UNCLEBUTCH Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement? We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall. I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement?
We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall.
I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical.
[quote user="rrinker"]
A 4x8 is really a huge space waster, it takes WAY more than 4x8 of floor space to build and run it. A shelf type layout would be much more compatible with the other use of the office space, and offer more possibilities, just maybe not continuous running. At a reasonable stnading height, it would go over chairs and desks, so you might be able to run it along at least 3 of the walls, resulting in a much longer run than a loop on a 4x8. Limited spac e- forget the double tracked main. Model a branch line.
Unless you cna easily make the basement more livable - dehumidifier for the dampness, space heater for the cold, more lights - it will end up being a place you don't want to be, and in a less than ideal environment, lack of running will cause perpetual issues witht he layout itself. But again consider going around the walls on shelved 2' wide or less. You'll get way more layout in the same space as a 4x8, AND, since you don't have to reach over a 4' wide peice of plywood to build things, you don't necessarily have to work standing up to build it. Maybe a tall stool to build, with the height set to operate from a regular office chair. But only if you can improve the environment down there.
--Randy
[/quote
the only reason I was thinking 4’x8’ was if I’d build it in my shop and have it suspended so I could raise it up out of the way for other projects. I’ve pretty much gotten away from that idea due to the temperature swings out there.
MJPinSEWI I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical.
Can you stand up at all in parts of the basement? I wouldn't want to jack hammer up the floor either uniless I knew I was going to live there for a long long time and was serious about having a space to build a good sized layout.
Apparently you have two real options inside the house:
1) HO a small switching layout or ISL (Industrial Switching layout), or
2) N scale where you could have a layout to run trains in a continuous fashion.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Yep, I think we've covered all of mr. MJP's options, as to what we know about is house and space, in full circle.
We can't make up the OP's mind about space for his layout.
If he's serious about a layout, time for him to make it work.
Keep us posted!
Mike.
My You Tube
riogrande5761 MJPinSEWI I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical. Can you stand up at all in parts of the basement? I wouldn't want to jack hammer up the floor either uniless I knew I was going to live there for a long long time and was serious about having a space to build a good sized layout. Apparently you have two real options inside the house: 1) HO a small switching layout or ISL (Industrial Switching layout), or 2) N scale where you could have a layout to run trains in a continuous fashion.
No, I can’t stand up straight anywhere without hitting my head and the only room in the basement that is large enough to accommodate a decent size layout is more of a crawl space as it’s only a little over 4’. If a guy was going to go to that length it would almost make more sense to put an entirely new foundation under the house. If I had to dig down 2-3’ I’m sure it would compromise the footings & make more issues from there. I would be willing to bet a project that size would cost in excess of 30K which I am not willing to spend. Our house was built in 1880 and to start moving things and replacing foundation walls would cause huge problems upstairs. So the basement is out.
Your about right, cost wise, a little more. I've underpinned my share of house around SE WI, many of them around the Lauderdale Lakes area.
You can do it one wall at a time, but, the best way is to set the house on cribbing, remove everything thats there now, and build a new basement.
Plus a lot of the yard is trashed in the process.
Depending on lot size, and access, your talking $$$$$$$$.
Put it in the office OR..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in.
An interesting thread. Over the last year I've been getting back into HO railroading. I live in a two bedroom apartment with my roommate so there isn't a lot of space for a layout. Right now I'm running a =tiny= switching setup on a 12" x 72" piece of plywood. Not exciting but it's fun seeing my locomotives pushing and pulling a couple of cars back and forth. :-)
I can make a 4x8 layout work in my bedroom but it would be quite cozy.
Anyhow, thanks for the ideas guys!
Amanda
mbinsewi..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in.
Thar ya go, best advice I've heard yet. Sure it will cost,but, you'll have what you need/want
mbinsewi Your about right, cost wise, a little more. I've underpinned my share of house around SE WI, many of them around the Lauderdale Lakes area. You can do it one wall at a time, but, the best way is to set the house on cribbing, remove everything thats there now, and build a new basement. Plus a lot of the yard is trashed in the process. Depending on lot size, and access, your talking $$$$$$$$. Put it in the office OR..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in. Mike.
Now we are thinking outside the box. I don't exactly like the idea of adding on to my workshop but that did make me think of something I haven't previously considered.
This a picture of my workshop from the outside. The footprint is about 20'x30' and as you can see it's a story & a half.
This is just a picture of the acces to the upstairs storage area from inside the shop. That would have to change somehow.
The last 2 pictures are views from the upstairs. As you can see there is a good amount of room up here.
