cascadenorthernrr BMMECNYC No There is not adequate space inside the locomotive to move the necessary equipment. Even if you did manage to squeeze it in, there would not be adquate space inside to do the required monthly inspections and maintenance. Google photos of interior of EMD B unit. There is just enough space to walk through both sides, and open up the engine for maintenance. Having been inside of an FL9, there is barely room in there as it is and thats a longer locomotive. EMD F_ B unit Length 50ft. SD40T-2 : 70ft 8in. EMD E7/8/9 B units : 70ft, but they have twin 567 12 cylinder engines, probably not going to fit in there either, even though it is longer. Not even in a Alco PB unit? (they seem wider than EMD units to me)
BMMECNYC No There is not adequate space inside the locomotive to move the necessary equipment. Even if you did manage to squeeze it in, there would not be adquate space inside to do the required monthly inspections and maintenance. Google photos of interior of EMD B unit. There is just enough space to walk through both sides, and open up the engine for maintenance. Having been inside of an FL9, there is barely room in there as it is and thats a longer locomotive. EMD F_ B unit Length 50ft. SD40T-2 : 70ft 8in. EMD E7/8/9 B units : 70ft, but they have twin 567 12 cylinder engines, probably not going to fit in there either, even though it is longer.
No
There is not adequate space inside the locomotive to move the necessary equipment. Even if you did manage to squeeze it in, there would not be adquate space inside to do the required monthly inspections and maintenance. Google photos of interior of EMD B unit. There is just enough space to walk through both sides, and open up the engine for maintenance. Having been inside of an FL9, there is barely room in there as it is and thats a longer locomotive.
EMD F_ B unit Length 50ft. SD40T-2 : 70ft 8in. EMD E7/8/9 B units : 70ft, but they have twin 567 12 cylinder engines, probably not going to fit in there either, even though it is longer.
Not even in a Alco PB unit? (they seem wider than EMD units to me)
Wider? they are roughly the same 10' wide as all North American Standard Gauge trains.
Sheldon
Lot of gauges - no speedometer:
http://trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/cab_details.jpg
BRAKIE 1019x Second was that the diesels had speedometers and the steam did not. I find that hard to believe because a steam locomotive engineer would need to know his speed for the legal track speed,restricting signal speed and sections of track under speed restrictions plus the FRA would red flag (tag) any locomotive without speedometers due to safety.
1019x Second was that the diesels had speedometers and the steam did not.
I find that hard to believe because a steam locomotive engineer would need to know his speed for the legal track speed,restricting signal speed and sections of track under speed restrictions plus the FRA would red flag (tag) any locomotive without speedometers due to safety.
In in the late 40's and early 50's, very few steam locos had speedometers.
Go to a few museums, or even current steam tourist operations, I don't think you find too many speedometers......
But every story I have ever heard from/about a steam engineer, they knew pretty close how fast they were going by using a watch, mile markers and a chart - or just the "feel".
All the east coast Appalachian roads double headed steam and diesel together all through the late forties and 50's - speedometers did not really seem to be an issue.
As for regulations today, or even in the last 30-40 years, OK. But except for Strasbug, and the other steam tourist lines, steam ended pretty much by 1962 with the last locos on the N&W, that was 65 years ago - regulations were different.....
Not really into steam that much, are you Larry?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
cuyamaMany (most? nearly all?) steam engines back in the day did not have speedometers. Engineers determined their speed by experience and feel, or more precisely using mile markers and a railroad watch. Employee timetables included conversion tables from minutes and seconds per mile to MPH. This carried on long past the transition era -- here's an example from a 1976 WP ETT. There are many other examples.
Not buying it for one reason.. There are restricting signals,restricted speed zones including stations,crossevers and yard limits a engineer would need to know his exact speed..Maybe in the early 1900s they got by with guessing but,those were humans running those engines and the chance of error would be to high...
There was a railroad regulations in place long before the FRA.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Is it possible for b units to be reconfigured like tunnel motors?
1019x I once worked with a fellow that was working for Southern Railway on the Knoxville Divison during the steam to diesel transition. Occasionally there would be a heavy passenger train and they did not have enough B-units to handle the weight. In that case they doubled headed with a steam locomotive. He said that they always put the steam locomotive behind the diesel for two reasons. One was they were concerned about the diesel air filiters sucking in all of the soot and cinders. Second was that the diesels had speedometers and the steam did not.
I once worked with a fellow that was working for Southern Railway on the Knoxville Divison during the steam to diesel transition. Occasionally there would be a heavy passenger train and they did not have enough B-units to handle the weight. In that case they doubled headed with a steam locomotive. He said that they always put the steam locomotive behind the diesel for two reasons. One was they were concerned about the diesel air filiters sucking in all of the soot and cinders. Second was that the diesels had speedometers and the steam did not.
BRAKIEI find that hard to believe because a steam locomotive engineer would need to know his speed for the legal track speed,restricting signal speed and sections of track under speed restrictions plus the FRA would red flag (tag) any locomotive without speedometers due to safety.
The FRA didn't come into existence until 1966. 1019x was referring to the transition era.
Many (most? nearly all?) steam engines back in the day did not have speedometers. Engineers determined their speed by experience and feel, or more precisely using mile markers and a railroad watch. Employee timetables included conversion tables from minutes and seconds per mile to MPH. This carried on long past the transition era -- here's an example from a 1976 WP ETT. There are many other examples.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
1019xSecond was that the diesels had speedometers and the steam did not.
