Here is something interesting,
I was born in December 1993, too late to see cabooses on freight trains, but just in time to see Amtrak's fleet of Amfleet San Diegans, Metroliner Cab Cars with the distinctive black/yellow stripes, F40PH's, F59PHI's, Dash 8's, and P40's in the Phase 3/Phase 4 paint, as well as red/silver, blue/yellow units on BNSF following the 1996 merger. Throw in Metrolink's White/Blue Octagon Cars and F59PH's.
I recall seeing a few Conrail units in BNSF's Commerce yard in 2002/2003.
Looking back, I'm glad I got to see all that variety, including the F40PH's. Little did I know these locomotives would become a huge hit among trainbuffs, modelers, and on the Internet following thier retirement.
I don't think this has to do with depression or optimism. I think what Brakie is saying that even in the 1950's, there were older freight cars being used on railroads along with the post war newer stuff. Did railroads really spend money washing or straightening the dents on a 20 year old coal hopper, or spent money replacing it because it didn't look pretty? Maybe the need for increased capacity as well as regulations propelled the investment in new rolling stock, but I'm sure railroads tried to get the most out of their older equipment and wouldn't spend resources keeping freight cars pretty.
This feeds into the realism thread in the General forum, but I assume there also were decades old buildings next to the new, and private industries would repurpose old buildings, or not spend the money to raze them, even in the 50s.
- Douglas
BRAKIE According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s.
According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainThe whole idea of a layout is to recreate the glory days of railroading, not early warnings of its decline. Rich
That was in the so called glory days as well as the "transition" area.
90% of the 50 era layouts I've seen is way to pristine and doesn't even resemble the 50s.
According to some railroad historical buffs the "glory days" ended with the coming of the boxcab and improved highways in the 20s..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
ATLANTIC CENTRALTell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
You model '54 so,a abandon shop building or two would be seen..These buildings doesn't need to be large. A small tooling shop or a small carpenter shop that's no longer needed. Its not a big deal like you're thinking it is.
I model 77/78 with lots of new 50-53' boxcars and SSRy unused small wooden office building still stands near the modern office-a BLMA yard office.
When I model SCR in 94/95 the old wooden office building is removed.The SSRy white office building is replaced with SCR tan office building-another BLMA yard office. When I model Ohio Central in 94/95 there is no office building.That area is used as a trailer drop lot since the gravel parking area for the offices remains.
If I had a larger ISL I would add one or two abandon industries or maybe their foot prints with or without a cut off rail siding.
Driving by the local CSX mainline and saw a parked train with a variety of rolling stock. Tank cars of various types, waffle box cars, high cube box cars, even a few small hoppers that looked like they could be 4427s if any are still in service, some 2 bay covered hoppers too. Of course, the doubelheaded locos were nondescript comfort-cab six axles, but the train itelf probably had as much variety and interest as any train of any era.
And, yes, that track is a mainline, so it operates a few unit double stack and autorack trains.
richhotrain When I was a kid, I built models of WWII airplanes. They looked as if they had just come off the assembly line. They did not appear to be all shot up or mangled as a result of a crash landing, or worse. Why would I want to do otherwise? Rich
When I was a kid, I built models of WWII airplanes. They looked as if they had just come off the assembly line. They did not appear to be all shot up or mangled as a result of a crash landing, or worse. Why would I want to do otherwise?
I don't know why YOU would want to do otherwise. A new airplane is a beautiful airplane. Usually. But SOME people go the other direction. On the cover of the January Fine Scale Modeler recently was a model of a B-24 with a wingtip in the water as it was going down flaming.
Some people want nice, new and pretty. Some want disgusting and worn out. And some want in between that. We're sorta seeing that in this topic.
It would be realistic for me to run a garbage train in amongst my stack trains. Ain't gonna happen. And then there's grafitti. Wow. There is one hardly anyone around here does. I know I don't. And won't. And yet it's EVERYWHERE.
And even when someone does a REALLY tight job of modeling a scene/location (which really is pretty rare in model railroading), remember that they PICKED that scene/location.
