PEDI have not maintained pace with all your posting
Hi again,
Yes, the post is getting a bit long winded, and there are also other threads associated with it. Maybe some day I'll do a condensed version.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave,
Just got caught up on the club build and it is coming along quite well.
Robert
We had a productive Layout Committee meeting on Monday night. We discussed terrain shapes for the southern half of the peninsula. The upper and lower tracks are pretty close together horizontally and we don't want the landscape to look like it came along after the railroad was built, so we were talking about putting some humps and hollows along the area where the tracks are closer together.
We also talked some more about the Hearst pulp operation that I mentioned previously. It will very likely go ahead but we want to find some pictures of the mill so we can come up with a reasonable resemblance.
We also discussed the area under the long bridge. The person who has taken the lead on that area had some Walthers structures in mind but we soon realized that they were too big for the space. One of them, the Walthers Transload Depot could be cut down by removing a couple of bays, but it still requires some space for the transport trucks to operate on. We are going to put a power plant and power station in the area since we already have the kits.
Tuesday night is our annual Christmas dinner. We are going to the Mandarin Chinese buffet. I always eat too much there and I always tell myself never to do that again, but I never listen!
Today I have been working on some of the turnout control panels. We planned on using bi-colour LEDs to indicate turnout position but now that I have the toggle switches in place I'm not so sure that the LEDs are a good idea. We wanted to keep the panels fairly small but that puts the turnouts quite close together in some places. The panels range from about 15" to 18" wide and they are all about 8" high. I'm concerned that it will be hard to see which LED is on which track unless you are standing directly in front of the panel. Part of the problem is that I bought 5mm LEDs. Either we have to make the panels bigger or we get smaller LEDs, or both.
Any thoughts?
I have wired two of the control panels.
This is the first one:
This is the second one. See any difference?
Both of them can be cleaned up with a couple of wire ties.
This is what the panel looks like. This is a temporary panel which will be used until we are satisfied that the track arrangements are final. Done with 3rd PlanIt.
We have been working on ideas for the industrial area that sits under the long bridge. We are thinking of putting in a shortened version of Walthers Trans Load facility as well as a power generating station. They will be the main industries but there is lots of space for other stuff too.
The initial design has one run through track. We could put in a second one on the lower left by joining the two spurs but I'm not in favour of that option. To me it would simply be redundant track. There are already two mainline tracks following the same route. The track would also be curved throughout most of its length which would make it awkward for spotting industries along it.
One of the bridge towers blocks access to part of the trans load truck dock, but I think we can live with that. Either that or extend the dock so that trucks can access it past the tower.
Any comments?
hon30critterAny comments?
Is this layout going to have any scenery? If so, do you care if it is believable?
The problem with cutting across the corner with the track for the power station is you're now on the spot to do something with the scenery that shows why the mainline didn't just take that route in the first place. Remember that you have to make it look like the scenery was there first - and in the case of industry tracks, like the mainline was there first.
I'd encourage you not to be so anxious to fill every square inch of space with track. Before you know it, you'll have the dreaded "bowl of spaghetti".
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hi carl425. Thanks for your feedback.
carl425Remember that you have to make it look like the scenery was there first
Totally agree. Having the track look like it was carved into the scenery as opposed the the scenery coming after the track is a major goal.
carl425I'd encourage you not to be so anxious to fill every square inch of space with track. Before you know it, you'll have the dreaded "bowl of spaghetti".
If this were my own layout at home I would agree with you. However, this is a club layout and we want to create as many opportunities for operators as we can. In fact, we are deliberately putting in track configurations that don't necessarily make a lot of sense, but do provide some switching opportunities. If the track looks like a 'spaghetti bowl' so be it. We are not building the layout just to look pretty. I hope our reasoning doesn't offend too many people.
As it is, besides the yard, the service area and the passenger stations, there are only seven tracks coming off the mainline into industrial areas. That's not a lot IMO.
hon30critterthis is a club layout and we want to create as many opportunities for operators as we can
I thought that might be the case. Oh well.
What if you took the power plant out of the industrial area toward the bottom and put it roughly the same place but connecting to the mainline on the side of the aisle? I'd prefer the right side, but it could be on the left as well.
That would get rid of the corner cutting issue and establish the power plant as a separarte place which IMO is more realistic since they tend to be by themselves.
carl425What if you took the power plant out of the industrial area toward the bottom and put it roughly the same place but connecting to the mainline on the side of the aisle? I'd prefer the right side, but it could be on the left as well.