Ok I see now. But it is still a novel idea! Thank you!
cascadenorthernrrThose points are true put anything is possible if you have the will! Also how pray tell did the CP manage it on the 1979/80 Royal Hudson tour?
They rebuilt the Hudson cab and added a diesel control stand.The engineer would need to be qualified for steam and diesel operation..
Again this would not be possible in the transition era due to the various crew,work and safety agreements between the railroads and BLE..Then the FRA would have concerns.
However,in your HO world you may do as you please.
Those points are true put anything is possible if you have the will! Also how pray tell did the CP manage it on the 1979/80 Royal Hudson tour?
Fun facts..Back in the day the BLE would have a lot to say about a steam engine with B units(not possible anyway)and since those B units would be considered as helpers they would need a crew. Then there is the safety issue-the fireman can not check the gauges in the B units.
By the by, I would like to add that I passed this idea on to Bill Rogers the owner of the Southern Pacific Railroad in the Cascades (spcascades.com) as a suggestion for a YouTube video. Hopefully he does it!
Do you have any pictures of it?
I've seen it done. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada and make it out to the Grand Canyon (south rim) at least once a year. I've seen GCRR heavy mikado 4960 (ex C.B.&Q.) with an Alco FB unit, painted pullman green, coupled behind the tender to act as a booster/helper.
Well my railroad is set in the 50s and also diesel is not a rival of steam they are equal on my rr
I had forgotten about the auxilliary tender, the tank car for water, and the boxcar behind the F units. I also forgot that the two F units had different sorts of grills. What the photo does not show are the beautifully polished passenger cars that were in that train, including an old fashioned observation car with the shiny brass railings. I do recall the impossibly handsome Royal Canadian Mounty who would pose in his red uniform in front of the locomotive when it was on display.
Just to reiterate - when I saw this, that engine was an excursion locomotive (the same one that ran for years out of North Vancouver) and thus the extra throttle that would have controlled the diesels was likely installed on a temporary basis just for this trip. I have no idea whether that was even being thought about when the steam locomotive was in active service, but I suspect the theoretical notion of a throttle separate from the locomotive itself and placed in the cab of a steam locomotive was possible.
The entire transition from steam to diesel was generally so rapid once a railroad decided to do it that I do not know if any would have spent the money. Another factor is that to the extent B units were on a roster, they were usually needed to permit the A units to pull the trains to which they were assigned. Those are practical issues.
But our OP was asking if it was possible, not actually done or actually likely, and I guess the answer is yes, it was possible.
Dave Nelson
Becarefull doing this, is this is copyrighted, and it says it can not be used commercially. That's why I didn't post it.
And to keep this all in context, the train that Dave talked about in a previous post, and this train in the picture are from the 70's, and are excursion type. Your talking about an actually working steam train in the 40's.
It's your railroad, you do what you want.
Mike.
My You Tube
I just had to search for this. I didn't post the picture, as it's from Alamy, but here is a link to the page of pictures where I seen it. It looks likes it's a freight train, and there is no way to tell if the B units are working.
Taken in Minneapolis, 1975
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/pacific-steam-locomotive.html
EDIT: Scroll down about half way, it's on the right side.
The reason is to not to spoil the streamlining of a passenger train!!! And also IT HAS BEEN DONE!!! The CP did it for the royal Hudson Soo/CP tour! Have a little imagination folks!
cascadenorthernrrBut I do not agree with that, a few other people here have stated that that was possible with transition era tech!
I don't believe that is correct. MU'ing was a challenge for a while even between different diesel manufacturers, let alone between a steam unit and a diesel unit.
cascadenorthernrrAlso as my previous post stated is it possible that an additional crew member to operate the diesel controls from the cab or a doghouse or a station in the booster unit?
Why would any railroad do that when an engineer and fireman could sit comfortably and safely in an A unit? And again, work rules were more important than technology in the transition era as to how things were done.
You should do whatever you like, and I'll withdraw from this conversation.
Union agreements of the time probably would have required at least a two man crew, and a damp and cramped doghouse probably wouldn't have worked. Since the operator needed a real cab in which to work, an A unit would make more sense. Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your idea.
cuyama This never happened in the actual transition era. The technology didn't exist, union work agreements likely wouldn't have allowed it, and there would have been a huge safety concern. One can put any crazy thing they like on their own layout, of course, since having fun is the prime directive.
This never happened in the actual transition era. The technology didn't exist, union work agreements likely wouldn't have allowed it, and there would have been a huge safety concern.
One can put any crazy thing they like on their own layout, of course, since having fun is the prime directive.
Your opinion is appreciated. But I do not agree with that, a few other people here have stated that that was possible with transition era tech! Also as my previous post stated is it possible that an additional crew member to operate the diesel controls from the cab or a doghouse or a station in the booster unit?
Thanks, is it possible for a seperate crew member to do this either in the cab or maybe in a doghouse on the tender?
Keep in mind that during the actual age of steam I doubt if controlling diesel helpers from the cab of the steam locomotive, by a single engineer, would have been consistent with union agreements. Indeed the railroads were initially fearful that each unit in a multi unit diesel electric consist would be required to have its own crew under those agreements, even though the technology existed to have them all controlled by one engineer.
I cannot seem to find photos or videos of the CP Royal Hudson tour of the US but I suspect I am just not looking in the right place
Also which roads actually practiced this? Besides the CP of course! In addition which modifications would I need to make to my motive power to make it look right?