Be fair though Tom - there is only ONE button on the DT400 that is multiple function - the Power/Flashlight button. That's why there ARE so many buttons. It's only the older DT300/200/100 that had all the shift combinations. Now with 28 functions, NO ONE will have a throttle with every button doing exactly one thing - you'd of course need 29 buttons just for the functions! That would be one HUGE throttle. 29 F butons, throttle knob, reverse buttons, up/down speed buttons for those who prefer not to turn a knob, plus various DCC functionality like loco selection, consist creation, and programming. Yikes.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Actually NCE's menu structure is closer to plain english and I consider it a late 90's type configuration when it comes to interface. The digitrax throttles I consider mid 80's when it was necessary due to limited memory and slow processors. I wouldn't suggest either one for a new throttle. It's time to bring things up to date with current technology. memory and displays are cheap. There is no reason why they shouldn't be to the point of checking the model of a decoder, and displaying CV's as plain text as to their function with plain text help and selections. You would just plug your base into a pc and update the latest info from the web. A standard over the counter USB stick that costs 10 bucks can hold the data of every decoder ever made and still be only a quarter full.
Of course they can make them backwards compatible for those who want abreviations of actual commands and want to keep programming individual cv values while referencing decoder manuals. It's similar to how Microsoft kept dos in the background of windows for years to keep the dos lovers happy.
Springfield PA
I am a satisfied Digitrax radio owner for ten years. I don't care for the DT400R. I use Decoder Pro for programing and gave up punching in CVs a long time ago. I like my DT100R and DT300R throttles, maybe because I am more comfortable with them. As I stated earlier I don't need all of the function buttons.
I will get the UR-92 and some of the DT4D throttles when they come out. The nice thing about Digitrax is my old DR100R contines to work just fine. I know several MRRs who have been through several DDC sets trying to get all of the new features. I just continue to upgrade my initial investment.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
I prefer this:
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Graffen I prefer this:
Why?
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
rrinker Be fair though Tom - there is only ONE button on the DT400 that is multiple function - the Power/Flashlight button. That's why there ARE so many buttons. It's only the older DT300/200/100 that had all the shift combinations. Now with 28 functions, NO ONE will have a throttle with every button doing exactly one thing - you'd of course need 29 buttons just for the functions! That would be one HUGE throttle. 29 F butons, throttle knob, reverse buttons, up/down speed buttons for those who prefer not to turn a knob, plus various DCC functionality like loco selection, consist creation, and programming. Yikes. --Randy
Thanks for that explanation, Randy. I had the UT4 throttle in mind when I made my earlier statement. With that being the case, then the Power Cab/ProCab throttle would have more dual-purpose buttons than the DT400. Thankfully, they're located on the bottom row and don't get used all that much. (F10-F12)
I do think that minimizing the amount of dual-purpose buttons on the newer throttles makes for a better, cleaner, and less confusing design for the user. But, that's going to be more of a challenge as decoders gain more and more sophistication. I wonder how DCC throttles will change over the next decade because of this.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Based on my own observation, I think that Graffen has a point. Some of the European DCC manufacturers have really done a nice job with graphical user interfaces that appear at first glance to be simple to use.
However, another observation that I would make is that the main US manufacturers seem to have focused on the needs of a modeller that wants walk around capability with single handed control. Compare an ESU system to an NCE and you can see the difference.
Like many, I would agree that the learning curve on a Digitrax throttle is slightly longer than others. But once mastered is much quicker to operate. Its like using keyboard short cuts in a PC application rather than scrolling through the menu system. However for me, the hands down biggest advantage of the DT400 series is that it is a genuine dual throttle. The twin knobs and controls allowing full control of 2 locos simultaneously is something I would never want to give up.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
tstage Well, then - A beearly (vs. belated) "Happy Father's Day, Simon!" And you realize when you get your DT402D and UR92 that you will be required to write and submit a review on it. That's part of the privilege and responsibility for being first. Tom
Well, then - A beearly (vs. belated) "Happy Father's Day, Simon!" And you realize when you get your DT402D and UR92 that you will be required to write and submit a review on it. That's part of the privilege and responsibility for being first.
I read somewhere that these things are shipping on the 22nd to the dealers, so hopefully Bruce got his orders in and that I might see mine sometime in early July. I will certainly write up my experience on this, as I image others will as well.
simon1966 Based on my own observation, I think that Graffen has a point. Some of the European DCC manufacturers have really done a nice job with graphical user interfaces that appear at first glance to be simple to use. However, another observation that I would make is that the main US manufacturers seem to have focused on the needs of a modeller that wants walk around capability with single handed control. Compare an ESU system to an NCE and you can see the difference. Like many, I would agree that the learning curve on a Digitrax throttle is slightly longer than others. But once mastered is much quicker to operate. Its like using keyboard short cuts in a PC application rather than scrolling through the menu system. However for me, the hands down biggest advantage of the DT400 series is that it is a genuine dual throttle. The twin knobs and controls allowing full control of 2 locos simultaneously is something I would never want to give up.
