There's also a type of screw out there with whats called a "pancake" head. It has a flatter profile.
Look on line, and at your hardware store, check out the Hilmann Fastener drawers, just about all hardware stores have them. Stacks of plastic cases with drawers.
Mike.
My You Tube
Wouldn't the coupler pin hit the screwhead? Nevermind, just make sure they sit below the rail.
- Douglas
NOTE added:I went away from this screw-washer arrangement to just a #6 screw with a 'truss head',...shown later in discussion
Screw it Down, No Glue
Why not just use short flat head screws? I have seen several helices where the track was simply screwed down every few inches. The screws are installed between the ties as opposed to through a tie so in effect they are holding down two ties. The screw heads apparently don't cause any problems even though they stick up above the ties. Your equipment will have to be properly tuned of course, with no low hanging coupler pins or snow plows, but you are going to do that anyhow to make sure that they clear turnout frogs etc. I'm assuming that you haven't assembled the helix roadbed yet and that you will have enough clearance to install the screws as you build the helix. Dave
Why not just use short flat head screws? I have seen several helices where the track was simply screwed down every few inches. The screws are installed between the ties as opposed to through a tie so in effect they are holding down two ties. The screw heads apparently don't cause any problems even though they stick up above the ties. Your equipment will have to be properly tuned of course, with no low hanging coupler pins or snow plows, but you are going to do that anyhow to make sure that they clear turnout frogs etc.
I'm assuming that you haven't assembled the helix roadbed yet and that you will have enough clearance to install the screws as you build the helix. Dave
If you just want to hold the curve in alignment till the glue sets you could use larger screws with washers and drive them between the ties letting the washers clamp the ties in place. I've also seen folks use this method in helix without glue and just leave the screws and washers in place....DaveB
There have been two such suggestions from 2 forums. I am really liking the idea. I went to my local ACE hardware store the other day and found these items,..
Here are several photos with them installed in an experiment,.
As you can see the washer fits very nicely in between the tie plates for 2 ties, giving a nice broad support. The screw hold is between the ties instead of thru that small existing hole in the Atlas track, allowing for a bigger screw than those very small number #4,....and it means the spacing/location of these tie down screws is totally optional, not restricted to the atlas holes.
I also like the idea that the hole in the washer is a bit larger than the screw. That could allow for some movement/readjustments in the future for any expansion/contraction. (BTW I don't think there are real problems with track expansion in curved helix tracks of large diameter,...as MarkP noted, “The rails maintain the curve through the joint by flexing to the minimum strain energy state , I learned that particular phrase in engineering school”.
The screws also act very well with my masonite hardboard roadbed in the helix. No searching for the 'correct glue', and all the mess that entails getting it down under the track,...and not being able to re-adjust things if that becomes an issue.
I believe I can get away with as little as 3 of these screw attachments per segment of track,...maybe 4. And I might be able to put them right at the joints in the rails.
I'm sold on this idea.
...And if that weren't enough convincing, I can utilize this same attachment method in my metal bridges to the helix. Here is a sample where I attached my track and rerailer to the bridge that will feed my staging tracks,..
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
railandsail Guide Plate The rest of the track won't shift much once the ends are fixed in place. One approach: lay the track with your usual glue (a lot of people use caulk), but clamp a straight piece of wood to the roadbed, against and tangent to the outside ties to keep the flex from straightening; this will help align the next flex when you solder. Then add a squirt of superglue or superglue gel between ties at each rail end to glue the ends to the roadbed. Wait for it to dry or use accelerant and you should be good to go. I like this idea. As a test, I clamped an old piece of 3/4 ply across the double tracks and it worked very well. I'm now working on an idea to place a couple of thin 'guides' on the bottom of this flat piece of wood that will hold the 2 tracks at a set distance apart, and also in a center position on the 6 inch subroadbed they are being glued to.
Guide Plate
The rest of the track won't shift much once the ends are fixed in place. One approach: lay the track with your usual glue (a lot of people use caulk), but clamp a straight piece of wood to the roadbed, against and tangent to the outside ties to keep the flex from straightening; this will help align the next flex when you solder. Then add a squirt of superglue or superglue gel between ties at each rail end to glue the ends to the roadbed. Wait for it to dry or use accelerant and you should be good to go.
I like this idea.
As a test, I clamped an old piece of 3/4 ply across the double tracks and it worked very well. I'm now working on an idea to place a couple of thin 'guides' on the bottom of this flat piece of wood that will hold the 2 tracks at a set distance apart, and also in a center position on the 6 inch subroadbed they are being glued to.
