My last layout was a true shelf with cheap hollow core doors attached domino style and held up by heavy duty metal shelf supports from Lowes. A layer of foam covered the doors. It worked great. The only problem is that the doors were only about <7 feet long and cutting them produces a much less strong board since there is only cardboard inside. I took down the layout this weekend and am keeping the shelf supports.
I have been thinking though, why not skip the hollow core doors and just use plywood. For my next layout why not use 3/4 inch plywood cut into 2X8 sections as shelves. Add a strip of 1x2 along the front to stiffen it and maybe along the edge. Attach the whole thing to the shelf supports on 32 inch centers. Attach the fascia to the 1x2. Use the metal flatplate connectors to fix the shelves together. Add track and start running trains. Why build a ladder frame for the shelves?
Thoughts? Is there any other suggestions for building a shelf railroad relatively quickly and easily? - Nevin
Hah, you pretty much just described the exact method I'll be using to build my shelfs. I found this site and this guy built it the same so I opted to do the same.
http://www.reganspace.com/Trains/bench%20work%20and%20backdrop.html
My only difference from you is I'm using standards at 16" centers on wall studs. I probably wouldn't recommended going any further without some support framing.
Shaun
3/4 inch plywood will still sag. A frame of 1x2 is sufficient to keep things stiff, but in that case you don't need 3/4 inch plywood--maybe 1/2 inch, or 1 or 2 inches of foam with a cheap & easy 1x2 frame. The frame also serves the purpose of hiding wiring (well, along with the fascia) and adding a bit of stiffness--more than an extra 1/4" of plywood will do.
That's what I do, anyhow--although I use 5/8" MDF and the layout is only a foot thick.
NevinW wrote:Do you put the frame all the way around the edge of the plywood with cross pieces every few feet to creat a box frame with the plywood screwed onto the top? The classic box frame? My idea is to put a 1x2 along the front edge to stiffen it but leave all the rest off. I might put a 1x2 along the short ends to add stiffness and to have an easy way to bolt the 2x8 sections together. But I was planning on laying the plywood right on the shelf supports with no cross pieces. - Nevin
The way you are describing your constuction of a 1x2 at the front edge only, may stop a bit of sag or allow you to staighten the bow that most ply has, but w/o any type of boxed frame I really don't think the plywood would be stable enough. Even using 3/4 cabinet grade ply, I feel the plywood will distort and sag over time.
A 1x3 boxed frame w/ josts at 16" centers(or match the wall studing) and using quality 1/2" birch or luan would be a very stable alternative.
The larger joists not only add strength, but allows more room to hide wiring and switch machines.
If you are laminating at least 1 1/2" of foam, you may be able to get away with a thinner ply 1/4 or 3/8".
If you ever need to cut a hollow door down, all you need to do to keep the framed integridy of the door is to rip the appropriate thickness stock and glue and clamp it in the open end. Some of the cardboard core will need to be chiseled back for clearance. I do this all the time when cutting a door down leaves insuficent stile at the bottom.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I use a box frame of 1x2. My system is kind of unique--it's semi-modular, so it can be configured in more than just one way. To facilitate me shuffling components around, I built a shelf of 1x2 lumber, just an open frame held up by commercial shelf brackets at regular intervals (every 2 feet along a wall, but only every 6 feet along a wall where the only support points were 4x4 structural supports 6 feet apart.) The modules are designed to be removed and shuffled around, with a 1x2 box frame under 5/8" MDF. I can very easily scoot things around, add new modules in between existing ones, or reconfigure the layout just by undoing some C-clamps and unscrewing wires from terminal strips.
Although I must admit that I also built an upper shelving system to support lighting and provide above-layout storage, using only 1x2 along the front to add stiffness, screwed to commercial shelf brackets, and it didn't warp after a couple of years in an un-insulated garage. So it might work after all.