ALL of we model railroaders are trying, to varying degree, to recreate a reality. Note, for example, that people who run Thomas equipment are NOT referred to as model railroaders. Though they may admittedly be having fun.
But ALL of we model railroaders are also recreating a fantasy. That is the fantasy that sort of MAKES us be model railroaders. It was somehow generated inside us. And there is no reason why everyone would develop the same fantasy.
When I was in junior high, we drove past a Santa Fe Geep in zebra stripe on a break while switching orange packing sheds. That view is still in my head. For some reason. And so I recently ordered a Walthers Santa Fe Geep and some Intermountain Santa Fe reefers. And I don't even model the southwest.
Some people's fantasy is a beautiful like-new Empire Builder going through the Cascades. Others is a falling down ratty old building next to a falling down ratty old switcher.
Ed
Rich, thank you for making some great points.
And again, buildings don't fall apart over night. And just because a building is old, or shows some wear, or is empty at a particular time, that is different from "abandoned", roof caved in, windows busted out, etc.
The B&O shops in downtown Baltimore started being phased out in the mid 50's.
The old "Roundhouse car shop" is now the heart of the museum, fully restored inside and out. But it never was allowed to deteriorate. In 1953 it went directly from being the passenger car shop to being the museum. It only required major restoration in 2003 when snow collapsed the roof.
But I remember those buildings from my childhood in the 60's. Yes they looked "old", and yes they were not being used for much other than storage (of historic cars and locos for the museum), but they were not a "wreck" either. Most of those buildings did not look a wreck or get taken down until the 70's.
But one of those shop buildings remains, and houses C&O Allegheny 1604, USRA 2-8-2 4500, 4-6-2 President "Washington", and more - must not have been in too bad a shape in 1954.........
I grew up in and around this 300 year old city of Baltimore, yes we have old stuff, some of it shows its age, and should be modeled as such. There is also constant repair, restoration, rebuilding, renwal, growth and change.
Baltimore is still full of 100 and 200 year old buildings....buildings that age, get repaired, get restored, then age again.
Tell me Larry, at which part of their life cycle shoud we model each one?
We can't model it all......
And I will repeat, city or industrial "dirt" is different from neglect and decay......
So maybe things are different in Baltimore than they are in Ohio?
Sheldon
richhotrainI believe that the point Sheldon is making, and one that I agree with, concerns the core hobby spirit of modeling a specific era prototype. The vast majority of modelers are going to try to replicate a railroad(s) operating in their full glory, not their demise.
Two abandon shop buildings only strengthens believability and shows the true picture of the 50s..Any old goat that was around in the 50s will recall those abandon shops. You can't hide from history.
BTW..All B17s and B24s had bullet or flak patches it was the very nature of the beast after the first or second mission.
BRAKIE richhotrain Dunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs. Its called modeling realism..One could not help but see the change taking place steam was dying and being shoved out the door to the scrap line as quickly as possible.Abandon shop buildings told the story.
richhotrain Dunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs.
Its called modeling realism..One could not help but see the change taking place steam was dying and being shoved out the door to the scrap line as quickly as possible.Abandon shop buildings told the story.
richhotrainDunno. Seems a bit counterproductive to build a model railroad for the purpose of replicating the demise of steam, the closing of facilities, and the loss of jobs.
A couple of abandon shop buildings on a 50 era layout is not Dearborn Station of '71 and its a rather poor comparison since a lot of those steam shop building stood for several years before being razed some lasted into the 70s. The Bellevue roundhouse still stands and being used as MOW building.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars. Actually its about modeling the 50s with the closing of shops..Any layout emulating the 50s could have a abandon shop or two or a downsized roundhouse. That was the point.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
Actually its about modeling the 50s with the closing of shops..Any layout emulating the 50s could have a abandon shop or two or a downsized roundhouse. That was the point.
If I were to do that on my layout, I would model the closing of Dearborn Station in 1971 and the demolition of the train shed in 1976. Here is what it would look like.
