i came across this set, i said wow. I researched NCE and seems to be a good company. I would like feedback from someone who has used this product or knows about it. Thank you
I personally use the 5 amp Pro Cab from NCE, but the 2 amp Power Cab is an excellent starter system. Go on the NCE-DCC forum on Yahoo and check out the comments about the Power Cab.
The recall stack is being able to toggle quickly between locomotives or trains. Toggling is faster than selecting and addressing loco numbers. FWIW My Power cab is over four years old and has run 5 sound and 6 non sound HO locos at the same time. For a small fleet it is plenty of power. The real plus is the programing ability. Mine reads and programs every decoder put on the rails so far.
ryan,
The Power Cab is a very good starter system. I've had one for over 4 years now and have been very happy with it. FYI: It's actually a 1.7A system but I believe can operate at 2A peak.
Some complain about the size of the throttle. It's never been an issue for me...but I have big hands. Other limitations are the 2-locomotive recall stack limit.
If you have the opportunity to try a Power Cab out, ryan, I would strongly encourage you to do that. That way you can actually see how well it fits in your hand and if the button layout is intuitive for you or not.