locoworks will there be a UR91 upgrade to a UR92 available??
will there be a UR91 upgrade to a UR92 available??
No upgrade. The UR92 is an entirely new board that had to be tested and approved by the FCC. About all that could be used from a UR91 is the front aluminum panel and they would have to change the label on that.
Plus the UR91 is still needed for DT400R's and DT402R's.
Martin Myers
CSX Robertlocoworksis the 402D manual available in PDF anywhere yet??? DT402 UR92
locoworksis the 402D manual available in PDF anywhere yet???
UR92
thanks again for the link, it answered my question for me. on another note regarding throttle upgrades in september, will there be a UR91 upgrade to a UR92 available??
Keep in mind that to change the shape of the case, you have to change the shape of the circuit board as well. There is I suspect absolutely NO difference between the DT400 and DT402 circuit boards. The difference is added in code to the chips, and the radio package is a daughter board anyway, always has been. This is why they can have one throttle that offers 3 options: no wireless, the old 900MHz simplex wireless, and the new 2.4GHz duplex wireless. FWIW, NCE does it the same way as well, the radio throttle is identical to the non-radio throttle, except the radio version has the radio daughterboard connected.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I suppose I could clarify what I meant by the ergonomics of the 400. To put it where I like it, much of it is hanging out the back of my hand, I don't feel like it's a solid grip on it, the way I can wrapt my hand around the blk of the UT4, and I suspect the roc control, since the knob is in the center and you almost have to
-Morgan
Capt. GrimekNah, you guys are missing the whole point. The reason Digitrax has not changed case design is that if they did, they'd no longer fit in your "Remote Boat" along with your VCR, DVD and TV remotes :-) The case shape doesn't bother me so much (although I do prefer NCE's dogbone) but I need shades for the "trick or treat"/1960's "Star Trek" orange and black with the "Hollywood Squares" graphic design! Anyway, to get this thread a bit more back on trax, are there going to be any real advantages to using the DT402 on small-medium sized layouts other than to re-access for runaways? Speaking of new designs...I"ve just downloaded a new version of Mac's "Safari" and will now find out if it allows indentation of paragraphs on this forum! (Not gonna hold my breath though.)
I am seeing a contest in the future for who can have the wildest paint job on their DT400 class controller.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
I don't disagree with you at all Graffen. I was just stating why I think Digitrax has so far stuck with an off the shelf package for the throttle. As I said earlier in the thread I can think of many ways that the DT400 could be improved, but fully understand why they are currently sticking with a formula that works well for them. They of course will live and die by their decisions. While they may be one of the "Big" DCC manufacturers in the US, I think you will find that they are a remarkably small family run business. I suspect that companies like Marklin are far bigger since the offer everything from models in numerous scales, track as well as control.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
jalajoie I will be frank with you Graffen that paddle doesn't appeal to me at all. I simply don't like the look of it and the color. It reminds me of some control for toy cars. It is of course a matter of preference, if it is a great design for you then I respect your opinion.
I will be frank with you Graffen that paddle doesn't appeal to me at all. I simply don't like the look of it and the color. It reminds me of some control for toy cars.
It is of course a matter of preference, if it is a great design for you then I respect your opinion.
Well if it is a control for a toy train then? I really think that ergonomic design IS a dealmaker or breaker. And regarding the color, it comes in a blue wireless version as well.
And thanks for respecting my opinion, I respect all of yours as well.
simon1966 It is a business decision pure and simple. As I understand it Marklin is now in bankruptcy proceedings and I seem to recall that Roco is in financial trouble as well? It may be that they got their cost of goods out of whack resulting in financial difficulty. Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment.
It is a business decision pure and simple. As I understand it Marklin is now in bankruptcy proceedings and I seem to recall that Roco is in financial trouble as well? It may be that they got their cost of goods out of whack resulting in financial difficulty. Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment.
To straighten this topic out would require a few pages . But to keep it short:
Märklin is mostly restored, and their financial problems was mainly created by their (former) owners, an investment company who cared more for their own salarys and bonuses than the company.