7j43k And then there's the "international" container trains. Those are carrying 20', 40', and 45' boxes. Typically on 5 unit 40' well cars. But, again, not always. The 53' wells show up. And there's even an occasional 56'. And the paint schemes on those containers varies with each train. There'll be an "Evergreen" train, or a "Hyundai/Hanjin" train, for example. And those trains also carry a vast mix of other leased and other lines' boxes. Ed
And then there's the "international" container trains. Those are carrying 20', 40', and 45' boxes. Typically on 5 unit 40' well cars. But, again, not always. The 53' wells show up. And there's even an occasional 56'. And the paint schemes on those containers varies with each train. There'll be an "Evergreen" train, or a "Hyundai/Hanjin" train, for example. And those trains also carry a vast mix of other leased and other lines' boxes.
I feel the same way. When you really think about it, one 40' intermodal container last month was probably sitting in a container ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. A month before that, it was being loaded in a factory in Taiwan. A month before that, it was in a ship in the middle of the Indian Ocean. A couple months before that, it was riding on the chassis of a truck on an Italian highway. And a year before that, it was being loaded off of a CSX train in New Jersey.I model the modern era, and like to watch intermodal trains to find out which container lines I need represented on my trains. Also, if you learn more about thee shipping companies, you have a better idea of where they originate from and where they typically travel. For instance Evergreen is a Taiwanese company; K-Line is a Japanese company, Maersk originates from Denmark and is usually found all over Europe.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIs that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
BRAKIE Sheldon,If you're interest here's the shops PRR closed,The carpenter shop,the blacksmith shop,the tool and die shop,Spruce Street passenger locomotive roundhouse,downsize St.Clair roundhouse by 33%. In short if you didn't have 30 or more years seniority you lost your job. The Columbus shops was massive and could do the same heavy repair work as Altoona. As a kid it scared me walking by those massive empty buildings. I can still see those buildings in my mind's eye.
Sheldon,If you're interest here's the shops PRR closed,The carpenter shop,the blacksmith shop,the tool and die shop,Spruce Street passenger locomotive roundhouse,downsize St.Clair roundhouse by 33%. In short if you didn't have 30 or more years seniority you lost your job.
The Columbus shops was massive and could do the same heavy repair work as Altoona.
As a kid it scared me walking by those massive empty buildings. I can still see those buildings in my mind's eye.
Is that what this is really about? The loss of those and similar jobs? Diesels allowed more consolidation and centralazation of those tasks, rolling stock contruction was changing, less use of wood, yes, less passenger cars.
But other changes in the economy were still creating good jobs at that point. Every new wave of progress does this.
Any further discussion of this aspect of this topic is likely not approperate for this forum.....
BRAKIE richhotrain Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era. Actually a lot of the larger stations in the 50-60 era had track out of service because they was no longer needed. A lot of platforms was closed off as well..Even roundhouses for passenger locomotives was being downsized. PRR went from 8,000 employees in the Columbus shops to around 2500 by '51. A lot of the shop buildings stood vacant. So,one layout will fill a lot of history even in '54.
richhotrain Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
Actually a lot of the larger stations in the 50-60 era had track out of service because they was no longer needed. A lot of platforms was closed off as well..Even roundhouses for passenger locomotives was being downsized.
PRR went from 8,000 employees in the Columbus shops to around 2500 by '51. A lot of the shop buildings stood vacant.
So,one layout will fill a lot of history even in '54.
Very true, those shinny new fangled diesels needed way less care and feeding, and spend much less time in the shop and more out on the road. That meant less of them were needed to cover the same schedules.
Some steam shops were abandoned, while others were completely refurbished and refitted to service the diesels, while in other cases complete new shops were built for the diesels. Another example, you can focus on the empty building.....or you can focus on the remodeled and repurposed one, or the brand new one.
And there you have it again, the brand new diesel shop, the repurposed and remodeled shop, and the out of use abandoned building.....all existing at the same point in time. New...renovated...abandoned, the natural cycle of building use always in play at ANY point in history, in any place in the world.
To model the abandoned building and not the one in use would be disingenuous to the fact that we are modeling the working, functioning "railroad". Sure we should show some of the natural history, a steam loco out of service, changes in the use of buildings, etc.
