Hi I have an interesting question for you all. Is it possible (hypothetically speaking) for a diesel b-unit to be placed behind the tender of a steam locomotive and be operated without an a-unit? Just picture if you will the Southern Pacific Daylight rounding a curve in the mountains led by a GS-4 and followed by an Alco PB unit what a sight that would be!
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Yes it is possible, and I have seen it done. When the CP Royal Hudson went on a tour of CP and Soo Line cities many years ago, around 1979-80 or so, in addition to a train of dark red passenger cars painted to match the dark red on the engine's tender, two F unit "B" units similarly painted were part of the consist, and all were in a high gloss paint. Presumably the Hudson was retro-fitted with a throttle in the cab that could control the diesel electrics, and there were likely regular MU hoses at the back of the tender. When the train left Waukesha WI rather late at night, as the train was being assembled for departure the locomotive was having a lot of wheel slip issues, until it coupled on to the F units and the MU hoses were attached. Leaving town the 4-6-4 put on a good show of smoke and loud exhausts, but once it was running at track speed north on the Soo Line past Duplainville (now CN trackage ironically) it was obvious that the primary motive power was the diesels - they probably wanted to make it all the way to Stevens Point with that tender full of water and fuel. The steam power was more to power the whistle (although the engine also had a distinctive horn that blew for crossings with the two longs, a short, and a long using the openings musical notes of O Canada!) and keep lubricating lines working. Even with no real steam exhausts to be heard, hearing first generation EMD prime movers working hard as we waiting at a totally dark country crossing at midnight was a chilling sound.
I believe other excursion steam has been fitted with a diesel locomotive control stand in the cab, so in theory any diesel electric, cab unit or B unit, could be coupled to it. In the case of the Royal Hudson train, the goal was to make the F units look inconspicuously like the rest of the train.
Dave Nelson
The UP can MU diesels with its steam. Well not exactly. In any of those set ups there are two separate sets of controls the diesel and the steam and the engineer controls each set of power independently of the other.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Wow I had no idea any actual railroads did that! To actually have a prototype for it, that's wonderful! Thank you for the information!
Interesting. Thanks!
As far as I know, the ability to control diesels from the steam engine that the others described only appeared much later with preserved steam. Clinchfield may have been the pioneer. If you are modelling the transition era, the diesels required a separate engineer and a control cab.
cx500 As far as I know, the ability to control diesels from the steam engine that the others described only appeared much later with preserved steam. Clinchfield may have been the pioneer. If you are modelling the transition era, the diesels required a separate engineer and a control cab.
Well even if the prototype didn't do it at that time. Was it possible with transition era tech to do it?
This is the kind of thread I like.
Only if you're being prototypical. That and so much more was possible at that time
dinodanthetrainman This is the kind of thread I like. cx500 As far as I know, the ability to control diesels from the steam engine that the others described only appeared much later with preserved steam. Clinchfield may have been the pioneer. If you are modelling the transition era, the diesels required a separate engineer and a control cab. Only if you're being prototypical. That and so much more was possible at that time
Ok thanks!
Your Welcome!
The GS4 and the Alco PB unit is actually somthing I have always wanted to do.
Please check out my other thread about the Old Vicksburg Bridge and the Thebes Bridge!
dknelson Yes it is possible, and I have seen it done. When the CP Royal Hudson went on a tour of CP and Soo Line cities many years ago, around 1979-80 or so, in addition to a train of dark red passenger cars painted to match the dark red on the engine's tender, two F unit "B" units similarly painted were part of the consist, and all were in a high gloss paint. Presumably the Hudson was retro-fitted with a throttle in the cab that could control the diesel electrics, and there were likely regular MU hoses at the back of the tender. When the train left Waukesha WI rather late at night, as the train was being assembled for departure the locomotive was having a lot of wheel slip issues, until it coupled on to the F units and the MU hoses were attached. Leaving town the 4-6-4 put on a good show of smoke and loud exhausts, but once it was running at track speed north on the Soo Line past Duplainville (now CN trackage ironically) it was obvious that the primary motive power was the diesels - they probably wanted to make it all the way to Stevens Point with that tender full of water and fuel. The steam power was more to power the whistle (although the engine also had a distinctive horn that blew for crossings with the two longs, a short, and a long using the openings musical notes of O Canada!) and keep lubricating lines working. Even with no real steam exhausts to be heard, hearing first generation EMD prime movers working hard as we waiting at a totally dark country crossing at midnight was a chilling sound. I believe other excursion steam has been fitted with a diesel locomotive control stand in the cab, so in theory any diesel electric, cab unit or B unit, could be coupled to it. In the case of the Royal Hudson train, the goal was to make the F units look inconspicuously like the rest of the train. Dave Nelson
How can I find photos of that train?
Also which roads actually practiced this? Besides the CP of course! In addition which modifications would I need to make to my motive power to make it look right?