Guide Plate Fixture
I have been playing with these various ideas of how to lay this Atlas flex track (that ALWAYS wants to go straight!) into the curves of my helix, get its jointers soldered without kinks, get the feeders attached, get the proper separation between the dual tracks, AND get it glued down all at one time. Plus I am trying to attach the track to masonite HARDBOARD roadbed that does NOT accept nails, tacks, nor pushpins to help hold things in place while doing some of the other operations, and to hold the track down while the glue dries.
My initial thought was to make some helper guide pieces that could be clamped onto the helix roadbed,... to both position the dual tracks, and hold then down while the glue dries. The mock-up of that guide piece might look like this,...a piece of 1-2” wide piece of wood about 5/8-3/4” thick, 6” long,.. the width of my helix roadbed (the grey piece is a spare piece of my 6” wide painted masonite roadbed, and the guide piece is that yet to be cut piece of wood laying across the tracks)
Mounted on the bottom of that guide piece you will see two little track guide rectangles that fit inside the rails of both tracks,...keeping the dual tracks at a set center-to-center distance, and keeping them centered on the roadbed. In this particular case those little guide pieces are just laminate flooring glued to the bottom of the wood guide piece. I also think I could segment up a piece of one of those alum Ribbonrail pieces to make the little rectangle pieces,...(lets see, how about 3/4” length pieces cut from 5” long ribbonrail would net 6 pieces)...
I figure 3, maybe 4 of these 'guides' clamped at interval along the 3 foot length of track should be plenty to maintain a nice even curve.
Those guides should also provide enough clamping pressure doing gluing. But just in case there is a desire for be more,... simply provide some extra weights between the guide fixtures.
I'm thinking you could lay at least two 3 foot sections in there with all the corresponding guide fixtures (6-8), then unclamp all the middle guides leaving just the end ones in place, spread on the glue under the tracks, and reinstall those clamps. Or maybe just develop a sequence working around the circle guide after guide.
Soldering the feeders will be done afterwards, utilizing my new resistance soldering unit,...with the tweezer attachment,....great item for this. Perhaps borrow one if you don't have one.
mbinsewi railandsail What's Moosehead? It's a Canadian beer. Adds just the right amount of weight to the tracks. Of course, the beer still needs to be in the can for it to work properly, and after all caulk has cured, it's best served in a frozen mug, to celebrate the track gangs accomplishments. But then, If you have more track to weigh down, you need to get more Moosehead, the the cycle continues. Mike.
railandsail What's Moosehead?
It's a Canadian beer. Adds just the right amount of weight to the tracks. Of course, the beer still needs to be in the can for it to work properly, and after all caulk has cured, it's best served in a frozen mug, to celebrate the track gangs accomplishments.
But then, If you have more track to weigh down, you need to get more Moosehead, the the cycle continues.
Big smile this morning.
I used Powerhead Wood Screws to hold down Peco Code 100 track in my helix. The head is thinner than washers (about 1/16”) and they are self tapping, worked great! Just search for the name as above.
Anyone have a spare Ribbonrail or similar alum track device in 29" and/or 32",...or even anything in between? I might be able to cut up a 5-6" long one to make my 8 'devices'.
When I'm caulking down my flex track, I use pushpins. However thats going into caulk and then pink foam, so that won't work for you.
Is it possible to push a thumbtack into the masonite? You could drill a small pilot hole if necessary, but it seems like that would be a pain. The thumbtacks are just to hold it while it glues, though there'd be no reason to remove them.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I use the product above, or it's equal called "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk. There are other adheasive caulks, they will all work, but these two products have the best adheasion vs consistancy for this application. They spread easily and hold well. I use them every day in my work restoring and renovating houses. I would never use "regular" ALEX painters caulk, it is NOT an adheasive...... But that's just me. Sheldon
I use the product above, or it's equal called "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk.
There are other adheasive caulks, they will all work, but these two products have the best adheasion vs consistancy for this application.
They spread easily and hold well.
I use them every day in my work restoring and renovating houses.
I would never use "regular" ALEX painters caulk, it is NOT an adheasive......
But that's just me.
Sheldon
I have a contractor friend here in town that also highly rates this Polyseamseal. I ran a few little test with some and was not so impressed. But I am now thinking that the tube I had was too old. It made me go back to there polyurethane product,...thats probably too strong of an adhesive. Perhaps I'll get another tube of the polyseamseal.
There was another product I used to glue my 2 layers of masonite together for the roadbed of my helix. It was Titebond ll,...also recommended by my contractor friend who used it on countertops, including corian ones. It seems to have done an excellent job here, and when I experiented with gluing Atlas track to the masonite it appeared to do a very good job at that. It appeared to make a very good bond to the masonite, but when I finally pried it up with a scraper I don't think the track ties themselves were glued to the masonite. But it was still a bond strong enough to result in a considerable lifting of the skin layer of the masonite rather than the separation of the track.
