I'm finally ready to lay some track in my helix structure, ....Atlas CODE 100 flex track. Looking for a few hints/suggestions.
I'll be attaching the Atlas track to my reinforced and painted/weather-proofed masonite roadbed. It will be a double radius installation of 32" & 29".
Naturally I will be starting at the lowest level, and working my way upward so as to have the best/clear access to the tracks. Probably be able to do a full half circle at a each shot.
I'm still debating with myself on what adhesive I will use, and how it might be applied. What do i mean by this? There are any number of adhesives that can glue the track to the masonite, but some are instant contact, and some take longer to dry.
Those that take longer to dry allow one to readjust the track to get that ideal circular shape, but then you must secure them in multiple locations, and for a considerable time to allow for a cure,...and these are circular flex track that wants to return to a 'relaxed straight condition'. I have considered using hot melt glue to tack the track down into its basic shape, then apply some sort of 'flowing adhesive' to finish the job? Remember the masonite hardboard will not accept 'tacks/nails'.
I might be able to weight the track into its position with the longer term adhesive, but I get a slight uneasiness about it maintaining its ideal circular shape with no 'temporary tacking'
The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time.
hints & suggestions entertained
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
All of what you mention above is why I like good old latex caulk, although, I've never built a helix, it is still track laying, and the flexibility of caulk, as it cures, allows plenty of time to make adjustmenst as you go.
Mike.
My You Tube
I used E6000 to hold the track down in my last helix.
It goes down clear so you can see your center line, and allows enough working time so you can get it lined up. Then when you press it down, it'll stay put. I used prescription bottles filled with lead shot to hold the track down while it dried.
The instructions tell you to use it like contact cement, but I put it on the plywood and then put the track down on top of it. The track will not be reusable if you later decide to take it up.
But... You'll need to do some testing because you have to worry if it sticks to the paint you used. I think the paint to hardboard bond will likely be the weakest link.
You may need to go mechanical. If so, a lot of guys have used #4 wood screws with washers to hold down the track. If the hardboard won't hold screws, you could put a nut on the underside if it doesn't affect your clearance. Be sure to use a little loctite. It might help on the wood screws too.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I know this is not code 100, but this method worked 100% perfect.
.
Years ago I helped a friend build an N scale layout with a helix to staging.
We used Kato Unitrack for all the hidden trackage. We did not glue any of it in place, but instead glued 5/16" wooden cubes to the subroadbed to act as holders. We ran electrical feeders every 180 degrees.
The operation was flawless, and if it ever would have developed a problem, it would have been simple to replace pieces of Kato Unitrack.
There was no chance of kinks or weird changes in radius. Everything was bullet-proof and perfect.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hi Brian,
Why not just use short flat head screws? I have seen several helices where the track was simply screwed down every few inches. The screws are installed between the ties as opposed to through a tie so in effect they are holding down two ties. The screw heads apparently don't cause any problems even though they stick up above the ties. Your equipment will have to be properly tuned of course, with no low hanging coupler pins or snow plows, but you are going to do that anyhow to make sure that they clear turnout frogs etc.
I'm assuming that you haven't assembled the helix roadbed yet and that you will have enough clearance to install the screws as you build the helix.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
For my helix into cork and plywood, I used small flathead nails through the holes in the center of the ties. Depending on how well supported your masonite is, this could be easy or very difficult to do (springiness between supports under the masonite can make driving a nail very difficult. Holding a small sledge hammer or other hard weight under the nailing point will help tremendously).
Nowadays I use Dap caulk for almost all track installation. I add soda or beer or soup cans to hold the track down after sticking it in the caulk and final adjusting it, until the caulk cures, like this:
The cans work fine on curves, too.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
carl425 I used E6000 to hold the track down in my last helix. It goes down clear so you can see your center line, and allows enough working time so you can get it lined up. Then when you press it down, it'll stay put. I used prescription bottles filled with lead shot to hold the track down while it dried. The instructions tell you to use it like contact cement, but I put it on the plywood and then put the track down on top of it. The track will not be reusable if you later decide to take it up. But... You'll need to do some testing because you have to worry if it sticks to the paint you used. I think the paint to hardboard bond will likely be the weakest link. You may need to go mechanical. If so, a lot of guys have used #4 wood screws with washers to hold down the track. If the hardboard won't hold screws, you could put a nut on the underside if it doesn't affect your clearance. Be sure to use a little loctite. It might help on the wood screws too.
