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The North Bank road in N scale 4' x 6' layout

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, May 2, 2013 4:27 PM

Paulus Jas

Hi Gary,

a few years ago I made two plans for a 6x4 sheet; one HO the other in N-scale. In HO the Yule Central was modified.

Inspired by the HO Delaware & Hudson (Model Railroad Planning 2006 and 102 Realistic Track Plans #22) I made an N-scale version; just to explore passenger train running.

North Bank would be more urban with 4 story town buildings, while River Junction would stay rural.

Paul 

Gary,

This is what I was referring to,

Frank

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 4:00 PM

zstripe

Gary,

With all due respect,,,,shelve,the idea of the turntable and roundhouse,for now.. You said you love your passenger trains,I believe the plan,#22,would be great for passenger,the one Paul,posted... It is only ''My Thought''....

Cheers,

Frank

#22? I was going to have the roundhouse literally next to the turntable. I guess I could shelve it and save it for a different project maybe an actual layout that's bigger than 4' x 6'.  In it's place I could have a big passenger station errrr. atleast part of one... well shoot... 

Mike, thank you for your interest. Yeah that's why I've been bugging atlas for turnout dimensions so I can try and figure out exactly what amount of space they'll eat. 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:32 PM

I've been watching your thread BN #24, cool little project,  just thought I'd jump in with a track planning tool I used, kind of a full size type of planning guide,  I made cardboard cutt-outs of various track elements by tracing around the actual turn out, etc, that I would be using, and used them as a guide as to what might work, and kind of "mock-up" an idea I wanted to try with out, before I started to actually lay the track.  For the different  radius  templates, I made a compass from pieces of 3/4" x 3/4" wood, with a thumb screw holding them together at one end, and taped a pencil on one "leg" and a nail on the other, then just used a tape measure to set what ever radius I wanted.  Here's a couple of pics while I was in the planning stage, showing a few of the templates:

It worked for me,  helped me work out some yard and industry track arrangements, and just what would fit in a given area. It might seem old fashioned, considering all of the available track planning programs around but it gave me a "full-scale" look at what I wanted to do.  I kept the compass and templates, as I'll be using them again this coming winter ( not that it needs to hurry, still waiting for spring in a lot of WI) when I add on a staging yard and balloon track, and maybe another industry or two.

I really like your idea / project,  especially when you posted that picture of a train running along the Columbia River.

Mike.

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:30 PM

Gary,

With all due respect,,,,shelve,the idea of the turntable and roundhouse,for now.. You said you love your passenger trains,I believe the plan,#22,would be great for passenger,the one Paul,posted... It is only ''My Thought''....

Cheers,

Frank

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    June 2012
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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:15 PM

to answer both suggestions: Building an extension would be great unfortunately, the space for the layout is all the space that's allowed.

I've been pondering it and I can give space away space on the Pasco side because I was going to have a small yard there. all I'd need is the yard to be at least 3 tracks wide or in an effort to save space and better represent the SP&S main the pasco side can become a main and passing siding running parallel to the columbia, with detailing in the fore and background. the minimum radius is 18.75, I love my passenger trains.  

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

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Posted by galaxy on Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:55 PM

If you want to keep the roundhouse, why not make most of your layout a engine servicing facility? A small yard with the roundhouse,,not ALL tracks HAVE to lead to the roundhouse,,,some can just radial off the TT to dead ends for open air loco 'storage".

You could still ring it with a loop if you wanted continuous running, BUT:

I have a concern. I know how big some of the larger radius of curves Can get...it can take up a large space just for a circle OR oval...have you considered that? What radius did you say you wanted?

{ponders}

Geeked

-G .

Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.

 HO and N Scale.

After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.

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Posted by lone geep on Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:43 PM

If you would like to keep your roundhouse, why not build an extension off to the side and have it on that so it doesn't hog space on the main part? That way, you can have all your locomotive servicing on a separate module and would be easier to work with leaving you more room on the 4X6.

Lone Geep 

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:15 PM

SpaceMouse

You don't always have to have a roundhouse with a turntable.  It is the roundhouse that is the space killer. 

I know, but I bought it and built it a couple months ago. I was going to eliminate some of the tracks around it and possibly shift both of them to the left so I could have a small parking lot for employees and engine crews alike. as well as there being a roundhouse in vancouver. 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:07 PM

You don't always have to have a roundhouse with a turntable.  It is the roundhouse that is the space killer. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 1:42 PM

Sir Madog

Gary,

just a few remarks to your plan:

  • Lining all the track neatly alongside the edges of your layout will create an artificial, less prototypical or "organic" look of your layout
  • The turntable will eat up more space than you will have on that layout. The lead to the turntable should not act as a yard lead - the way you have drawn it, you won´t be able to pull out more than just 1-2 cars out of the yard.
  • Do you really need a turntable - I know it is an eye catcher, but in the Diesel era you can go without it.

Look at Pauls plan - it is a good balance between track & scenery!

Oh, I just re examined it I thought he eliminated my station tracks. *facepalm* he left them out so that I could focus on the upper area. Ok, I think Paul has nailed what I need for the Vancouver side down to the letter. Paul did you use flex or sectional track for the vancouver side on your track designing program? 