There won't be any space on the right side because the area is sloped up to the mainline which is about 6 1/2" above the surface that the power plant will be sitting on. There will be just enough room to the right of the power station as it sits now for a sub station. I'll add some elevations to the diagram and re-post it.
We could put the power station on the left as you suggest but we were hoping to have have a couple more industries in that area.
Edit:
Here's the drawing with elevations.
I know the first thing that you are going to think is that the terrain is following the track. I really wish that the room was a lot bigger but it isn't, and the mainline track is laid so we have to live with what we've got.
I got interviewed by the media today! No, it wasn't the New York Times.
We are doing a two day show at the Barrie library on Saturday and Sunday, and we were contacted by a local on-line community news service, Barrie Today, to talk about the show. We invited the gentleman to the club to talk about the show and who it would appeal to, and to see our layout in progress. He was quite interested in the layout. He took a bunch notes and lots of pictures, and even made a couple of videos of trains running. It will be great publicity for the club.
Of course a couple of the cars on the first train we showed him derailed seriously! Murphy's law.
I'll post a link to the article when it's out.
Time to start a train TV channel - you can cover model trains in Canada, I can cover Amtrak travel in the US...
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Here is the Barrie Today article:
https://www.barrietoday.com/local-news/model-trains-steam-into-downtown-library-this-weekend-14-photos-1174846
We also got onto Barrie CTV local news.
https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1574765
The library show was quite a success. We had people lined up before the library opened and there was usually quite a crowd around the layout.
We only had one idiot knock a train off the rails! That was me!
Nice. You interview better than I do. Or at least are more photogenic.
Is that a Canadian thing, calling the layout a "set-up"? Like it's only there for a while, and it will be taken down. OK for the sectional portable layout you have, but the permanent club lkayout? Of course, Howard Zane has mentioned that a visitor or two to his wonderful layout asked if he took it all down and put it up again each Christmas. We called the one we used to set up when i was a kid the "platform" because, well, that's exactly what it was, two 4x4 sections of plywood sitting on sawhorses, no frame whatsoever.
rrinkerIs that a Canadian thing, calling the layout a "set-up"?
I guess so Randy. We use the term 'set-up' to describe pretty much anything that required some assembly. It's application is far broader than just model train layouts. I never thought that it might be a Canadian colloquialism 'eh'.
Hi folks,
Over the past week we have been having a close look at our portable layout. The layout is about six years old and it is suffering a raft of problems. The list we made is four pages long (landscape view). It is done by module and there are nine modules, so some of the entries like cleaning and dusting are listed more than once. Many of the items will only take a few minutes. Others will require some major work.
The biggest problem is the fact that the layout is built on 2" foam. Foam is fine for stationary layouts but it doesn't hold up so well when it is repeatedly being bounced down our often bumpy roads. When track starts to come loose it is very hard to get it to stick back down unless the track is totally removed and re-laid. Fortunately there are only a few areas where the track will have to be torn up.
There are other problems. For example, the town area was built on foamcore which is now coming loose and curling at the edges. We are going to remove the foamcore and replace it with 1/4" baltic birch plywood. Getting the buildings loose from the foamcore will likely result in some structural calamities.
We also desperately need to redo the scenery in many places. It it just plain ugly. Somebody used sphagnum moss on top of one of the mountains. It is totally bleached out and actually looks more like road kill than bushes.
Somebody molded some rocks for the mountains, but instead of using commercial rock molds with some texture, they used plain, round, smooth rocks about 3" or 4" wide that do not resemble rock formations in any way, shape or form. Then they filled in the gaps with a putty knife and every stroke that they made can still be seen.
Somebody decided at one point that we needed brightly coloured flowering bushes everywhere on the layout. They look totally unrealistic except around the houses in the town, except they didn't put any bushes in the town! Go figure!
Somebody decided to go nuts with static grass so they painted the entire yard area, tracks and all, with brown paint and grassed the whole shebang! We have spent hours trying to get the grass out from between the tracks to no avail. The yard is essentially useless.
I'm going on too long here so I'll quit. I will try to get some before and after pictures so you can all have a good laugh (at the before pictures only please).
hon30critterWe also got onto Barrie CTV local news.
The bloke torked funnie!!!
Good publicity, Dave.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Yes, it was.
Having the reporters cover the show at the library was great, but it was also a bit of a wake up call for me. The reporters came to us. We didn't know that they were going to cover the show until they showed up or called us a couple of days in advance. We should have gone to them well before the event to make sure we were getting coverage.