I looked that E6000 up on amazon, and it does appear to have some good reviews. I did find one interesting negative, "And I'll add that "this adhesive glues just about everything I've thrown at it". I say "just about" because I found it won't adhere to PVC plumbing pipe or the fittings"
I did a number of little experiments with some old sections of Atlas brass tracks yesterday and several different glues I had around. I'll report on that later today when I get around to inspecting them.I am also contemplating some small screws ever so often along the circle. I have some sample #4 I picked up to experiment with attachment to my alum bridge decks between the helix and main shed.
I was just going to ask about cans on the curves
PruittThe cans work fine on curves, too.
When building my helix: http://onewolf.org/Album/LayoutConstruction/2016/index.html#P5081682.JPG
The track is leftover Peco code 100.
I used DAP Dynaflex 230 for gluing down most of the track, except 6" +- where the track was going to be double gapped for occupancy zone purposes. In the area 6"+- double gaps I used DAP 3.0 Window/Door sealant which is thicker/stronger than the Dynaflex 230 (which is thicker/stronger the Alex+ clear which I used for all the other track on the layout). I used FastTrack 37.5" and 40" Sweepsticks to ensure true curves and then laid soda cans to weigh down the track. No problem with the track moving after laying/weighing down. I soldered 4 sections of track together before laying/gluing each 4 track section.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
railandsailI was just going to ask about cans on the curves
One caveat there, Brian - My curves are 30" radius and larger. I'm not sure the cans will work on much tighter curves, but I think they will.
We used to have a gentleman here who went by the name tomikawaTT. He was really Chuck Beckmann from Vegas, or near there. Chuck offered a tip which I immediately began to follow, and it has served me well.
I built a substantial helix last time around. It only had one-and-a-bit turns, but it was nearly six feet in diameter (I had the space). Chuck had suggested that, on curves, one should use a needle file or a small flat file and slightly bevel both the top bearing surface of the rail head at the very tip where it was trimmed, but also the inner flange face. This reduces the chances of a flange picking the sharp top or inner edges of the rails and lifting off, thus forcing you to hope to keep the train in one piece and have it limp out of the hidden trackage, or to crawl under there and fix what needed fixing. I have done this for every rail joint, no matter where it is on the layout. It only takes an extra 30 seconds per pair of joiners.
I also used the clear-drying DAP Alex Plus with silicone. It held very well. But, at the joints, on the outside of the outer rail joint, I would place a couple of the small wooden screws with the slightly domed head, flat on the top. This was cheap insurance against creeping rail joints held only by a thin skiff of latex caulk. In truth, I placed many of those joints across natural ends of the cookie-cutter roadbed inside the helix, so the screws were kinda important to keep everything lined up when I didn't want to use joiners across the gaps. Can't remember why just now.
But, the bottom line is to make darned good 'n sure the roadbed is solid, that the tracks are well secured, and that the joints won't give your rolling stock fits...ever. Keeping good separation if the mains in the helix will be twinned, that should be about all you have to worry about. Well, that and planned access for...you know....
The cans do work on curves, but you can use lengths of 1X2, 1X4, and 2X4 scrap lumber across the rails and stack soda tins on the wood. Or driver batteries, driver tip carriers, metal files, cans of paint, pots of spackle, bags of nails....just ask, I've used 'em.
Selector, whatever happened to him?
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
railandsail...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time.
If you're speaking of contact cement, yes, the bond is instant. However, much of the track on the upper level of my layout is Central Valley tie strips on cork roadbed, with Micro Engineering rail (usually in 12' soldered-together lengths). After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
After the cork was all in place, the tie strips were done in the same manner - they have projections every few ties to denote the centreline, and these were simply aligned with the line in the centre of the cork as the waxed paper was withdrawn.