And Roco was in dire straits earlier (last year), but after some new strategies they too are on the rise.
And regarding that "Each company has to balance customer need and satisfaction against prudent investment". You must try something new sometimes and invest in new tech and design. That is a standard business procedure. You can´t defend "old" designs with the statement that: "Maybe the customers won´t like the new design". If that would be the case, you all would be driving Model-T´s!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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GraffenWell I find it hard to understand that, USA is one of the biggest model railroad consumer-countrys in the world. If a BIG DCC-supplier can`t see that it is financially viable to invest in proper toolings, how can European companys?
Jack W.
simon1966 StevertThe DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6. They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
StevertThe DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6.
They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
Well I find it hard to understand that, USA is one of the biggest model railroad consumer-countrys in the world. If a BIG DCC-supplier can`t see that it is financially viable to invest in proper toolings, how can European companys?
I ask again, why not this (with cool design):
I also know that Märklins Central-Station 2 won a major design award.
They sure do http://www.serpac.com/Products/Mseries/m-8.aspx having Googled that I did a search on "electronic enclosures" there is no shortage of manufacturers serving this market. A quick browse revealed a couple of NCE/MRC like dog-bone enclosures. Somewhat sadly, the company I work for recently had to go to China to get custom injection molding tooling made. The cost in Europe was astronomical and would have priced our product out of the market. Our business had grown to a point where we wanted to move away from off-the-shelf to custom, but you sure pay a price to do it. We sell a low volume, high cost product ($15K) but with tooling costs in the region of $100K you think real hard about making that kind of move. Must be an even harder decision when the retail is only $250!!
simon1966GraffenThat´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US? I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed.
GraffenThat´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US?
I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed.
That is a true statement. The DT4xx series of throttles use the Serpac M-8 and the UT4's use the Serpac M-6.
I think that the same might also go for the NCE throttle. Having been peripherally involved in the manufacture of low volume custom plastic molding for medical device cases, the cost of getting the injection mold tool is very high and can take many years to recover on a low cost, relatively low volume device. Digitrax is a relatively small company and chose to use this case design some years ago. I can't imagine that it made financial sense at the time to go custom then, and probably does not now? To do so would very likely add so much cost to the throttle that the list price would become a problem.
I would have no reason to believe that isn't equally true.
Steve
I may be wrong, but I would almost bet money that the case used for the DT400 is an off the shelf molding that they buy in and modify (holes for cable etc) rather than one that was custom designed. I think that the same might also go for the NCE throttle. Having been peripherally involved in the manufacture of low volume custom plastic molding for medical device cases, the cost of getting the injection mold tool is very high and can take many years to recover on a low cost, relatively low volume device. Digitrax is a relatively small company and chose to use this case design some years ago. I can't imagine that it made financial sense at the time to go custom then, and probably does not now? To do so would very likely add so much cost to the throttle that the list price would become a problem.
Flashwave C&O Fan I like that, but would having all the stuff on the side make it any more sensitive to pocket bump or whathaveyou? Snip
C&O Fan
Maybe but the design is ergonomically correct
the speed control is right where you thumb is
as is the direction switch for your index finger
those are the 2 functions you use the most
TerryinTexas
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Capt. GrimekI'm a beginner with DCC. I use DT400s and the occasional utility throttles. I have to say that I've had absolutely no trouble using the 400 right from the get go, holding and rotating the speed and fwd./reverse knob(s) with one hand ( I have small hands) and learning and memorizing the function CV numbers. I keep reading and hearing that the manual is hard to understand and needs constant reference...forever, but I'm about the dummest computer guy around and have difficulty programming his vcr, but so far, everything in the manual seems to make clear-cut perfect sense to me. I've used a friend's NCE throttle and system and although the english named function knobs are nice and I thought initially superior, I have to say that I'm having no difficulty so far, remembering the function button number combinations and they get retained quickly. I don't have to understand hexi-decimal systems to use it, I just push the "numbers" I'm supposed to. I want to read through the pdf for the new throttle and see if it's going to have any useful applications for small layouts where I'm only a two step away from a plug-in to access a locomotive. The occasional runaway perhaps. I learned to use the DT400 during a busy club operations session and it was really no problem at all for this "rope and pulley technologist". They're just kind of ...ugly.