I was also surprised at the PVC cements,..
doctorwayneI don't know if they'll be much help with your project, Dave, but there are more photos of the construction HERE.
Hi Wayne,
The additional pictures and explanations will be very helpful.
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
larak DAP vinyl ADHESIVE caulk worked well for me on the entire layout. Even the helix. I think they call it DAP Phenoseal now. https://smile.amazon.com/00005-Phenoseal-White-Vinyl-Adhesive/dp/B000H5OX4M/ref=sr_1_7
DAP vinyl ADHESIVE caulk worked well for me on the entire layout. Even the helix.
I think they call it DAP Phenoseal now. https://smile.amazon.com/00005-Phenoseal-White-Vinyl-Adhesive/dp/B000H5OX4M/ref=sr_1_7
Well here I go with another of my strong opinions.
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
I don't know if they'll be much help with your project, Dave, but there are more photos of the construction HERE.
Wayne
doctorwayneThanks for your kind words, Dave....much nicer than some of the ones out of my lips during construction.
Ah, but my task will be much easier now that I have a picture to work from thanks to you! Besides, if I do end up cursing a bit I will know that I am quoting The Master!
Thanks for your kind words, Dave....much nicer than some of the ones out of my lips during construction.
Wayne,
That roundhouse roof structure is amazing, and very inspiring. I'm building a roundhouse for the club right now and I want the roof to be removable. Your structure looks so much better than just having the roof panels themselves lift off. Wow!
Thanks for the idea!
Cheers!!
railandsail BATMAN Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best. What's Moosehead?
BATMAN Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best.
Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best.
What's Moosehead?
It's Canadian for beer, eh?
Last two layouts I just used plain latex caulk with Atlas track, and just used some push pins to hold it on curves, no Beer Train.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
railandsailWhat's Moosehead?
Test, test, test. Every section that goes down, and every joint. Use big fussy steam engines.
Power the track and pull trains as soon as you can.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
GraniteRailroader Selector, whatever happened to him?
Selector, whatever happened to him?
Dunno, but I wish I knew. He was a retired navy steam fitter or something like that, maybe engineroom operator. Chuck was very active for quite a few years here. I think his last post was in 2017. While I'm here, Iron Goat, Bob Hollowel, has also slipped his last. Lost his wife Martha the previous year.
Back to our OP's topic....
railandsail....I'm surprised you could find an adhesive that would work on that resin kit?
I originally thought that I could put the roundhouse together with contact cement, but the relatively small contact areas and some warpage of the parts lead me to opt for the screws. I think that the only reason it worked for the added-on cornice was the shape (and extra gluing surfaces) provided by the sheet styrene used for alignment. The structure was handled probably more than any kit I've ever built, with it standing on edge (any side) on the workbench or floor, or even on my lap, just trying to create the truss system for the removeable roof...
It wasn't one of my more enjoyable projects, but I finally got it finished and operable.
As for the gelled contact cement, I first used it to veneer kitchen cabinets, and it's still performing, as advertised, after more than 30 years. It's main drawback for modelling projects is that, as far as I'm aware, it comes only in quart or gallon cans. The shelf-life is pretty good if you keep it closed when not in use, but it does, over time, lose its solvents to evapouration, and adding more supposedly breaks-down the gell, making it stringy like regular contact cement.
As I'm laying track around a curve, I use rail joiners AND solder the joints between track sections, before I curve the the last few inches of the section laid and the next one going in. This makes a solid section that curves naturally (at least for the "spring-back" type of flextrack).
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
doctorwayne railandsail ...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time. After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
railandsail ...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time.
After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
doctorwayneI'm guessing that cork isn't used on your helix, due to clearance issues, so it would be one simple operation to install the track. You could do a centreline, but I think that an outer-end-of-the-ties line would be easier to follow.
I was thinking of some like that,...perhaps another piece of masonite or just thin plywood circular arch that the outer track ties would be pushed up against.
doctorwayne
I'm surprised you could find an adhesive that would work on that resin kit?
selector I built a substantial helix last time around. It only had one-and-a-bit turns, but it was nearly six feet in diameter (I had the space). Chuck had suggested that, on curves, one should use a needle file or a small flat file and slightly bevel both the top bearing surface of the rail head at the very tip where it was trimmed, but also the inner flange face. This reduces the chances of a flange picking the sharp top or inner edges of the rails and lifting off, thus forcing you to hope to keep the train in one piece and have it limp out of the hidden trackage, or to crawl under there and fix what needed fixing. I have done this for every rail joint, no matter where it is on the layout. It only takes an extra 30 seconds per pair of joiners.