But at a time like that when the railroads were taking delivery of new locos as fast as EMD and ALCO could build them, why would you focus on the negative, or the old? Not that I see the natural cycle of things like that as negative....it is progress, it is how it works.
And, our selectively compressed model layouts can only give a small "snap shot" of any of this.......what is most important? The steam locos on the dead line?
Not for me.......I model the shinny diesels and the steam that is still in service while we wait for more shinny diesels........and like the N&W or the WM, the ATLANTIC CENTRAL takes care of that steam because its performance is necessary to our high quality service......
And one more thought about passenger service. The railroads knew way back in 1920 that without the post office, passenger trains were a black hole for money. Why do you think doodlebugs were developed for branch lines way back then?
The two wars and the depression prolonged extensive service but hampered improvements in equipment or approaches to better service. The last efforts in the 50's were too little too late, no question. But they were in fact serious, and glamorous efforts none the less.
And the country still depended heavily on the trains to move the mail in the early 50's. No one thing killed the passenger train, cars/better highways, airlines both took their toll, but it was the complete loss of the mail contracts in the 60's that really brought passenger service completely to its knees.
richhotrainTaking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
I model every 5 years starting in 1945.
Why?
Well, I like steam: 1945 was quite a good year for steam where I'm modeling
I think container trains are fascinating: NOT 1945
Back in the day, I got into a tizzy when the GN went to Big Sky Blue. Outrageous and ugly, I said! Then they bought F45's. Then there was the BN merger. Outrageous and somethin', I said! Then I saw a whole buncha stuff painted in the BN scheme. Then there was BNSF. Outrageous and yukee, I said. Then I saw a set of dismals in the H2 scheme. My "horizons" kept expanding.
Point being is that I like/love many aspects of railroading, and don't care to choose.
Which results in kind of a problem: the layout
Now, one spot I am intent on modeling is Lyle, WA. 'Cause. It IS sort of a backwater. But it's MY backwater. It's changed a lot over the years: the station (which was painted in various schemes over the years) was wiped out by marauding grain hoppers in the '90's (as I recall). The last water tank was taken out at some time. In 2005, the foundation was still there. It's gone now.
Anyway, I'm faced with what to do about change over time.
The station will be removable. As in lift off the foundation. The real foundation was removed along with the station remnants, but I will be leaving a good part of my foundation. I suppose I could make several station models in different paint schemes.
Too, the water tank will probably lift off. And the foundation will remain.
It's an interesting challenge to (try) to make a time-convertible layout. Hope I'm up to it. I DO realize that I likely won't be able to pull it off for every detail.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people. Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do. But once again Larry, how we emulate 1954 should not be influenced by what we know about how things turned out later, we should model it as if we are in that moment and don't know how things will turn out. Why is this so hard to understand? Hindsight is alway 20/20, foresight not so much.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people. Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
Since we are emulating railroads should we not emulate railroad history as well? Many of us do.
But once again Larry, how we emulate 1954 should not be influenced by what we know about how things turned out later, we should model it as if we are in that moment and don't know how things will turn out. Why is this so hard to understand? Hindsight is alway 20/20, foresight not so much.
Taking it a step further, when we model a specific era, we are emulating railroad history. If you want to emulate railroad futurity at the same time, you probably need to construct a double deck layout, one deck modeling your chosen era, the other deck modeling the current era.
In my case, modeling Chicago's Dearborn Station in the mid-1950s, I would need a second deck showing an abandoned area of station tracks and a deserted train station in 1971, and a third deck showing Dearborn Park, a residential area of townhomes and condominiums, in the 1990s replacing the track work and freight houses when Dearborn Station was in its glory.
So some people were optimistic in 1954 and their hopes did not work out, we can still model those hopes.
You and George Sellios are most welcome to model from a pessimistic point of view, I prefer the opposite view both in modeling and in my actual day to day life.
One example, the railroads jumped into piggyback with both feet, it only paid off partly do to government short sightedness, resistence from SOME of the trucking industry, etc. But by 1954 they had jumped in, I model the jump, not the failings and struggles later with 40' trailers, stupid regulations, etc.
