orsonroy wrote: There's a lot of lumber being used in these discussions about simple shelf layouts. Shelves don't need to be this heavy, costly, or time-consuming to build.Why not try something more minimalist?This is the basic structure of my last layout, which was a 7x25 triple decker. Nothing more than the cheapest metal shelf brackets I could find, 1/4" Lauan plywood, and 2" foam.Sagging? What's that? The layout was up for over three years and nothing moved an inch. Foam is surprisingly strong for it's weight, and the combination of it and a minimal amount of wood support underneath kept it in position. True, you couldn't walk on the benchwork, but why would you want to?
There's a lot of lumber being used in these discussions about simple shelf layouts. Shelves don't need to be this heavy, costly, or time-consuming to build.
Why not try something more minimalist?
This is the basic structure of my last layout, which was a 7x25 triple decker. Nothing more than the cheapest metal shelf brackets I could find, 1/4" Lauan plywood, and 2" foam.
Sagging? What's that? The layout was up for over three years and nothing moved an inch. Foam is surprisingly strong for it's weight, and the combination of it and a minimal amount of wood support underneath kept it in position. True, you couldn't walk on the benchwork, but why would you want to?
Wow, Ray, I have found myself reading every post to this point and shaking my head. I am glad you jumped in, because I was tempted to just let these gentlemen do what kept them happy.
I used 5/8" and had it spaced 30" (WHAAAATTT?) and it didn't sag to any extent that I could see in the 15 months that I had it up. I had glued 1" Dow extruded foam atop the three sheets of ply that I used.
Gentlemen, I agree entirely with Ray. If you intend to use anything thicker than 1.5" foam, you can get by with nothing...that's right...nothing* under it except L-brackets or wooden joists every 18". We are talking 2 lb locomotives in HO, and four oz plastic structures...or wooden. Unless you intend to have your christening party on top of the layout, save yourselves time and money and go light.
*You should add something either on top or below to create a dual density interface for sound absorption. Foam, by itself, is very noisy. For example, if you are using EZ-Track or other snap variants, you will find it to be noisy. So, roadbed under your tracks, or luan, 1/4" MDF, ply, whatever under the foam...either/or, or both.
Just my suggestion. I hope whatever you do, that your experience is very positive.
In the one place where I did need "real" benchwork (it was over two feet wide and was to have storage shelves underneath) all I did was build a simple box frame out of 2x2s spaced 24" apart, and covered the frame with the same foam and plywood combination. This part of the layout COULD be walked on, and I did (I'm 6'2" and weigh 225). This simple, cheap and easy to build benchwork was more than enough to support my HO trains.
So instead of trying to engineer L-girders for a "simple" shelf layout, look at something simpler. This is a proven layout building technique: Bill Darnaby's Maumee Route layout features 10 scale miles of double deck benchwork, and has been up for over 10 years without any problems. Moreover, his benchwok is ONLY brackets and foam; he doesn't use any plywood under the foam, and it doesn't sag.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Considering only the structural issues, note that bookshelves/cases often use 3/4" thick shelving, often without any edging and sheves often span as much as 36", supporting books! High density particle board - more likely to lie flat than plywood - is usually the base material. Sealing the shelf with paint or a clear sealer helps control warping, but sag should not be a problem. Provide your brackets @ 16" o.c., secured to studs to be safe.
That being said, a front edge stiffener serves another purpose, as would the rear edge upright stiffener, as previously stated. One or both could be face-fastened for appearance purposes, if glued in addition to nailed or screwed.
Dante
I use a box frame of 1x2. My system is kind of unique--it's semi-modular, so it can be configured in more than just one way. To facilitate me shuffling components around, I built a shelf of 1x2 lumber, just an open frame held up by commercial shelf brackets at regular intervals (every 2 feet along a wall, but only every 6 feet along a wall where the only support points were 4x4 structural supports 6 feet apart.) The modules are designed to be removed and shuffled around, with a 1x2 box frame under 5/8" MDF. I can very easily scoot things around, add new modules in between existing ones, or reconfigure the layout just by undoing some C-clamps and unscrewing wires from terminal strips.
Although I must admit that I also built an upper shelving system to support lighting and provide above-layout storage, using only 1x2 along the front to add stiffness, screwed to commercial shelf brackets, and it didn't warp after a couple of years in an un-insulated garage. So it might work after all.
NevinW wrote:Do you put the frame all the way around the edge of the plywood with cross pieces every few feet to creat a box frame with the plywood screwed onto the top? The classic box frame? My idea is to put a 1x2 along the front edge to stiffen it but leave all the rest off. I might put a 1x2 along the short ends to add stiffness and to have an easy way to bolt the 2x8 sections together. But I was planning on laying the plywood right on the shelf supports with no cross pieces. - Nevin
The way you are describing your constuction of a 1x2 at the front edge only, may stop a bit of sag or allow you to staighten the bow that most ply has, but w/o any type of boxed frame I really don't think the plywood would be stable enough. Even using 3/4 cabinet grade ply, I feel the plywood will distort and sag over time.
A 1x3 boxed frame w/ josts at 16" centers(or match the wall studing) and using quality 1/2" birch or luan would be a very stable alternative.
The larger joists not only add strength, but allows more room to hide wiring and switch machines.
If you are laminating at least 1 1/2" of foam, you may be able to get away with a thinner ply 1/4 or 3/8".
If you ever need to cut a hollow door down, all you need to do to keep the framed integridy of the door is to rip the appropriate thickness stock and glue and clamp it in the open end. Some of the cardboard core will need to be chiseled back for clearance. I do this all the time when cutting a door down leaves insuficent stile at the bottom.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
3/4 inch plywood will still sag. A frame of 1x2 is sufficient to keep things stiff, but in that case you don't need 3/4 inch plywood--maybe 1/2 inch, or 1 or 2 inches of foam with a cheap & easy 1x2 frame. The frame also serves the purpose of hiding wiring (well, along with the fascia) and adding a bit of stiffness--more than an extra 1/4" of plywood will do.
That's what I do, anyhow--although I use 5/8" MDF and the layout is only a foot thick.
Hah, you pretty much just described the exact method I'll be using to build my shelfs. I found this site and this guy built it the same so I opted to do the same.
http://www.reganspace.com/Trains/bench%20work%20and%20backdrop.html
My only difference from you is I'm using standards at 16" centers on wall studs. I probably wouldn't recommended going any further without some support framing.
Shaun
My last layout was a true shelf with cheap hollow core doors attached domino style and held up by heavy duty metal shelf supports from Lowes. A layer of foam covered the doors. It worked great. The only problem is that the doors were only about <7 feet long and cutting them produces a much less strong board since there is only cardboard inside. I took down the layout this weekend and am keeping the shelf supports.
I have been thinking though, why not skip the hollow core doors and just use plywood. For my next layout why not use 3/4 inch plywood cut into 2X8 sections as shelves. Add a strip of 1x2 along the front to stiffen it and maybe along the edge. Attach the whole thing to the shelf supports on 32 inch centers. Attach the fascia to the 1x2. Use the metal flatplate connectors to fix the shelves together. Add track and start running trains. Why build a ladder frame for the shelves?
Thoughts? Is there any other suggestions for building a shelf railroad relatively quickly and easily? - Nevin