I built a substantial helix last time around. It only had one-and-a-bit turns, but it was nearly six feet in diameter (I had the space). Chuck had suggested that, on curves, one should use a needle file or a small flat file and slightly bevel both the top bearing surface of the rail head at the very tip where it was trimmed, but also the inner flange face. This reduces the chances of a flange picking the sharp top or inner edges of the rails and lifting off, thus forcing you to hope to keep the train in one piece and have it limp out of the hidden trackage, or to crawl under there and fix what needed fixing. I have done this for every rail joint, no matter where it is on the layout. It only takes an extra 30 seconds per pair of joiners.
Sounds like a good idea, and since the track laying in the helix all has to be done in stages, there is time for that.
selector I also used the clear-drying DAP Alex Plus with silicone. It held very well. But, at the joints, on the outside of the outer rail joint, I would place a couple of the small wooden screws with the slightly domed head, flat on the top. This was cheap insurance against creeping rail joints held only by a thin skiff of latex caulk. In truth, I placed many of those joints across natural ends of the cookie-cutter roadbed inside the helix, so the screws were kinda important to keep everything lined up when I didn't want to use joiners across the gaps. Can't remember why just now.
I also used the clear-drying DAP Alex Plus with silicone. It held very well. But, at the joints, on the outside of the outer rail joint, I would place a couple of the small wooden screws with the slightly domed head, flat on the top. This was cheap insurance against creeping rail joints held only by a thin skiff of latex caulk. In truth, I placed many of those joints across natural ends of the cookie-cutter roadbed inside the helix, so the screws were kinda important to keep everything lined up when I didn't want to use joiners across the gaps. Can't remember why just now.
I'm going to use rail joiners in the helix, probably staggered. The screw idea is not a bad one, I'll keep it in mind as I start the process.
selectorBut, the bottom line is to make darned good 'n sure the roadbed is solid, that the tracks are well secured, and that the joints won't give your rolling stock fits...ever. Keeping good separation if the mains in the helix will be twinned, that should be about all you have to worry about. Well, that and planned access for...you know....
railandsail...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time.
If you're speaking of contact cement, yes, the bond is instant. However, much of the track on the upper level of my layout is Central Valley tie strips on cork roadbed, with Micro Engineering rail (usually in 12' soldered-together lengths). After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
After the cork was all in place, the tie strips were done in the same manner - they have projections every few ties to denote the centreline, and these were simply aligned with the line in the centre of the cork as the waxed paper was withdrawn.
While some CV tie strips call for deforming plastic projections on the ties to keep the rails in place, I again used contact cement and the waxed paper...
I'm guessing that cork isn't used on your helix, due to clearance issues, so it would be one simple operation to install the track. You could do a centreline, but I think that an outer-end-of-the-ties line would be easier to follow.
While I didn't take any photos of that track laying process, I did take some during construction of a Korber roundhouse.The Korber kit (from over 30 years ago - I'm a slow worker) is made-up of resin castings, and I could find nothing that would reliably bond the pieces together, especially during handling. I finally said "screw it" and then did...
...even the floor...
Because I had shortened four of the stalls (and the fifth one, even moreso), I ended-up with a rear wall too short to look proper, and not short enough to allow me to add under-eave transom windows. I decided to add a "stone" cornice to the top of the rear wall, and built one using strip styrene. Here's the built-up cornice, painted and with strips of .020" sheet styrene added to its inside face - they'll be slid down the inside of the rear wall as an alignment aid....
With the bottom of the cornice and the top of the wall coated with contact cement, the waxed paper (same sheets as used for the track - nothing sticks to them, so they're re-useable in this service) was put in place...
With the assembled cornice atop the wall and the sheet styrene keeping it from slipping out of place, the waxed paper was withdrawn.....
...of course, once the soffit, fascia, and eavestrough was added, the cornice became invisible...
Painting-on the contact cement can be somewhat messy, but once it's dry-to-the-touch, nothing except something else also coated with contact cement will stick to it, and I'm guessing that the helix isn't going to be too visible to the visiting public, so no worries regarding the niceties of esthetics.
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
The cans do work on curves, but you can use lengths of 1X2, 1X4, and 2X4 scrap lumber across the rails and stack soda tins on the wood. Or driver batteries, driver tip carriers, metal files, cans of paint, pots of spackle, bags of nails....just ask, I've used 'em.
We used to have a gentleman here who went by the name tomikawaTT. He was really Chuck Beckmann from Vegas, or near there. Chuck offered a tip which I immediately began to follow, and it has served me well.
But, the bottom line is to make darned good 'n sure the roadbed is solid, that the tracks are well secured, and that the joints won't give your rolling stock fits...ever. Keeping good separation if the mains in the helix will be twinned, that should be about all you have to worry about. Well, that and planned access for...you know....