As for the roundhouse, well I'll be running steam(only a couple engines though) the engines I was planning on having in there was a light mountain, I will get a GN Mikado, and I will see what other wheel arrangements I will need for an SP&S loco to sit in the roundhouse. 

thank you for having me re examine it, I have one question though for the three track yard how long are those tracks? will they be long enough to store coaches? if not I could stub end it on all of the tracks other than the one leading to the roundhouse would that also be a viable option? 

I can also shorten turnouts to save space like in the N scale insights a couple issues ago.

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 2, 2013 12:43 PM

Gary,

just a few remarks to your plan:

  • Lining all the track neatly alongside the edges of your layout will create an artificial, less prototypical or "organic" look of your layout
  • The turntable will eat up more space than you will have on that layout. The lead to the turntable should not act as a yard lead - the way you have drawn it, you won´t be able to pull out more than just 1-2 cars out of the yard.
  • Do you really need a turntable - I know it is an eye catcher, but in the Diesel era you can go without it.

Look at Pauls plan - it is a good balance between track & scenery!

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 12:15 PM

I'm going to check how long 40' MTL cars are in inches, then measure other cars the longest car I own is a 5 unit Well car set.

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    June 2012
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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:16 AM

your passenger track came out to 42" long right?

I think I'm going to do a tiny bit more chopping. I'll modify the plan a little bit more. 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
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Posted by Paulus Jas on Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:31 AM

Hi Gary,

a few years ago I made two plans for a 6x4 sheet; one HO the other in N-scale. In HO the Yule Central was modified.

Inspired by the HO Delaware & Hudson (Model Railroad Planning 2006 and 102 Realistic Track Plans #22) I made an N-scale version; just to explore passenger train running.

North Bank would be more urban with 4 story town buildings, while River Junction would stay rural.

Paul 

  • Member since
    June 2012
  • 2,297 posts
Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Thursday, May 2, 2013 12:00 AM

placement of everything else?

I was looking at ME C55 switches they're expensive but would they be worth it? 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,251 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 11:13 PM

Burlington Northern #24
what degree would you recommend Texas? 

 

I think it might depend on everything else. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:55 PM

Texas Zepher

A general comment about the direction this is going.   It might be a way to gain a little more space and make it more interesting scenically if the divider is not straight square across the space but put at an angle. 

what degree would you recommend Texas? 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    October 2004
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:53 PM

A general comment about the direction this is going.   It might be a way to gain a little more space and make it more interesting scenically if the divider is not straight square across the space but put at an angle. 

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:19 PM

Interesting, thank you for sharing. I'll also go check out Micro engineering's switches.

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
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Posted by kevinrr on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:57 PM

Yes, that was the wrong page (sorry!). I edited the link above for thread history.

I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the kit price. But, if I intended to build a LOT of turnouts the jigs would be an excellent investment.

Instead I downloaded turnout templates to be printed, and the turnouts built directly on the printed templates. Here's a  long-winded but still excellent tutorial on the subject.

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 2:07 PM

kevinrr

Yes, but be sitting down when you see the price:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/HO-4-Turnout-Kit-for-ME-Code-55-Rail-cw-Rail-p/ak-ho-t-4-me55.htm

Most of the cost of that kit is in the jig and tools, not the parts. Once you have one you can build more turnouts for the cost of track rail and ties.

that's a scale bigger than I am also more money than I would be willing to pay, good thing I was sitting.

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    June 2012
  • 2,297 posts
Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 2:06 PM

I've done some more measuring and I think I've found a way to get around the station predicement. so the curve on the lower right side of the layout will get moved over enough that I can place two right hand turnouts which will serve as main line track and passenger station entry. I'm going to pull the yard and make it stub ended 2 track coach yard that can house 3 coaches a track which is 19.5" long I think those tracks would be easier to access if I placed them farther back maybe below the round house and turn table so that way I won't have switches cramming up the main. does this sound like a better alternative?

I was going to have a 3-4 track yard on the Pasco side of the layout. would that be doable in 4 feet? 

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    April 2013
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Posted by kevinrr on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:45 PM

Yes, but be sitting down when you see the price:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/N-Scale-Turnout-Track-Kits-s/415.htm

Most of the cost of that kit is in the jig and tools, not the parts. Once you have one you can build more turnouts for the cost of track rail and ties.

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:35 PM

I've contacted Atlas, to try and get length and width for their turnouts. I got an email address, so I'll send it. are there custom turnout kits in code 55?

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    June 2012
  • 2,297 posts
Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:50 AM

Paulus Jas

hi Gary,

I made a mistake, those #5 turnouts are 6" long.

Looking at the row of 10 turnouts I instantly knew these alone would take about 60" or 5 ft. Then you still need to add space for the yard-tracks, the two end-curves and some extra space for the engine terminal.

Tan-coloured are (Armstrong) squares. By using them you can easily estimate the total length a track configuration will take.

BTW when printing out turnouts from CAD 1:1 you are able to find their length. Peco has done it for their line of turnouts and placed it on the web. Their turnouts are shorter, however keep in mind  you might have to use small filler pieces to obtain the required spacing.