Again, feel free to model whatever depressing stuff you want.....
Still an optimist here,
ATLANTIC CENTRALI know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet. But,was in the making with the coming of TWA,PAN AM,United Air Lines, American Airways and as improve two lane roads started showing up there went a lot of freight..The trucking industry was proving they could transport freight faster then rail and they had a strong influence in a certain city on the East coast. The down hill slide of passenger trains did not happen overnight. The die was cast shortly after WWII.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
But,was in the making with the coming of TWA,PAN AM,United Air Lines, American Airways and as improve two lane roads started showing up there went a lot of freight..The trucking industry was proving they could transport freight faster then rail and they had a strong influence in a certain city on the East coast.
The down hill slide of passenger trains did not happen overnight. The die was cast shortly after WWII.
I know all that and I don't care, I build model trains to relax, have fun and get away from "input overload" from people.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
But I don't model the 60's, in my world it has not happened yet.........and it will never happen because I have no interest in mving my era forward.
If I ever did change modeling era, I would go back farther, like 1910, the era in my home was only 9 years old.........
The whole point of historical modeling is to suspend time and capture the past, it cannot be influenced by a future that has not happened yet.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou do realize there is a clear bias in everything you say against passenger trains and mainline operation?
Sheldon,I freely admit I would rather switch cars then run main line trains. The bread and butter of railroads is delivering the freight to its customers better known as switching.
As for passenger trains.. I'm under no delusion that they were at one time great trains but,in the 60s I saw the death knell of the passenger train and railroads begging to drop them since their passenger trains was losing millions if not billions to operate and maintain..
Trains Magazine of that era told the sad story of dying trains including many that was once proud flag ships of the railroads.. Trains frequently broke down enroute and could be hours late. I do not wish to model that.
The 50s was the beginning of the down hill slide of many once great railroads and the death knell was beginning to sound for passenger trains.
Again Trains Magazine told the sad story.Railfaning proved the stories to be all to true.
You rode behind the 475..I was in the cab of 444 when I was 8 years old.
rrinkerAbout the only exciting things that go through here are if one of the NS Heritage units is on the train, or when the East Penn Railway uses running rights with some older power they use.
How about Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern (http://www.rbmnrr.com/). Headquarters is Port Clinton, PA (the Appalacian Trail runs right through their yard). Well worth checking out their railroad. Not sure when is best time to railfan, but thats where I found Soo Line covered Hoppers (Cressona, PA).
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon. Sounds like a great way to kill a lazy summer Saturday.I would love to do that once. However.. To my mind its make believe only because I have fond memories of N&W M1 4-8-0 #444 switching cars at Kroger bakery. This required 3 hours to switch due to the number and location of car spots. Sadly around 1957/58 a GP9 replaced 444. I also recall the last of PRR steam in every day service. The last PRR 0-6-0 was used by the salvage company until '60 for moving loaded gons of cut up steam engines..She to would be scrapped on site.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, that said, here is how I railfan. The Strasburg Railroad is only 50 minutes from my house, and they run most of the year, including weekdays. So I can jump in the car, with a friend, or the wife, or alone, and buzz up there, watch some steam action, ride the train, pop into the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, go to the train shop, all in a nice afternoon.
Sounds like a great way to kill a lazy summer Saturday.I would love to do that once.
However..
To my mind its make believe only because I have fond memories of N&W M1 4-8-0 #444 switching cars at Kroger bakery. This required 3 hours to switch due to the number and location of car spots.
Sadly around 1957/58 a GP9 replaced 444.
I also recall the last of PRR steam in every day service. The last PRR 0-6-0 was used by the salvage company until '60 for moving loaded gons of cut up steam engines..She to would be scrapped on site.
You watched 444 do switching, I have rode behind her sister 475 many times.....
You like freight trains, I like freight and passenger trains.......
You do realize there is a clear bias in everything you say against passenger trains and mainline operation?
I may be fixed on only one era, but I like all aspects of railroading, including industrial switching.