rrebellShaper sheets are expencive, $11.99 vs plaster cloth at $1.47 for same area covered.
Hi rrebell,
We will use plaster cloth for areas that will be permanent and can be reached easily. The area that we are proposing the Shaper Sheets for is either out of reach or very difficult to reach. We want to be able to lift the scenery out in two or three sections so we can work on it easily. Using plaster cloth in that area would add significantly to the weight.
Some members have argued that making parts of the scenery removable will subject them to damage. Perhaps so, but a number of us feel that we can do a much better job on the scenery if we are not having to reach long distances or work from stools, ladders or access hatches. Once the scenes are done there should be very little reason to remove the sections again.
One advantage we have is that the portable layout sits on three tables roughly 30" x 72" ea. When the portable layout is not set up those tables will make perfect workbenches for doing the scenery for the permanent layout.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi rrebell & dave,
Where do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of?
Is the foam you are talking of the beaded white styrofoam? Isn't that messy to work with,...lots of those little beads blowing around?
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
railandsail Hi rrebell & dave, Where do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of? Is the foam you are talking of the beaded white styrofoam? Isn't that messy to work with,...lots of those little beads blowing around?
railandsailWhere do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of?
Hi Brian,
I asked the same question not too long ago but I didn't get a lot of detailed answers. I finally got my hands on a Shaper Sheet tonight, and now I have more questions than answers.
The Shaper Sheet is definitely light weight, but by itself it does not have a lot of strength. The foil is much thicker than household aluminum foil and a bit softer than that used in disposable aluminum baking pans. It doesn't have the ribbing which adds strength to the pans but if it is crumpled a bit and then partly straightened out it is much stiffer, and that is how it is intended to be used. However, even with the crumpling effect if it were to be used alone any significant pressure on an unsupported area would deflect the surface. To be fair, Woodland Scenics does recommend using their Shaper Sheet Plaster over top to stiffen the surface. I was hoping to be able to avoid that to keep the weight down. As I said, we will do an experimental section with ribs approx. every three inches to support it to see what it is like.
As far as mounting trees, I don't see a problem. The Shaper Sheet is easy to poke a hole in and the trees can be glued in place and then propped up until the glue is dry, just like installing them in hardshell scenery. In fact the flexibility of the Shaper Sheets might be an advantage because if the tree is crooked after the glue dries the sheet will bend easily to allow the tree to be straightened up.
For now, the jury is still out. I want to see it glued in place on the foam ribs before I can decide whether or not it is just a glorified screen and plaster cloth substitute. I am still attracted to the appearance, the speed of installation and the limited mess, so it will have to be pretty flimsy before I reject it. Of course, I'm not the only person making the decision so even if I favour it that may not be the way we go.
I have to confess that I came home from the club on Tuesday night a bit disappointed for a couple of reasons.
First, we had our monthly Business Meeting and a couple of dead horses got beaten to a pulp. The Executive Committee has just made some decisions regarding removing any perceived barriers to joining the club but one member decided that we needed to review every rule that had ever been in place regarding approving new members. After 20 minutes of trying to explain why we wanted to eliminate the rules, said member still insisted on discussing the old rules. The reason that we wanted eliminate the rules is because we have had a number of potential new members approach the club recently but not one of them has actually signed on. Maybe there is a message there.
After the meeting everyone went to work on various areas of the layout. Two members were working on a spur which will house a brewery. There is limited space for the scene and the track plan has been adjusted several times to make everything fit. They decided to ignore the track plan. What they did was put the first turnout in place, decided that it looked good, and then drilled the holes for the Tortoise wire and the frog lead. Then they went on to place a couple more turnouts based on what they thought 'looked good'. I decided to poke my head in to see how they were doing. What was immediately obvious was that the brewery building itself would be right at the edge of the layout if they continued in the direction they were going. My design had allowed for a space of about 8" between the fascia and the structure. I had to tell them to stop doing what they were doing.