Considering only the structural issues, note that bookshelves/cases often use 3/4" thick shelving, often without any edging and sheves often span as much as 36", supporting books! High density particle board - more likely to lie flat than plywood - is usually the base material. Sealing the shelf with paint or a clear sealer helps control warping, but sag should not be a problem. Provide your brackets @ 16" o.c., secured to studs to be safe.
That being said, a front edge stiffener serves another purpose, as would the rear edge upright stiffener, as previously stated. One or both could be face-fastened for appearance purposes, if glued in addition to nailed or screwed.
Dante
There's a lot of lumber being used in these discussions about simple shelf layouts. Shelves don't need to be this heavy, costly, or time-consuming to build.
Why not try something more minimalist?
This is the basic structure of my last layout, which was a 7x25 triple decker. Nothing more than the cheapest metal shelf brackets I could find, 1/4" Lauan plywood, and 2" foam.
Sagging? What's that? The layout was up for over three years and nothing moved an inch. Foam is surprisingly strong for it's weight, and the combination of it and a minimal amount of wood support underneath kept it in position. True, you couldn't walk on the benchwork, but why would you want to?
In the one place where I did need "real" benchwork (it was over two feet wide and was to have storage shelves underneath) all I did was build a simple box frame out of 2x2s spaced 24" apart, and covered the frame with the same foam and plywood combination. This part of the layout COULD be walked on, and I did (I'm 6'2" and weigh 225). This simple, cheap and easy to build benchwork was more than enough to support my HO trains.
So instead of trying to engineer L-girders for a "simple" shelf layout, look at something simpler. This is a proven layout building technique: Bill Darnaby's Maumee Route layout features 10 scale miles of double deck benchwork, and has been up for over 10 years without any problems. Moreover, his benchwok is ONLY brackets and foam; he doesn't use any plywood under the foam, and it doesn't sag.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
orsonroy wrote: There's a lot of lumber being used in these discussions about simple shelf layouts. Shelves don't need to be this heavy, costly, or time-consuming to build.Why not try something more minimalist?This is the basic structure of my last layout, which was a 7x25 triple decker. Nothing more than the cheapest metal shelf brackets I could find, 1/4" Lauan plywood, and 2" foam.Sagging? What's that? The layout was up for over three years and nothing moved an inch. Foam is surprisingly strong for it's weight, and the combination of it and a minimal amount of wood support underneath kept it in position. True, you couldn't walk on the benchwork, but why would you want to?
Wow, Ray, I have found myself reading every post to this point and shaking my head. I am glad you jumped in, because I was tempted to just let these gentlemen do what kept them happy.
I used 5/8" and had it spaced 30" (WHAAAATTT?) and it didn't sag to any extent that I could see in the 15 months that I had it up. I had glued 1" Dow extruded foam atop the three sheets of ply that I used.
Gentlemen, I agree entirely with Ray. If you intend to use anything thicker than 1.5" foam, you can get by with nothing...that's right...nothing* under it except L-brackets or wooden joists every 18". We are talking 2 lb locomotives in HO, and four oz plastic structures...or wooden. Unless you intend to have your christening party on top of the layout, save yourselves time and money and go light.
*You should add something either on top or below to create a dual density interface for sound absorption. Foam, by itself, is very noisy. For example, if you are using EZ-Track or other snap variants, you will find it to be noisy. So, roadbed under your tracks, or luan, 1/4" MDF, ply, whatever under the foam...either/or, or both.
Just my suggestion. I hope whatever you do, that your experience is very positive.
Acrylic latex caulking (El Cheapo brand is great for this!) in the seams. To keep the edge of the foam pristine where you will be leaning against it, add a front wooden sheathing, some moulding would probably work. That wooden framing will also help to keep things together.
So, you frame around the periphery of the foam with thin wood to add both a finished look and to protect it. It's added effect is to keep the sheets compressed together and to keep them from lifting at the joints.