That´s what I thought as well, don´t they hire Industrial designers in the US?
I guess I'm the oddball. I have no problem holding the DT400 in either hand, and using my thumb to turn the knob and double-click it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to work the uncoupling stick or whatever.
Flashwave C&O Fan I like that, but would having all the stuff on the side make it any more sensitive to pocket bump or whathaveyou? The other is still the length. If you could, halve the length and find a nice blueprint setup to makre it more appreciable. Also, flipping it around would put buttons facing the palm where they could be inadvertently pressed. Unloess you could rig the keyboard setup on an axis?
I don't know if it would be any more prone to pocket bumps than a ut-4
But the keypad could easily be made to swivel
if you only used the 1 thru 10 mumbers it wouldn't have to be any longer than a cell phone
I sent Digitrax my own crude drawing of what i believe would be a true
one handed throttle
Of course the sent me a nice Ya Ya reply
But having the speed control roller on the side
would put it right at your thumb so you could roll it up or down
With out straining to reach it
same as the direction switch on the side it's right at your index finger
if your left handed just turn it over
Personally i don't need more than 10 buttons
Its hard for me to remember more than 10 functions
Hamltnblue Actually NCE's menu structure is closer to plain english and I consider it a late 90's type configuration when it comes to interface. The digitrax throttles I consider mid 80's when it was necessary due to limited memory and slow processors. I wouldn't suggest either one for a new throttle. It's time to bring things up to date with current technology. memory and displays are cheap. There is no reason why they shouldn't be to the point of checking the model of a decoder, and displaying CV's as plain text as to their function with plain text help and selections. You would just plug your base into a pc and update the latest info from the web. A standard over the counter USB stick that costs 10 bucks can hold the data of every decoder ever made and still be only a quarter full. Of course they can make them backwards compatible for those who want abreviations of actual commands and want to keep programming individual cv values while referencing decoder manuals. It's similar to how Microsoft kept dos in the background of windows for years to keep the dos lovers happy.
Actually NCE's menu structure is closer to plain english and I consider it a late 90's type configuration when it comes to interface. The digitrax throttles I consider mid 80's when it was necessary due to limited memory and slow processors. I wouldn't suggest either one for a new throttle. It's time to bring things up to date with current technology. memory and displays are cheap. There is no reason why they shouldn't be to the point of checking the model of a decoder, and displaying CV's as plain text as to their function with plain text help and selections. You would just plug your base into a pc and update the latest info from the web. A standard over the counter USB stick that costs 10 bucks can hold the data of every decoder ever made and still be only a quarter full.
Of course they can make them backwards compatible for those who want abreviations of actual commands and want to keep programming individual cv values while referencing decoder manuals. It's similar to how Microsoft kept dos in the background of windows for years to keep the dos lovers happy.
But where would you stick the screen for that? The 400s can't get any longer, or they become cumbersome and can more easily pry themselves off the fascia velcro holders. And a wider screan isn't ergonomical for the throttle knobs. And buttons can't be whacked out of the way, the whole point of the 400s is to have one function to one button. So you get a small, abreviation filled screen
For myself, I'm impartial to the UT4s myself, since I missed the 300s. I prefer the fit in my hand, dpn't run anywhere with DCC switches (anymore, thak the guy modelling us) the only thing I miss is consisting. I'm getting a 400 when Dad and I order/layaway the Empire Builder anyway, so I may stick with that. The only functions I need that are beypnd the 12 is that I enjoy the cab and radio chatter. But with MTH out of my picture, and Paragon being the only ones with that issue, I suspect I can take the above hint and move them around.
is the 402D manual available in PDF anywhere yet??? i want to know how the higher functions are accessed?? i guess they have used A,B buttons as 1# and 2# like tv remotes but i would like a read........ on the dt400 debate a few posts back, i do like it ( got to really as it's the only fully loaded option? ) but i did prefer the 300/100 for size.