A 180 degree turn takes 37,50" , add 6" for a turnout in the middle and you still have 4,5 inches left. Enough for on more track at the bottom, still keeping 3,25" for the two spaces between the tracks and the edge of the layout. Pretty tight though just doable. On my drawing i've two turnouts in the middle, so I need half a foot more width. You could win some space by using Peco curved turnouts, they don't come really cheap however.

 

Yeah, holy smokes that looks right to the letter. As does your space mouse, I really like that plan. Frank I'm trying to be as realistic as possible, seeing as how I'm footing the bill for this thing  I'm trying to keep my eye on the ball and get a layout not a disaster.

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Rimrock, Arizona
  • 11,251 posts
Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:39 AM

Hi Gary,

I know you are probably getting frustrated with everyone pushing you to have an accurate representation of your layout plans. The thing is there are some very talented layout designers who would like nothing more than to help you. Most of these people look at what you have presented and moved on because you have not given them anything to work with. 

Learning a design program is not just for today, it will save you a lot of time and money with every layout you imagine--and it works big time when you imagine a layout and find out it won't work in the space you have...before you build it to test it with your track. Plus fiddling around with different options takes only seconds.

Here's a plan I drew in n-scale just for laughs and giggles a few years ago. it is 42" x 6'8" so not quite your space. When I opened it up to show you I immediately  spotted a couple problems, so it is not perfect.  I used XtrkCAD. 

 Two of the compromises that people with small space usually make is foregoing a roundhouse and turntable because they take a lot of space with very little operational return. Likewise, a double ended yard also takes a lot of space--and in your case above, serves little purpose. A stub yard takes less space. 

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:17 AM

hi Gary,

I made a mistake, those #5 turnouts are 6" long.

Looking at the row of 10 turnouts I instantly knew these alone would take about 60" or 5 ft. Then you still need to add space for the yard-tracks, the two end-curves and some extra space for the engine terminal.

Tan-coloured are (Armstrong) squares. By using them you can easily estimate the total length a track configuration will take.

BTW when printing out turnouts from CAD 1:1 you are able to find their length. Peco has done it for their line of turnouts and placed it on the web. Their turnouts are shorter, however keep in mind  you might have to use small filler pieces to obtain the required spacing.

A 180 degree turn takes 37,50" , add 6" for a turnout in the middle and you still have 4,5 inches left. Enough for on more track at the bottom, still keeping 3,25" for the two spaces between the tracks and the edge of the layout. Pretty tight though just doable. On my drawing i've two turnouts in the middle, so I need half a foot more width. You could win some space by using Peco curved turnouts, they don't come really cheap however.

 

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Posted by zstripe on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 3:38 AM

BN#24,

That sketch,that you posted,looks like,that would be a very interesting,layout,,,,now if it was on a bigger,plan,,, obviously,that will not fit in the space,provided,,,, I believe,you may have to be more,realistic in your approach to designing a plan.......

Cheers,

Frank

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Posted by Burlington Northern #24 on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:20 AM

Paulus Jas

Gary,

if you want to be taken serious, you will have to show a serious drawing. Just one turnout is enough to know its length. Some easy calculating will give you an idea how long a row of 7 turnouts will be.

Throwing impossible ideas around and then asking others to comment on them might not be the way to get respectful responses. It is not about what is exactly possible or not.  It's not even about drawing to scale. But when you draw turnouts one inch long while they are almost 5" in reality you are cheating and wasting my time.

As I've said before even a NTS scetch can be based on a known minimum radius and known turnout-sizes. That exactly is the beauty of doodling with Armstrong squares.

I'll be more patient, so I'll wait till you've found what's really possible after you have acquired some more track.

Paul

 

I'm not asking you to not throw in comments or suggestions, please don't do it with such a rude tone. To be honest but not disrespectful your comment did come off as slightly disrespectful, the track shortage is not making it any easier for me to get exact dimensions on what I need.

the minimum radius is 18.75, I tried finding track dimensions but to no avail. I managed to get one atlas C55 #5 turnout(I think) I will do some measurements when it gets here in 3-4 days. If turnouts are 5" long then placing one in the middle of the curve isn't doable, it takes 4 18.75's to make half a curve.  

SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide 

Gary DuPrey

N scale model railroader 

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: huizen, 15 miles from Amsterdam
  • 1,484 posts
Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:40 AM

Gary,

if you want to be taken serious, you will have to show a serious drawing. Just one turnout is enough to know its length. Some easy calculating will give you an idea how long a row of 7 turnouts will be.

Throwing impossible ideas around and then asking others to comment on them might not be the way to get respectful responses. It is not about what is exactly possible or not.  It's not even about drawing to scale. But when you draw turnouts one inch long while they are almost 5" in reality you are cheating and wasting my time.

As I've said before even a NTS scetch can be based on a known minimum radius and known turnout-sizes. That exactly is the beauty of doodling with Armstrong squares.

I'll be more patient, so I'll wait till you've found what's really possible after you have acquired some more track.

Paul

 

 

 

  

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