Sorry for hijackin the thread, but I wondered why they don´t release a "new" throttle instead with a nicer interface?
The reason I showed the Roco Multimaus is that I was looking at the Digitrax and other US systems when I was shopping for a new system. The reason i got the Roco was that it has all the functions I need and then some! It took me 2 hours to learn it and that is my kind of interface . The Digitrax seemed to have a steep learning.curve, and actually, after trying one I opted them out. And if I would have wanted a walkaround system I would have bought this instead:
Wireless with computerinterface and software.
Graffen I wondered why they don´t release a "new" throttle instead with a nicer interface?
I think that the answer to this is that the DT400 series throttle is incredibly popular and very much liked by those that use it. Of course it is not the perfect throttle for everyone, but has a very loyal following. I would venture to guess that this throttle is probably one of the top selling in the US over the past several years. I am sure it can be improved, and have some ideas myself on how, but it would require a lot of thought and effort to change something that is such a success. To be honest, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Digitrax user that thinks it took them 2 hours to learn the throttle. Most will be up and running with the features that they want to use much quicker than that. But that is why we have personal choice and a number of vendors with different approaches. Each will have their fans and exponents as well as critics.
I find it particularly interesting that there is such a divide between the European DCC manufacturers and the US. Lenz has a decent foothold here in the USA with both their own product and by designing devices for other brand names. But apart from them, the others seem to have very little presence in this market. Conversely, it seems that Digitrax and NCE have very little presence in Europe.
Hamltnblue Actually NCE's menu structure is closer to plain english and I consider it a late 90's type configuration when it comes to interface. The digitrax throttles I consider mid 80's when it was necessary due to limited memory and slow processors. I wouldn't suggest either one for a new throttle. It's time to bring things up to date with current technology. memory and displays are cheap. There is no reason why they shouldn't be to the point of checking the model of a decoder, and displaying CV's as plain text as to their function with plain text help and selections. You would just plug your base into a pc and update the latest info from the web. A standard over the counter USB stick that costs 10 bucks can hold the data of every decoder ever made and still be only a quarter full. Of course they can make them backwards compatible for those who want abreviations of actual commands and want to keep programming individual cv values while referencing decoder manuals. It's similar to how Microsoft kept dos in the background of windows for years to keep the dos lovers happy.
If I understand correctly you are describing Decoder Pro for the most part.
Also I can assure you DOS is alive and well, I use it regularly to earn a living.
Jack W.
is the 402D manual available in PDF anywhere yet??? i want to know how the higher functions are accessed?? i guess they have used A,B buttons as 1# and 2# like tv remotes but i would like a read........ on the dt400 debate a few posts back, i do like it ( got to really as it's the only fully loaded option? ) but i did prefer the 300/100 for size.
But where would you stick the screen for that? The 400s can't get any longer, or they become cumbersome and can more easily pry themselves off the fascia velcro holders. And a wider screan isn't ergonomical for the throttle knobs. And buttons can't be whacked out of the way, the whole point of the 400s is to have one function to one button. So you get a small, abreviation filled screen
For myself, I'm impartial to the UT4s myself, since I missed the 300s. I prefer the fit in my hand, dpn't run anywhere with DCC switches (anymore, thak the guy modelling us) the only thing I miss is consisting. I'm getting a 400 when Dad and I order/layaway the Empire Builder anyway, so I may stick with that. The only functions I need that are beypnd the 12 is that I enjoy the cab and radio chatter. But with MTH out of my picture, and Paragon being the only ones with that issue, I suspect I can take the above hint and move them around.
-Morgan
I sent Digitrax my own crude drawing of what i believe would be a true
one handed throttle
Of course the sent me a nice Ya Ya reply
But having the speed control roller on the side
would put it right at your thumb so you could roll it up or down
With out straining to reach it
same as the direction switch on the side it's right at your index finger
if your left handed just turn it over
Personally i don't need more than 10 buttons
Its hard for me to remember more than 10 functions
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
locoworksis the 402D manual available in PDF anywhere yet???
UR92
C&O Fan
Flashwave C&O Fan I like that, but would having all the stuff on the side make it any more sensitive to pocket bump or whathaveyou? The other is still the length. If you could, halve the length and find a nice blueprint setup to makre it more appreciable. Also, flipping it around would put buttons facing the palm where they could be inadvertently pressed. Unloess you could rig the keyboard setup on an axis?