The Layout Committee went to great lengths to define how the track positioning would be established when doing the sidings. Nothing was to be permanently installed until all the track and turnouts had been fitted into place and spiked down temporarily. I had to choose my words very carefully! I apologized for shutting them down and for now I have left it at that. I will have to make sure I am there to remind them of the proper methods when they start back in next week. These guys have far more modelling experience than I have. Maybe that's the problem.
Pardon me for venting! This what I signed on for, I guess.
Cheers!! I'm going to have another drink! Join me.
On a more positive note, I posted this in my thread about using my NCE Power Cab at the club but I meant to post it here:
"I should mention that we actually figured some stuff out for ourselves on Tuesday night!
We wanted to set up some situations where there would be two toggle switches controlling one Tortoise. Our resident electronics expert figured it out all on his own so I don't have to bore you with a dumb question. It's probably right on the Tortoise instructions anyhow, but we didn't have a copy at the club.
We also wanted to figure out how to get several LEDs on different control panels to show the position for a single Tortoise. After much cogitation it dawned on us that instead of putting a bunch of LEDs in series with the Tortoise motors (as we had been doing where there were only two LEDs involved) and thereby killing most of the power to the Tortoise motors because of the number of LEDs in series, we could just use the auxiliary contacts in the Tortoises themselves. Duh!!
There is hope for us after all!
Don't worry though. I'm sure there will be plenty more dumb questions to keep you entertained!
Dave"
hon30critterThe reason that we wanted eliminate the rules is because we have had a number of potential new members approach the club recently but not one of them has actually signed on. Maybe there is a message there.
Mike
Question Dave,I was installing my first Tortoise yesterday, and when I tried to cut off the switch control 'rod/wire' with normal side cutters it would not cut so readily? Are these rod/wires really that tough?
I have a good number of these Tortoise units, and it appears there are at least 2 types,...ones with a heavier rod/wire than the others?Can these rod/wires be bent,...perhaps as much as 90 degrees?
ANy heavier wire was supplied externally - ie, if you bought the Tortoise used, it probably has a thicker wire. The stick wire is fairly thin, but it works fine through standard types of construction (plywood with cork or homasote) and easily moved points like Atlas. For Peco without the springs being removed, or for a longer wire (thicker roadbed - like using 2" foam and then cork), the wire will bend and may not actually push the points over. So most people buy thicker wire at the hobby shop and use that. Piano wire is hardened steel, so you good cutters or a cutoff wheel to cut it - do NOT use rail nippers, you will ruin them very quickly. I have a pair of heavy duty side cutters, Klein I think, from the electricla area of one of the big box stores, they make quick work of the wire. Hold on to the free end when cutting, especially if all that's left is a rather short piece - it WILL shoot out like a bullet. Eye protection recommended, even so.
You can bend this stuff to form whatever sort of linkage you need, like mounting a Tortoise on its side, and then bending the end upward at 90 degrees to go up through the roadbed to the throwbar. Works just fine. You need pliers to get a bend right where you want it, usually.
It comes in all sizes. I think the included wire with the Tortoise is about .029. The hole in the arm and fulcrum can handle up to about a .037 without drilling it out, and that should be more than enough for HO. Some people go .041, I think that is way too big, there is no need for wire that thick. My last layout had TWO layers of 2" foam plus cork plus 1/4" plywood on the bottom and .035 was more than strong enough to put a solid spring tension on the points. Next one will be more conventional 3/4" plywood plus homasote roadbed, I may go .032 when I run out of what I have.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Randy, very informative.
railandsailwhen I tried to cut off the switch control 'rod/wire' with normal side cutters it would not cut so readily?
As Randy says, you need to invest in a pair of heavy duty wire cutters. With the right tool the heavier wires cut quite nicely. Also, as Randy says, hold the excess wire tight with pliers. If you use your fingers you can easily drive the wire right into yourself.
What can be tricky is getting the throw wire cut off flush with the top of the throw bar. It's hard to get the blades of the wire cutter in far enough to cut the wire off at the right level. We are using Velcro to initially position the Tortoises. The Velcro has a bit of 'give' in it. When we want to clip the throw wires off we push the Tortoise up slightly before we cut the wire. When we release the pressure the Tortoise will drop back down a tiny bit with the result that the throw wire ends up flush with the throw bar. You may have to practise a couple of times.