NevinW wrote:For those people who have just used the 2 inch foam laid on the shelf brackets, how do you connect the foam sections together. I used flat metal connectors and screwed them to the ends of the doors butted together. Waht do you use to hold the 2" foam sections together. - Nevin
Bill Darnaby uses masonite splice plates Liquid Nailed to the underside of the joint. It seems to be working very well.
I'm with Selector on the foam noise suppression issue (the ONLY downside to building a foam-based layout) so I went with a few techniques to minimize the effect. First and most importantly, I added the 1/4" Lauan under the foam. Next, I used "soft" glues whenever possible. Instead of using wood glue that dries hard, I use caulk (Silicone actually works the best, but latex is more nose-friendly). Caulk's rubbery when dry, so it acts as a shock absorber, dampening sound transferrance.
Finally, one of the biggest things I did to minimize sound transfer to the foam was to start running sound-equipped engines. I've found that I run at more realistic speeds with sound-equipped steam (30 instead of 60), and the slower speeds mean less rail joint hammering translating into drumbeats through the foam.
I built my around the walls shelf layout utilizing the two-rail white wall brackets & 24" white shelf brackets mounted to each stud. One shelf bracket for the layout one bracket for the layout roof per vertical rail. The top 1" foam shelf has the valance and lights. The layout itself is 1" 2'x8' sections glued together to form 2" or 3" thick sheets. They sit on the 24" shelf brackets on each stud and do not sag at all. Been up over two years. I have one section of wall where I have to span across the two sliding closet doors and I plan on using 1" aluminum L-bracket glued along the front and back of the foam so there will be no sag. I do not believe that two L bars are going to sag at all, at least I hope not, because I would really like to run this all the way around for occasional continuous running for visitors etc.
To glue 2'x8' sections together I use clear silicone. My pieces are not right angle joints because not all the walls meet in a square corner. I have a 4 foot wall that connects to the other two walls at a 45 degree angle. So that portion of foam is cut weird like an hourglass shape so the two big shelf sections remain rectangular. Nice clean installation. I'm still deciding whether to burying the wiring in the foam so none shows or go out through the bottom and running it to the front buss wires hidden behind the styrene face. The valances pieces are .40 & .60 styrene sections glued to the 1" edge of the foam with double sided permanent foam tape. I figured if it ever started coming loose I would clear silicone the top edge of it to the foam. I put the roof foam on this layout to allow me to curtain shut the layout to keep out dust. These I have not hung up yet but I plan to glue 1x2 along the top front edge of the roof foam, painted to match the valance, with small straight nails every 6-8" apart. The curtains will have button holes in the top hem at the same spacing so these curtains can be hung or removed quickly.
I hope these ideas I have used help solve any problems you might have or give you some more ideas to consider.
Mike P, ABQ, NM
There have been several threads about shelf layouts recently. I found this by searching and thought it was very useful to me. I intent to follow the recommendations of orsonroy and selector with my construction. I thought by replying, I will bump it toward the top of the heap for other people to see.
Tim Fahey
Musconetcong Branch of the Lehigh Valley RR
I used a method described by Lance Mindheim that he currently is using on his "Voodoo & Palmetto" shelf layout. It is the use of 18" wide hollow core bifold doors and "L" brackets lagged bolted into studding. It has 3/4" thick foamboard on top. Each set of bifolds yield 158" of shelving. I have increased the width on some sections by adding 1 x 2" pine to the edge. Door sections are joined together with 1 X 4" pine I also used 4" pine base board as the fasica. There is a 1/4" lip that extends above the foam as an scenic edge. After initially using hardboard as a fasica, I found that the pine base is neater in appearance. There is more than a sufficient amount of room to hide both 14g bus wire as well as 18g feeder wiring, since it is now stapled to the under side of the door.