We also need to be more proactive with monitoring the various websites that list our club. We discovered last year that we were getting exposure in several places that we were unaware of. Unfortunately some of the listings were out of date so we will have to keep a closer eye on them. It's a bit of a challenge because these websites generally don't tell us that they are going to list us. We have discovered most of them by doing a general search for our club. We will have to do that on a more regular basis.
Always more to do!
Foamcore ?
So the layout is only 6 years old,...and experiencing problems with foamcore?
I was recently giving some consideration to utilizing this material for mounting 'removable structures'
Was the brand you chose to use, a good brand or just dollar store stuff??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Plain old foamcore is kind of just heavy paper sandwiching a thin foam center. Probably less than ideal with varying conditions - temp and humidity changed cause the paper to want to curl. Either the wood, or something liek Gatorfoam is probbaly more long-term stable. Although there is the one group who builds their actual modules with a lot of foamcore, and carries they around to shows. Light weight but very strong.
Extruded foam for a module - I think it would be fine IF it was surrounded by wood - say a thin wood fram sort of like a slt bed frame where the foam sits down in, protected around the edges, so the mating edges of each module are wood, not foam. Foam alone won't stand up to that. The tops should be fine, anything bashing the top would also bash whatever structures, scenery, and track were on top.
We don;t have any pure foam modules, but most of the new ones incorproate extruded foam for scenery and are built a lot lighter than the older modules. But they also don;t get carried in people's cars and trucks, we have rolling racks that go into three enclused trailers we use to transport the layout. Storgae - they stay in the trailers, and the trailers are parked inside a large former industrial building as sort of a garage, but unheated/uncooled. Just protected from rain, snow, and sun. SO far so good, getting on 10+ years doing it this way now, sure beats the old way where the modules were stored and transported in racks built in an old school bus. Setup and teardown time has greatly improved - the old way, it took at least 2 people to carry just one module, after working it out of the school bus (funny how they seemed so big when you went to elementary school). Now, two people can move a whole rack, consisting of as many as 6 modules. And the racks are organized by where each module fits in the layout. In some venues, it's even possible to park the trailers close to the setup location. All the racks are rolled in, staged in the space allocated for the layout, arranged as to the location of the modules they carry, then we start unloading from the racks and setting up. Goes quickly - couple of hours to set up 27x150 and have trains running.
Build your modules out of 1x4, maybe 1x6 would be better yet so you could profile the front in places without loosing stability and inset the foam set inside the modules. You can use WS Flex-Paste to blend the two (worked great for my front masonite to foam bead on my last layout, never a proublem. My modules could be lifted with one finger but were very rigid. I developed a way to make plaster rocks with real plaster that were lightweight also and made a mountain with a high steel trestle on it. It was 4'x4' and could be lifted with one hand when compleated.
I tried using the foam core board for a couple of projects, not actually railroad related, just some architectual models, and a poster type display board, explaining the models. Scapped it all, as it warps bad enough that I would have needed to fasten it wood frame work.
It warps worse with paint on just one side.
Doesn't matter what the brand is.
Mike.
My You Tube
This gentleman over on another forum appears to have EXTENSIVE experience with foam core construction, and appears to be quite happy with the results,...
Klyzlr foamcore site:model-railroad-hobbyist.comhttps://www.google.com/search?q=Klyzlr%20foamcore+site%3Amodel-railroad-hobbyist.com
I think he uses primarily a 3M brand
railandsailWas the brand you chose to use, a good brand or just dollar store stuff??
Hi Brian,
I haven't a clue where it came from. Before my time. I do admit that I'm a bit confused by why it is warping. The only reason I can think of it the possible shrinking on the paint used on top of it combined with a less than satisfactory bond with the foam underneath it.
Ultimately the source and quality don't matter. It has to be replaced.
I should have provided more details about the construction of the portable layout modules.
The 2' x 4' modules have a 1x4 outer frame with a plywood base about 3/8" thick. The 2" foam sits inside that frame so it is well protected. The modules are quite sturdy and reasonably light weight. When on display they sit on three tables about 2 1/2' x 6'.
The problems seem to be caused by whatever is on top of the 2" foam not sticking to it properly. For example, in the past couple of years we have attempted to repair some of the ballast that was breaking loose. Those repairs had varying degrees of success. I personally did about 8' of mainline and I soaked the new ballast until it was literally almost swimming in glue. That ballast it still as hard as a rock. Other areas that were done by different people didn't get as much glue and guess what? They are breaking apart. Now the question is if we simply pour more glue into the cracks and add some more ballast to fill them, will the ballast in those areas crack and come loose again? I suspect so, but I'm only one voice in the repair process.