I will have to run some numbers to see what it would cost to finish the inside and take care of climate control. I have an electrician coming in spring to run a new feed to the shop, it wouldn't be much at that point to put a larger panel in the shop to accomodate the extra circuits needed. If you look to the right of the upstairs window you can see where the current electric feed comes into the building but you can't make out the actual wires because they are so small. I would have to see if I can find someone to run a gas line as well for heat. I have had it in the back of my mind anyway to run a gas line because it would be nice to have a furnace it the shop as opposed to just wood heat. I can't commit to this option yet obviously because I have to run it by the finance committee but it could be a possibility.
OMG, you have a second floor on your shop? Now we find out!
By the way, I couldn't get your pictures to open. I get a "File or directory not found".
mbinsewi OMG, you have a second floor on your shop? Now we find out! By the way, I couldn't get your pictures to open. I get a "File or directory not found". Mike.
I always thought of it as an attic/storage catch all and never really considered it for anything useful. I still need to see if this is a viable option dollar wise. This is also a pretty big untertaking with electrical, insulation, and drywall.
Why am I having trouble with my pictures? This is the second time it's happened. Can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong?
I don't use imgur, so I'm no help. Have you read the instructions on the top of the General Didcussion forum? Somebody will be along.
mbinsewi I don't use imgur, so I'm no help. Have you read the instructions on the top of the General Didcussion forum? Somebody will be along. Mike.
Yes I did and I thought I was doing it right but apparently I'm not as good with computers as I thought I was.
I don't know what you are doing and I like solving these mysteries. There are 2 views you see of your own pics. One has a list of links to the right of the pics. The other you have to hover your cursor over the top right and click on Get Share Links.
Copy the BB link and paste it in your text. Do not use any of the link or photo icons to do that.
it ought to look like (img)https://i.imgur.com/Ju67mOV.jpg(/img) except they won't be parenthesis, they will be the square brackets.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I use IMgur. I click on pic to enlarg, then the right click copy paste thing, can only move one at a time.
BigDaddy I don't know what you are doing and I like solving these mysteries. There are 2 views you see of your own pics. One has a list of links to the right of the pics. The other you have to hover your cursor over the top right and click on Get Share Links. Copy the BB link and paste it in your text. Do not use any of the link or photo icons to do that. it ought to look like (img)https://i.imgur.com/Ju67mOV.jpg(/img) except they won't be parenthesis, they will be the square brackets.
Thanks, I will try that next time. Anyway, these are the pictures I was refering to in my last post.
UNCLEBUTCH I use IMgur. I click on pic to enlarg, then the right click copy paste thing, can only move one at a time.
MJPinSEWI UNCLEBUTCH I use IMgur. I click on pic to enlarg, then the right click copy paste thing, can only move one at a time.
Picture came out this time but ti still doesn't seem quite right.
Finishing that attic is the ticket. It's not that different than me finishing my basement - drywall and insulation, outlets etc and lighting. Looks like a decent space. Too bad there aren't stairs instead of a ladder.
riogrande5761 Finishing that attic is the ticket. It's not that different than me finishing my basement - drywall and insulation, outlets etc and lighting. Looks like a decent space. Too bad there aren't stairs instead of a ladder.
The space is pretty decent size. Some quick measurements & because of the roof line I would have 12 or 14' by 29' to work with. I agree about the ladder but I would probably replace that with one of those folding pull down staircases. Not ideal but better. I hope I can afford to do this. I'm sure it's not going to be cheap, but not as expensive as re-doing teh foundation.
After some quick calculations last night I would be looking at about $3000 for insulation, drywall & electrical. The big unknown here would be the cost of a furnace. I had already been considering gas heat in the lower level so so this may be doable. How important is climate control in the summer? I don’t normally get a lot of time to spend on this type of hobby in the summer because of other commitments but I’m thinking more about the layout itself suffering from the heat and humidity. I don’t like the idea of heating it 24/7 all winter and I really don’t like the idea of having to run air all summer when I don’t get a chance to be in there.
Attics can get pretty hot in summer, even up north. But if well insulated and you have attic fans to pull air through it might keep it from getting extremely hot. I can't think high heat would be good for trains, let alone the layout.
People say it's the wood that expands and contracts causing issues with the track so you can try sealing the wood/bench-work with a water sealer to minimize the expansion/contraction effects.