http://www.lancemindheim.com/progress_photos.htm
http://www.lancemindheim.com/wiring.htm
http://www.lancemindheim.com/2008_archives.htm
Larry
camaroI used a method described by Lance Mindheim that he currently is using on his "Voodoo & Palmetto" shelf layout. It is the use of 18" wide hollow core bifold doors and "L" brackets lagged bolted into studding. It has 3/4" thick foamboard on top. Each set of bifolds yield 158" of shelving. I have increased the width on some sections by adding 1 x 2" pine to the edge. Door sections are joined together with 1 X 4" pine I also used 4" pine base board as the fasica. There is a 1/4" lip that extends above the foam as an scenic edge. After initially using hardboard as a fasica, I found that the pine base is neater in appearance. There is more than a sufficient amount of room to hide both 14g bus wire as well as 18g feeder wiring, since it is now stapled to the under side of the door. Larry
Great looking buildings. Is that HO and do you have more pics of your layout? I'd like to see them.
Thanks....
My layout is HO and in the beginning stages. It is a version of Lance Mindheims prototypical "East Rail".warehouse district in Miami. I have chose to concentrate on one section of East Rail that is also basically warehousing along with a second spur that services a propane dealer and a Sentry Corporation that receives tank cars of sodium hypochlorite for formulating swimming pool chemicals. At the far end of my layout and the actual end of the spur is Archive Americas and Seaboard Warehousing that basically lease storage. These two warehouses are tied together by a covered breezeway that allow hilo traffic between buildings. In the foreground are various buildings that no longer receive rail traffic, but are necessary for the scene. The pastel green building is Colmar Storage that warehouses bulk coffee beans. The longest section of my layout will only serve two customers. I have included loading dock doors on the backside of structures to enhance photographs when shooting down the length of the rail spur. I had several Peco turnouts and flex track and used them to get an idea of track placement. I am presently using ME code 70 for the spur line. I am painting this at workshop and will then add it to the layout. All the structures still need wearing and additional details added.
camaro My layout is HO and in the beginning stages. It is a version of Lance Mindheims prototypical "East Rail".warehouse district in Miami. I have chose to concentrate on one section of East Rail that is also basically warehousing along with a second spur that services a propane dealer and a Sentry Corporation that receives tank cars of sodium hypochlorite for formulating swimming pool chemicals. At the far end of my layout and the actual end of the spur is Archive Americas and Seaboard Warehousing that basically lease storage. These two warehouses are tied together by a covered breezeway that allow hilo traffic between buildings. In the foreground are various buildings that no longer receive rail traffic, but are necessary for the scene. The pastel green building is Colmar Storage that warehouses bulk coffee beans. The longest section of my layout will only serve two customers. I have included loading dock doors on the backside of structures to enhance photographs when shooting down the length of the rail spur. I had several Peco turnouts and flex track and used them to get an idea of track placement. I am presently using ME code 70 for the spur line. I am painting this at workshop and will then add it to the layout. All the structures still need wearing and additional details added.
That is going to be one nice looking scene when you are done. Will your layout eventually be constructed around the room so you can let the trains run or is it a switching layout only? BTW I had the same cheap stereo cabinet at one time
My layout's design is based on Driline's. I saw his photos and was impressed at how he worked with the space he has. I especially liked the shot of his desk which is almost my same exact scenario!
Since I didn't have $10,000 to turn my attic storage area into a decent layout room, I had to do the next best thing, which was consider using my back room, without sacrificing my worktable and computer desk.
Currently the shelf layout construction sits 56" above the floor (2 feet above my computer and book shelves). This will give me a nice, "close-to-ground-level" view of the trains and scenery instead of the typical "helicoptor view" that most modelers have when sitting at their layouts. I've been slowly building it for the past year, but expect to make some very good progress this summer.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
DrilineThat is going to be one nice looking scene when you are done. Will your layout eventually be constructed around the room so you can let the trains run or is it a switching layout only? BTW I had the same cheap stereo cabinet at one time
Driline,
It's suppose to be a prototypical switching layout. As a result, there won't be any continous running. Construction seems to slow down this time a of year with other outside projects taking priority. I have another section of bi-fold door to hang to the left side of the Colmar building, but that will probably not happen until Fall. The stereo has given way to the storage of various project structures. I think any shelf style railroad is the way to go when room is at a premium. I was initially going to use a similar framed setup, but this seemed to be the speedier way to go. I can't screw up an "L" bracket bolted to a side wall.