While some CV tie strips call for deforming plastic projections on the ties to keep the rails in place, I again used contact cement and the waxed paper...
I'm guessing that cork isn't used on your helix, due to clearance issues, so it would be one simple operation to install the track. You could do a centreline, but I think that an outer-end-of-the-ties line would be easier to follow.
While I didn't take any photos of that track laying process, I did take some during construction of a Korber roundhouse.The Korber kit (from over 30 years ago - I'm a slow worker) is made-up of resin castings, and I could find nothing that would reliably bond the pieces together, especially during handling. I finally said "screw it" and then did...
...even the floor...
Because I had shortened four of the stalls (and the fifth one, even moreso), I ended-up with a rear wall too short to look proper, and not short enough to allow me to add under-eave transom windows. I decided to add a "stone" cornice to the top of the rear wall, and built one using strip styrene. Here's the built-up cornice, painted and with strips of .020" sheet styrene added to its inside face - they'll be slid down the inside of the rear wall as an alignment aid....
With the bottom of the cornice and the top of the wall coated with contact cement, the waxed paper (same sheets as used for the track - nothing sticks to them, so they're re-useable in this service) was put in place...
With the assembled cornice atop the wall and the sheet styrene keeping it from slipping out of place, the waxed paper was withdrawn.....
...of course, once the soffit, fascia, and eavestrough was added, the cornice became invisible...
Painting-on the contact cement can be somewhat messy, but once it's dry-to-the-touch, nothing except something else also coated with contact cement will stick to it, and I'm guessing that the helix isn't going to be too visible to the visiting public, so no worries regarding the niceties of esthetics.
Wayne
BATMAN Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best.
What's Moosehead?
selector I built a substantial helix last time around. It only had one-and-a-bit turns, but it was nearly six feet in diameter (I had the space). Chuck had suggested that, on curves, one should use a needle file or a small flat file and slightly bevel both the top bearing surface of the rail head at the very tip where it was trimmed, but also the inner flange face. This reduces the chances of a flange picking the sharp top or inner edges of the rails and lifting off, thus forcing you to hope to keep the train in one piece and have it limp out of the hidden trackage, or to crawl under there and fix what needed fixing. I have done this for every rail joint, no matter where it is on the layout. It only takes an extra 30 seconds per pair of joiners.
Sounds like a good idea, and since the track laying in the helix all has to be done in stages, there is time for that.
selector I also used the clear-drying DAP Alex Plus with silicone. It held very well. But, at the joints, on the outside of the outer rail joint, I would place a couple of the small wooden screws with the slightly domed head, flat on the top. This was cheap insurance against creeping rail joints held only by a thin skiff of latex caulk. In truth, I placed many of those joints across natural ends of the cookie-cutter roadbed inside the helix, so the screws were kinda important to keep everything lined up when I didn't want to use joiners across the gaps. Can't remember why just now.
I'm going to use rail joiners in the helix, probably staggered. The screw idea is not a bad one, I'll keep it in mind as I start the process.
selectorBut, the bottom line is to make darned good 'n sure the roadbed is solid, that the tracks are well secured, and that the joints won't give your rolling stock fits...ever. Keeping good separation if the mains in the helix will be twinned, that should be about all you have to worry about. Well, that and planned access for...you know....
doctorwayne railandsail ...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time. After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
railandsail ...The instantaneous glues concern me about placing the track down in its circular form exactly correct the first time.
After drawing a centre line for the cork, I used a 2" brush to apply LePage's gelled contact cement to the plywood surface, and to the cork. After allowing it to dry for at least 20 minutes (it usually remains viable at least for an hour), I layed waxed paper over the plywood, then over that, added one of the half-strips of cork. One end was butted against the end of the cork already in place, then aligned with the centre line, visible through the waxed paper. Carefully watching the alignment, the waxed paper was withdraw towards the free end of the cork, with my free hand pressing the cork onto the contact cement as it was exposed. The other half the the cork strips didn't need the waxed paper, as they simply butted against the strips already in place.
doctorwayneI'm guessing that cork isn't used on your helix, due to clearance issues, so it would be one simple operation to install the track. You could do a centreline, but I think that an outer-end-of-the-ties line would be easier to follow.