Keep in mind that during the actual age of steam I doubt if controlling diesel helpers from the cab of the steam locomotive, by a single engineer, would have been consistent with union agreements. Indeed the railroads were initially fearful that each unit in a multi unit diesel electric consist would be required to have its own crew under those agreements, even though the technology existed to have them all controlled by one engineer.
I cannot seem to find photos or videos of the CP Royal Hudson tour of the US but I suspect I am just not looking in the right place
Thanks, is it possible for a seperate crew member to do this either in the cab or maybe in a doghouse on the tender?
This never happened in the actual transition era. The technology didn't exist, union work agreements likely wouldn't have allowed it, and there would have been a huge safety concern.
One can put any crazy thing they like on their own layout, of course, since having fun is the prime directive.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama This never happened in the actual transition era. The technology didn't exist, union work agreements likely wouldn't have allowed it, and there would have been a huge safety concern. One can put any crazy thing they like on their own layout, of course, since having fun is the prime directive.
Your opinion is appreciated. But I do not agree with that, a few other people here have stated that that was possible with transition era tech! Also as my previous post stated is it possible that an additional crew member to operate the diesel controls from the cab or a doghouse or a station in the booster unit?
Union agreements of the time probably would have required at least a two man crew, and a damp and cramped doghouse probably wouldn't have worked. Since the operator needed a real cab in which to work, an A unit would make more sense. Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your idea.
cascadenorthernrrBut I do not agree with that, a few other people here have stated that that was possible with transition era tech!
I don't believe that is correct. MU'ing was a challenge for a while even between different diesel manufacturers, let alone between a steam unit and a diesel unit.
cascadenorthernrrAlso as my previous post stated is it possible that an additional crew member to operate the diesel controls from the cab or a doghouse or a station in the booster unit?
Why would any railroad do that when an engineer and fireman could sit comfortably and safely in an A unit? And again, work rules were more important than technology in the transition era as to how things were done.
You should do whatever you like, and I'll withdraw from this conversation.
The reason is to not to spoil the streamlining of a passenger train!!! And also IT HAS BEEN DONE!!! The CP did it for the royal Hudson Soo/CP tour! Have a little imagination folks!
I just had to search for this. I didn't post the picture, as it's from Alamy, but here is a link to the page of pictures where I seen it. It looks likes it's a freight train, and there is no way to tell if the B units are working.
Taken in Minneapolis, 1975
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/pacific-steam-locomotive.html
Mike.
EDIT: Scroll down about half way, it's on the right side.
My You Tube
Becarefull doing this, is this is copyrighted, and it says it can not be used commercially. That's why I didn't post it.
And to keep this all in context, the train that Dave talked about in a previous post, and this train in the picture are from the 70's, and are excursion type. Your talking about an actually working steam train in the 40's.
It's your railroad, you do what you want.
I had forgotten about the auxilliary tender, the tank car for water, and the boxcar behind the F units. I also forgot that the two F units had different sorts of grills. What the photo does not show are the beautifully polished passenger cars that were in that train, including an old fashioned observation car with the shiny brass railings. I do recall the impossibly handsome Royal Canadian Mounty who would pose in his red uniform in front of the locomotive when it was on display.
Just to reiterate - when I saw this, that engine was an excursion locomotive (the same one that ran for years out of North Vancouver) and thus the extra throttle that would have controlled the diesels was likely installed on a temporary basis just for this trip. I have no idea whether that was even being thought about when the steam locomotive was in active service, but I suspect the theoretical notion of a throttle separate from the locomotive itself and placed in the cab of a steam locomotive was possible.
The entire transition from steam to diesel was generally so rapid once a railroad decided to do it that I do not know if any would have spent the money. Another factor is that to the extent B units were on a roster, they were usually needed to permit the A units to pull the trains to which they were assigned. Those are practical issues.
But our OP was asking if it was possible, not actually done or actually likely, and I guess the answer is yes, it was possible.
Well my railroad is set in the 50s and also diesel is not a rival of steam they are equal on my rr
I've seen it done. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada and make it out to the Grand Canyon (south rim) at least once a year. I've seen GCRR heavy mikado 4960 (ex C.B.&Q.) with an Alco FB unit, painted pullman green, coupled behind the tender to act as a booster/helper.
Do you have any pictures of it?
By the by, I would like to add that I passed this idea on to Bill Rogers the owner of the Southern Pacific Railroad in the Cascades (spcascades.com) as a suggestion for a YouTube video. Hopefully he does it!
Fun facts..Back in the day the BLE would have a lot to say about a steam engine with B units(not possible anyway)and since those B units would be considered as helpers they would need a crew. Then there is the safety issue-the fireman can not check the gauges in the B units.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Those points are true put anything is possible if you have the will! Also how pray tell did the CP manage it on the 1979/80 Royal Hudson tour?