AntonioFP45 My layout's design is based on Driline's. I saw his photos and was impressed at how he worked with the space he has. I especially liked the shot of his desk which is almost my same exact scenario!
Thanks AntonioFP45 I didn't realize that. I'd like to see some pics of your layout.
Jetrock3/4 inch plywood will still sag. A frame of 1x2 is sufficient to keep things stiff, but in that case you don't need 3/4 inch plywood--maybe 1/2 inch, or 1 or 2 inches of foam with a cheap & easy 1x2 frame. The frame also serves the purpose of hiding wiring (well, along with the fascia) and adding a bit of stiffness--more than an extra 1/4" of plywood will do.
I did something like this. First you want as many brackets as you can find studs. Wal Mart had an electronic stud finder for $17 that actually can find a stud. Use foamboard as sub roadbed, and scenery base. Lay the track on top of road bed on top of foamboard. Secure roadbed to foam board with latex caulk. Set the foam board into "dominos". Each domino has a plywood bottom and a 1 by 4 frame clear around all four sides. The plywood bottom can be as thin as 1/4 inch although I used 3/8". 3/4 inch is overkill IMHO. The plywood bottom stiffens the frame and accepts screws to hold under table switch machines, cable clamps, power strips, Tortoise power supplies and all that other stuff that wants to fasten to the bottom of the layout. Foamboard is great stuff but it won't hold fasteners. With a plywood bottom to hold the fasteners, it doesn't matter that the foamboard is soft. The outside frame forms the layout fascia. Backed by the plywood, people can lean on it and not crush in the edge of the foamboard. You can screw switch machine controls, block toggle switches, structure lighting controls, track plans, what ever to the front frame.
The foam board cuts well with ordinary power tools. I used a radial arm saw to cut 3/4 by 3/4 inch rabbets into the edge of the foamboard so it settled into the dominos and lapped over the top of the frame.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I use 1x2 frames covered with 2 layers of foam on shelf brackets. My turnouts are hand thrown so no need for any plywood. Hope some of this helps.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
My plan is to use basic open grid made from 1x2's, screwed right through the frame and drywall and into the wall studs, with extruded foam on top. I'm skipping the whole plywood stage which now means I have a pair of qaurter sheet 1/2" laying around. Will be running ME turn outs, all manual either at the turnout itself or with something like a Blue Point switch control mounted to the fascia so the whole plywood underbelly part could be kept out. I'm trying to do it light as possible so I won't have to have a support bracket every 32 inches or so, after all I do only rent the place. I'm thinking about this or a lattice type construction that I usually see people build when they use wood spline or homasote subroad bed.
Skip the plywood completely.
Use 2 layers of 1" foam in a tray built out of 1x4s. Light weight, easy to work with.
I hope that Im not out of order. Terry I like your sky art very much. How did you do it?
saronaterry I use 1x2 frames covered with 2 layers of foam on shelf brackets. My turnouts are hand thrown so no need for any plywood. Hope some of this helps. Terry
Thanks, DJ.This was my first stab at doing clouds. I started with a sky blue at the top and a lighter blue at the bottom and kinda blended it together about a foot or so up.HO scale. It looked like this at first:
I didn't do a very good job on the blending, so I used a rattle can of white to apply clouds.I just started spraying small spots and gradually made them higher and longer. The first few I stayed about 8-10" away to get a wispy look then a little closer to fill them in. My aim was to hide the "line" It's actually very easy to do and if you don't like the outcome just paint over and try again.