I don't know if it would be any more prone to pocket bumps than a ut-4
But the keypad could easily be made to swivel
if you only used the 1 thru 10 mumbers it wouldn't have to be any longer than a cell phone
I guess I'm the oddball. I have no problem holding the DT400 in either hand, and using my thumb to turn the knob and double-click it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to work the uncoupling stick or whatever.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Capt. GrimekI'm a beginner with DCC. I use DT400s and the occasional utility throttles. I have to say that I've had absolutely no trouble using the 400 right from the get go, holding and rotating the speed and fwd./reverse knob(s) with one hand ( I have small hands) and learning and memorizing the function CV numbers. I keep reading and hearing that the manual is hard to understand and needs constant reference...forever, but I'm about the dummest computer guy around and have difficulty programming his vcr, but so far, everything in the manual seems to make clear-cut perfect sense to me. I've used a friend's NCE throttle and system and although the english named function knobs are nice and I thought initially superior, I have to say that I'm having no difficulty so far, remembering the function button number combinations and they get retained quickly. I don't have to understand hexi-decimal systems to use it, I just push the "numbers" I'm supposed to. I want to read through the pdf for the new throttle and see if it's going to have any useful applications for small layouts where I'm only a two step away from a plug-in to access a locomotive. The occasional runaway perhaps. I learned to use the DT400 during a busy club operations session and it was really no problem at all for this "rope and pulley technologist". They're just kind of ...ugly.
That´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US?
Flashwave C&O Fan I like that, but would having all the stuff on the side make it any more sensitive to pocket bump or whathaveyou? Snip
Maybe but the design is ergonomically correct
the speed control is right where you thumb is
as is the direction switch for your index finger
those are the 2 functions you use the most
GraffenThat´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US?
I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed. I think that the same might also go for the NCE throttle. Having been peripherally involved in the manufacture of low volume custom plastic molding for medical device cases, the cost of getting the injection mold tool is very high and can take many years to recover on a low cost, relatively low volume device. Digitrax is a relatively small company and chose to use this case design some years ago. I can't imagine that it made financial sense at the time to go custom then, and probably does not now? To do so would very likely add so much cost to the throttle that the list price would become a problem.
simon1966GraffenThat´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US? I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed.
I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed.
That is a true statement. The DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6.
I think that the same might also go for the NCE throttle. Having been peripherally involved in the manufacture of low volume custom plastic molding for medical device cases, the cost of getting the injection mold tool is very high and can take many years to recover on a low cost, relatively low volume device. Digitrax is a relatively small company and chose to use this case design some years ago. I can't imagine that it made financial sense at the time to go custom then, and probably does not now? To do so would very likely add so much cost to the throttle that the list price would become a problem.
I would have no reason to believe that isn't equally true.
Steve
StevertThe DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6.
They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume, high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
simon1966 StevertThe DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6. They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
Well I find it hard to understand that, USA is one of the biggest model railroad consumer-countrys in the world. If a BIG DCC-supplier can`t see that it is financially viable to invest in proper toolings, how can European companys?
I ask again, why not this (with cool design):
I also know that Märklins Central-Station 2 won a major design award.
I will be frank with you Graffen that paddle doesn't appeal to me at all. I simply don't like the look of it and the color. It reminds me of some control for toy cars.
It is of course a matter of preference, if it is a great design for you then I respect your opinion.
GraffenWell I find it hard to understand that, USA is one of the biggest model railroad consumer-countrys in the world. If a BIG DCC-supplier can`t see that it is financially viable to invest in proper toolings, how can European companys?
It is a business decision pure and simple. As I understand it Marklin is now in bankruptcy proceedings and I seem to recall that Roco is in financial trouble as well? It may be that they got their cost of goods out of whack resulting in financial difficulty. Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment.
jalajoie I will be frank with you Graffen that paddle doesn't appeal to me at all. I simply don't like the look of it and the color. It reminds me of some control for toy cars. It is of course a matter of preference, if it is a great design for you then I respect your opinion.
Well if it is a control for a toy train then? I really think that ergonomic design IS a dealmaker or breaker. And regarding the color, it comes in a blue wireless version as well.
And thanks for respecting my opinion, I respect all of yours as well.
simon1966 It is a business decision pure and simple. As I understand it Marklin is now in bankruptcy proceedings and I seem to recall that Roco is in financial trouble as well? It may be that they got their cost of goods out of whack resulting in financial difficulty. Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment.
To straighten this topic out would require a few pages . But to keep it short:
Märklin is mostly restored, and their financial problems was mainly created by their (former) owners, an investment company who cared more for their own salarys and bonuses than the company.
And Roco was in dire straits earlier (last year), but after some new strategies they too are on the rise.
And regarding that "Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment". You must try something new sometimes and invest in new tech and design. That is a standard business procedure. You can´t defend "old" designs with the statement that: "Maybe the customers won´t like the new design". If that would be the case, you all would be driving Model-T´s!
I don't disagree with you at all Graffen. I was just stating why I think Digitrax has so far stuck with an off the shelf package for the throttle. As I said earlier in the thread I can think of many ways that the DT400 could be improved, but fully understand why they are currently sticking with a formula that works well for them. They of course will live and die by their decisions. While they may be one of the "Big" DCC manufacturers in the US, I think you will find that they are a remarkably small family run business. I suspect that companies like Marklin are far bigger since the offer everything from models in numerous scales, track as well as control.