I was thinking of some like that,...perhaps another piece of masonite or just thin plywood circular arch that the outer track ties would be pushed up against.
doctorwayne
I'm surprised you could find an adhesive that would work on that resin kit?
As I'm laying track around a curve, I use rail joiners AND solder the joints between track sections, before I curve the the last few inches of the section laid and the next one going in. This makes a solid section that curves naturally (at least for the "spring-back" type of flextrack).
railandsail....I'm surprised you could find an adhesive that would work on that resin kit?
I originally thought that I could put the roundhouse together with contact cement, but the relatively small contact areas and some warpage of the parts lead me to opt for the screws. I think that the only reason it worked for the added-on cornice was the shape (and extra gluing surfaces) provided by the sheet styrene used for alignment. The structure was handled probably more than any kit I've ever built, with it standing on edge (any side) on the workbench or floor, or even on my lap, just trying to create the truss system for the removeable roof...
It wasn't one of my more enjoyable projects, but I finally got it finished and operable.
As for the gelled contact cement, I first used it to veneer kitchen cabinets, and it's still performing, as advertised, after more than 30 years. It's main drawback for modelling projects is that, as far as I'm aware, it comes only in quart or gallon cans. The shelf-life is pretty good if you keep it closed when not in use, but it does, over time, lose its solvents to evapouration, and adding more supposedly breaks-down the gell, making it stringy like regular contact cement.
GraniteRailroader Selector, whatever happened to him?
Dunno, but I wish I knew. He was a retired navy steam fitter or something like that, maybe engineroom operator. Chuck was very active for quite a few years here. I think his last post was in 2017. While I'm here, Iron Goat, Bob Hollowel, has also slipped his last. Lost his wife Martha the previous year.
Back to our OP's topic....
Test, test, test. Every section that goes down, and every joint. Use big fussy steam engines.
Power the track and pull trains as soon as you can.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
railandsailWhat's Moosehead?
It's a Canadian beer. Adds just the right amount of weight to the tracks. Of course, the beer still needs to be in the can for it to work properly, and after all caulk has cured, it's best served in a frozen mug, to celebrate the track gangs accomplishments.
But then, If you have more track to weigh down, you need to get more Moosehead, the the cycle continues.
railandsail BATMAN Track, caulk, masonite........Moosehead works best. What's Moosehead?
It's Canadian for beer, eh?
Last two layouts I just used plain latex caulk with Atlas track, and just used some push pins to hold it on curves, no Beer Train.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Wayne,
That roundhouse roof structure is amazing, and very inspiring. I'm building a roundhouse for the club right now and I want the roof to be removable. Your structure looks so much better than just having the roof panels themselves lift off. Wow!
Thanks for the idea!
Cheers!!
Thanks for your kind words, Dave....much nicer than some of the ones out of my lips during construction.
doctorwayneThanks for your kind words, Dave....much nicer than some of the ones out of my lips during construction.
Ah, but my task will be much easier now that I have a picture to work from thanks to you! Besides, if I do end up cursing a bit I will know that I am quoting The Master!
I don't know if they'll be much help with your project, Dave, but there are more photos of the construction HERE.
DAP vinyl ADHESIVE caulk worked well for me on the entire layout. Even the helix.
I think they call it DAP Phenoseal now. https://smile.amazon.com/00005-Phenoseal-White-Vinyl-Adhesive/dp/B000H5OX4M/ref=sr_1_7
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
larak DAP vinyl ADHESIVE caulk worked well for me on the entire layout. Even the helix. I think they call it DAP Phenoseal now. https://smile.amazon.com/00005-Phenoseal-White-Vinyl-Adhesive/dp/B000H5OX4M/ref=sr_1_7
Well here I go with another of my strong opinions.
I use the product above, or it's equal called "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk.
There are other adheasive caulks, they will all work, but these two products have the best adheasion vs consistancy for this application.
They spread easily and hold well.
I use them every day in my work restoring and renovating houses.
I would never use "regular" ALEX painters caulk, it is NOT an adheasive......
But that's just me.
Sheldon