I've probably put roughly 3k into the basement so far, but it has heating ducts already in it. The money so far includes plumbing to a basement bathroom, electric outlets, drywall, mud and other hardware. It was already insulated when built in 05/06. I've been doing all the drywall and mudding myself to save on labor costs.
riogrande5761 Attics can get pretty hot in summer, even up north. But if well insulated and you have attic fans to pull air through it might keep it from getting extremely hot. I can't think high heat would be good for trains, let alone the layout. People say it's the wood that expands and contracts causing issues with the track so you can try sealing the wood/bench-work with a water sealer to minimize the expansion/contraction effects. I've probably put roughly 3k into the basement so far, but it has heating ducts already in it. The money so far includes plumbing to a basement bathroom, electric outlets, drywall, mud and other hardware. It was already insulated when built in 05/06. I've been doing all the drywall and mudding myself to save on labor costs.
I would take care of most of the labor myself as well with the exception of installing a furnace and mudding the drywall. I have a guy that will mud and spray everything for 5-600 and do it much faster and better than I ever could.
MJPinSEWI I would take care of most of the labor myself as well with the exception of installing a furnace and mudding the drywall. I have a guy that will mud and spray everything for 5-600 and do it much faster and better than I ever could.
Mudding 700 sq ft of basement wall and ceiling area's has been a large task for me, but we have a lot of home renovation expenses so am trying to recover the bank account, otherwise would have preferred to have all that done by others.
Looking at the space where the ladder is and the opening to the attic, it does look like a stair up could be built, even a fairly steep stair, with a handrail on one side, or am I mistaken? I can imagine it will get old climbing even a fold down ladder (like I had in my down house) because it isn't much better than what you have now. With stairs, even steep stairs, you could carry stuff up and down much easier and it sounds like there would be many trips. Having the attic be more accessible that way would be a huge help.
riogrande5761 MJPinSEWI I would take care of most of the labor myself as well with the exception of installing a furnace and mudding the drywall. I have a guy that will mud and spray everything for 5-600 and do it much faster and better than I ever could. Mudding 700 sq ft of basement wall and ceiling area's has been a large task for me, but we have a lot of home renovation expenses so am trying to recover the bank account, otherwise would have preferred to have all that done by others. Looking at the space where the ladder is and the opening to the attic, it does look like a stair up could be built, even a fairly steep stair, with a handrail on one side, or am I mistaken? I can imagine it will get old climbing even a fold down ladder (like I had in my down house) because it isn't much better than what you have now. With stairs, even steep stairs, you could carry stuff up and down much easier and it sounds like there would be many trips. Having the attic be more accessible that way would be a huge help.
I would have to do some measuring but I feel like even the steepest of staircases would get too close to the service door. At least the ladder could be folded up out of the way when not in use. And before anyone suggests it, I cannot add an exterior staircase. I know that would make it much easier to enter but it would be a major renovation and the city would get involved with permits saying it’s being converted to a living space etc.
Ah, too bad. Maybe get a hoist with a rope on a pully to get stuff up there then.
You could also remove the sash from either of the upstairs windows, which would work great for getting lumber, and building materials up there.
Smaller stuff you could put in buckets and haul up with a rope through the scuttle.
mbinsewi You could also remove the sash from either of the upstairs windows, which would work great for getting lumber, and building materials up there. Smaller stuff you could put in buckets and haul up with a rope through the scuttle. Mike.
Absolutely. The window on the opposite side faces the alley and I definitely would have any drywall brought in through there. I remember when they did our house and they just craned it in through a window in like 5 minutes compared to me trying to haul it upstairs a sheet at a time. I’m sure it will cost a bit more but if it keeps me from having a heart attack it will be money well spent. Most of the other materials are relatively light and can be handed up through a window or scuttle.
I just moved from a house where I had my layout in the second floor of my large detached garage/shop.
The building is 32 x 40 with a 24 x 40 second floor accessed via a fixed, normal staircase.
The whole building is insulated, but only the upstairs had central heat and A/C.
I seldom heated or cooled the space when I was not out there, the quality of the insulation job did help limit temperature extreems.
In the most extreem weather, I would turn on the A/C or the heat, a forced hot air propane gas furnace.
Here are few photos:
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just moved from a house where I had my layout in the second floor of my large detached garage/shop. The building is 32 x 40 with a 24 x 40 second floor accessed via a fixed, normal staircase. The whole building is insulated, but only the upstairs had central heat and A/C. I seldom heated or cooled the space when I was not out there, the quality of the insulation job did help limit temperature extreems. In the most extreem weather, I would turn on the A/C or the heat, a forced hot air propane gas furnace. Here are few photos: Sheldon
Thanks, that helps a lot. Just out of curiosity, where about are you located? What are the tempratire extremes?