Once the Tortoises are working properly we use screws to secure them because the Velcro tends to come apart as the Tortoises are used. The screws do not need to be super tight.
A cutoff wheel in a Dremel also works to trim the excess wire, but eye ptoection or not, the idea of one of those wheels shattering at high speed worries me more than the side cutters launching the cut piece. They shouldn't break if you don't exert side pressure on the wheel, but also the wire does tend to get a bit, shall we say 'warm' while being cut that way.
I actually use servos not Tortoises but the mechanical linkage is the same. The servo mounts I used last time came with some double sided tape that was much thinner than Velcro pads, which were good enough to hold things until the screws were added, and there wasn;t much give. I just center them - that extends the most wire - before cutting off the excess, at that point, when the points are thrown to either side the wire is below the level of the throwbar and more or less just reaches level at the middle of the throw.
There is a type of plier with the blade on the end for heavy duty flush cutting called end cut pliers (in the trades they use it for cutting off the ends of nails), they make smaller versions too.
rrebellThere is a type of plier with the blade on the end for heavy duty flush cutting called end cut pliers (in the trades they use it for cutting off the ends of nails), they make smaller versions too.
In a previous thread the end cut pliers were suggested but someone pointed out that because the width of the blades on the normal sized pliers is wider than the space between the rails, the pliers can't reach in far enough to make a flush cut. You can get them in on an angle but the result is exactly the same as using standard wire cutters. I have a set of narrower end cut pliers but mine aren't hardened enough to cut the music wire without damaging the jaws. Hardened narrow blade end cut pliers are probably expensive.
I can't quickly find the same ones I have on the HD site to link in, but I'm pretty sure the ones I have are Klein side cutters. They come is several sizes. I know I don;t have the midget ones, but mine may be the 8" instead of 9" model. They are not too wide to fit close to the throwbar of a code 83 HO turnout. They are definitely hardened. I used the back side of them to burnish the rail and never had to clean my track after that (like the whole gleam thing, but minus the polish)
Mini ones are out there Aven makes some.
Good progress at the club on Tuesday night.
Dave, our trusty Treasurer (at least he better be!), figured out most of the remaining track for the service area. He had to make a few changes to the original plan but ultimately things worked out well.
Henk, our Secretary and former President, has started to install some foam for the scenery base between the upper and lower tracks on the south side of the peninsula. It looks great even though it's just foam at this point. Henk had previously also installed the subroadbed for part of the center of the peninsula so that is waiting for Homasote and track to be installed.
Richard, our Vice President, made more progress on the industrial area that has become his pet project. As with a lot of the industrial areas, fitting the track in has been a challenge but he is making it work.
Rene and Ron, our intrepid Tortoise installers hooked up a few more of the wee beasties.
As for me, I seemed to spend most of my evening answering questions and offering opinions on the work being done. Whether or not anybody paid any attention to what I was saying is anybody's guess!
I will post more pictures once the industrial sidings have progressed to the point of actually looking like something.
Cheers!!
Good to hear the progress Dave!
Water Level RouteGood to hear the progress Dave!
Thank you!
One other thing that happened on Tuesday night was that one of our members who spends his winters in Arizona showed up at the club. We asked him what he thought of the progress over the last six months and to our dismay he said things didn't look much different from when he left in the fall! Well, that was a bummer!!
In truth he was right. When you look at the top of the layout things haven't changed much. We made very little progress on track laying for several months because we were waiting for turnouts from Atlas. The mainline was in but the industrial sidings basically sat idle. We had most of the areas planned but no turnouts to build them with.
We did ask the same member to have a look underneath and he was reasonably impressed. In addition to the 60 gazillion miles of wiring that has been installed, we have about 60 Tortoises in and operating and about half of the control panels installed and working, at least in their beta formats. We will make them look pretty once we have the designs finalized.
We had a very entertaining running night on Tuesday. Again, we can't call them operating sessions because there aren't enough sidings in place to really do much operating, at least in terms of the layout as a whole. However, Ron had a good time in the main yard and we managed to have four trains running on the mainline all at the same time.
The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Several trains were run through turnouts which weren't thrown the right way. Duh! One passenger car derailed thanks to said incorrectly thrown switches, and the car fractured into several pieces when it hit the floor! Did I say "Duh"?
The evening further reinforced the fact that we need to have a dispatcher overseeing what is going on. We will get there eventually. (I believe that you have heard me say this before. I'm not sure which emoticon is appropriate - You choose!).
hon30critter The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Dave
The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles).
Is some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives?
What DCC system are you using that has emergency stop??
railandsail hon30critter The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Dave Is some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives? What DCC system are you using that has emergency stop??
Pretty sure all of the dcc system throttles have an emergency stop button. On NCC Powercab, its a big red button in the middle of the throttle. Its probably not used very often and is forgotten about, so I can see where members get into a panic mode and use their hands.
- Douglas
The only time a keep alive would interfere is if the loco was running on track so dirty there was no DCC signal. The keep alive does not keep a loco moving if it is receiving commands to stop.
We occasionally have it happen even though we have a fully functional signalling system. Sometimes people just don't pay attention. Since there is usally a dispatcher sitting at the JMRI computer, you usually can't get away with anything, as they know immediately if you occupy the block past the red signal you were supposed to stop at.
railandsailIs some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives?
No, keep alives were not the issue. In fact they would probably have helped a lot, that is if we were able to add them to the operators' brains and not the locomotives!! There is this thing called 'paying attention' especially to what is down the track ahead of your locomotive. We still have some learning to do!
Sounds like the Peter principle met Murphy's Law
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddySounds like the Peter principle met Murphy's Law
Yes, and add in the Keystone Cops too!
I didn't run anything. I didn't know whether or not it was safe to put something on the tracks!
It's funny how the layout became congested so easily. Without a dispatcher to force people to wait their turns we had several occurances where all four mainline trains were in the same area of the layout at the same time. Of course without any working sidings everybody was restricted to the mainline so congestion was inevitable.
hon30critter Hi Brian No, keep alives were not the issue. In fact they would probably have helped a lot, that is if we were able to add them to the operators' brains and not the locomotives!! There is this thing called 'paying attention' especially to what is down the track ahead of your locomotive. We still have some learning to do! Dave
Hi Brian
Thanks for that Dave. I had a GREAT laugh this morning
Sounds like when I tried to run a full load (12) locoos on my Zephyr, on a single track 8x12 loop. Was like Lucy in the factory trying to keep them all from crashing.
Funny though, the club I belonged to years ago, we had 2 walkaround DC throttles, one for the east main, one for the west main. At open houses we would have 4 or 5 trains on each direction. Without independent control of any sort, it was usually up to soomeone to be a 5 finger brake and hold up a train that was creeping up on the rear of the one ahead. It was a pretty big layout, so it wasn't too crazy, usually could get in 10 or more laps before something got to close to something else. I guess that's a case where not having independent control was better, no one could crank up a throttle and make their train catch up with one ahead.
You will definitely need some sort of control in place before an open house - if they already run into one another, how bad will it get when someone stops watching their moving train and starts talking to a visitor? Back in the old days, they used to give out 'brownies' to people who messed up, too many bad marks and you lost your running privilege for a time. Used to be a frequent mention in the old Bull Session column.
rrinkerYou will definitely need some sort of control in place before an open house - if they already run into one another, how bad will it get when someone stops watching their moving train and starts talking to a visitor?
We already learned that the hard way. We had a 'Golden Spike' ceremony last year to celebrate the completion of the mainline. We had quite a number of guests, many of whom were highly experienced modellers. Of course we let a couple of guys run trains who didn't or weren't capable of understanding the need to watch their trains so we had several rear end collisions or incidents where five fingers had to be used to prevent them.
The fact that we now have a layout where this is happening is actually a good sign. The club has come a long way in the past 20 months. We haven't had anything to operate on for years. We just have to do some educating and learning, and possibly pass out a few 'brownies'.
hon30critterwe had several occurances where all four mainline trains were in the same area of the layout at the same time.
Sounds just like little kids playing soccer.