I think you're right about that, the only way to really fix the ballast would be to clean out the bad areas and redo it. Just filling in, it will probbaly crack out again in the same way.
Silly question but, some extruded foam comes with a thin plastic layer on one side. That would really cause issues with glues adhering to the foam. Did this particular foam have that and someone didn't peel it off, or didn't peel ALL of it off?
I think I know the problem with the foam. You used the typicaly recamended blue or pink stuff. This is relativly smooth. I used beaded foam which has larger holes so the plaster cloth has something to grip and is less likely to warp long term. As for the ballast problem, white glue has little give as it ages which dosn't mater much if it just sits in place but any movement will cause what you discribe. One of the advantages of matt medium is it remains flexable to some extent (remember it is formulated to adhere to very movable canvases).
So you are saying to use matt medium to attach ballast,...in all cases?
....from that other forum link discussion I provided above,...
Dear ???
I regularly use wet-on-dripping-wet scenery techniques with all-foamcore modules... (that is literally pooled 50/50 water/PVA mix giving a white look to the ballast on "Toorong")
not a hint of warpage to be seen... (and I have examples dating back over 15 years which are just as straight as the day they were assembled).
As for "ultra-thin" cross-sections, foamcore is functionally just like any other sheet material. To be strong in all 3 axis + longditudinal twist requires at least basic engineering principles to be applied, and appropriate levels of structural assembly. A 50mm/2" thick "domino" is well do-able, and capable of supporting most typical HO and even O scale trains...
Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
PS: Over 20 years of continuous Show/Touring-layout use, and many 1000s of road kilometres, Foamcore has not yet failed me in either wear-n-tear or liquid situations. As posted earlier, I use wet-on-dripping-wet scenery techniques exclusively, and have had modules exposed to actual rain during show load/unload situations with no ill effects. Indeed, there are documented examples of all-foamcore layout surviving full-immersion in flooded-basement situations, and living to operate another day... ;-)Prof Klyzlr
Another Foamcore detail posted by that same fellow...
Prof_Klyzlr Dear Foamcore Curious, Was just re-visiting the website for my local Foamcore supplier, and noted the below in their description. "... FOME-COR® BOARD The Original Paper Faced Foam Board The original and still the best quality lightweight foam board consisting of an extruded polystyrene centre core, bonded between white clay coated printing grade paper stock on both sides. Suitable for short term indoor graphic applications such as poster mounting, picture framing, point of sale displays, screen and direct UV inkjet printing...." Now, I've added bold to the important bit, but it's worth fleshing out: - This stuff is the original Name Branded Foam-Cor, as developed by Monsanto, passed to International Paper, and now manufactured by 3A Composites. I'm under no mis-illusions that there are other generic "foamcore" products out there, but it may partially explain the differences in performance seen by some modellers. - The "white clay coated printing grade paper stock" comment raises a flag for me. Clay coating gives a visually smoother, satin-y texture to the paper faces. I have seen (and used) "glossy look/smooth texture" foamcore, and (never consciously used) "matte, looks like typical computer inkject-type paper texture" surfaced foamcore, but it rings-a-bell that clay coatings can add a degree of "water imperviousness" to sheet papers. Not sure if this is important or relevant, but it sounds possibly related???
Dear Foamcore Curious,
Was just re-visiting the website for my local Foamcore supplier, and noted the below in their description.
"... FOME-COR® BOARD The Original Paper Faced Foam Board
The original and still the best quality lightweight foam board consisting of an extruded polystyrene centre core, bonded between white clay coated printing grade paper stock on both sides. Suitable for short term indoor graphic applications such as poster mounting, picture framing, point of sale displays, screen and direct UV inkjet printing...."
Now, I've added bold to the important bit, but it's worth fleshing out:
- This stuff is the original Name Branded Foam-Cor, as developed by Monsanto, passed to International Paper, and now manufactured by 3A Composites. I'm under no mis-illusions that there are other generic "foamcore" products out there, but it may partially explain the differences in performance seen by some modellers.
- The "white clay coated printing grade paper stock" comment raises a flag for me. Clay coating gives a visually smoother, satin-y texture to the paper faces.
I have seen (and used) "glossy look/smooth texture" foamcore,
and (never consciously used) "matte, looks like typical computer inkject-type paper texture" surfaced foamcore,
but it rings-a-bell that clay coatings can add a degree of "water imperviousness" to sheet papers.
Not sure if this is important or relevant, but it sounds possibly related???