If I understand correctly you are describing Decoder Pro for the most part.
Also I can assure you DOS is alive and well, I use it regularly to earn a living.
Graffen I wondered why they don´t release a "new" throttle instead with a nicer interface?
I think that the answer to this is that the DT400 series throttle is incredibly popular and very much liked by those that use it. Of course it is not the perfect throttle for everyone, but has a very loyal following. I would venture to guess that this throttle is probably one of the top selling in the US over the past several years. I am sure it can be improved, and have some ideas myself on how, but it would require a lot of thought and effort to change something that is such a success. To be honest, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Digitrax user that thinks it took them 2 hours to learn the throttle. Most will be up and running with the features that they want to use much quicker than that. But that is why we have personal choice and a number of vendors with different approaches. Each will have their fans and exponents as well as critics.
I find it particularly interesting that there is such a divide between the European DCC manufacturers and the US. Lenz has a decent foothold here in the USA with both their own product and by designing devices for other brand names. But apart from them, the others seem to have very little presence in this market. Conversely, it seems that Digitrax and NCE have very little presence in Europe.
simon1966 Based on my own observation, I think that Graffen has a point. Some of the European DCC manufacturers have really done a nice job with graphical user interfaces that appear at first glance to be simple to use. However, another observation that I would make is that the main US manufacturers seem to have focused on the needs of a modeller that wants walk around capability with single handed control. Compare an ESU system to an NCE and you can see the difference. Like many, I would agree that the learning curve on a Digitrax throttle is slightly longer than others. But once mastered is much quicker to operate. Its like using keyboard short cuts in a PC application rather than scrolling through the menu system. However for me, the hands down biggest advantage of the DT400 series is that it is a genuine dual throttle. The twin knobs and controls allowing full control of 2 locos simultaneously is something I would never want to give up.
Based on my own observation, I think that Graffen has a point. Some of the European DCC manufacturers have really done a nice job with graphical user interfaces that appear at first glance to be simple to use.
However, another observation that I would make is that the main US manufacturers seem to have focused on the needs of a modeller that wants walk around capability with single handed control. Compare an ESU system to an NCE and you can see the difference.
Like many, I would agree that the learning curve on a Digitrax throttle is slightly longer than others. But once mastered is much quicker to operate. Its like using keyboard short cuts in a PC application rather than scrolling through the menu system. However for me, the hands down biggest advantage of the DT400 series is that it is a genuine dual throttle. The twin knobs and controls allowing full control of 2 locos simultaneously is something I would never want to give up.
Sorry for hijackin the thread, but I wondered why they don´t release a "new" throttle instead with a nicer interface?
The reason I showed the Roco Multimaus is that I was looking at the Digitrax and other US systems when I was shopping for a new system. The reason i got the Roco was that it has all the functions I need and then some! It took me 2 hours to learn it and that is my kind of interface . The Digitrax seemed to have a steep learning.curve, and actually, after trying one I opted them out. And if I would have wanted a walkaround system I would have bought this instead:
Wireless with computerinterface and software.
tstage Well, then - A beearly (vs. belated) "Happy Father's Day, Simon!" And you realize when you get your DT402D and UR92 that you will be required to write and submit a review on it. That's part of the privilege and responsibility for being first. Tom
Well, then - A beearly (vs. belated) "Happy Father's Day, Simon!" And you realize when you get your DT402D and UR92 that you will be required to write and submit a review on it. That's part of the privilege and responsibility for being first.
Tom
I read somewhere that these things are shipping on the 22nd to the dealers, so hopefully Bruce got his orders in and that I might see mine sometime in early July. I will certainly write up my experience on this, as I image others will as well.
Graffen I prefer this:
I prefer this: