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Help Designing a Yard

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BDP
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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:29 AM

richhotrain

 

 BDP:

 

My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.

Brad

 

 

Brad,

If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises.  If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine.

Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be.  Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration.

Rich

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:36 AM

BDP

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:39 AM

Paulus Jas

hi Rich

you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in.

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af19/Paulus_Jas/YARDCOMPLETE.jpg

You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well.

BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout.

Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too.

Paul

 

Paul,

You mention that a switcher pocket could be added to ladder E as well.  What would be the track configuration necessary to accomplish this pocket?

Rich

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Posted by steinjr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:32 PM

richhotrain

 

 dante:

 

 

 steinjr:

 

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

 

 

Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks?  The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.

Dante

 

 

Dante,

I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard.

Rich

 Sorry - Rich is right. I must somehow have dropped a "yard" there - I meant the "third double ended yard track" (i.e. not counting the main). Track no 4 from the top of the drawing.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:47 PM

Well here is the vast majority of my layout. I am still contemplating putting in a spur or 2 on the bottom leading to some industry but what that is I am not for sure yet. I dont want to put the Inter Model yard there because I am planning a small town and maybe some farm houses.

In this Layout I did what Paul had posted out of the magazine. Like I said in my earlier post, I dont think my Caboose ground throws will work with this unless I need to add a short piece of track in between the diverging route and main line connections on the turnouts. I did move the turnout on the left down more to allow more room in and out of the yard.

 

In this one I went ahead and added a Shinohara curved turnout to connect to one of the sidings just to add another run around if needed.

Let me know what you think.

Brad

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:11 PM

hi

about the engine pocket:

hi Brad;

not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station.

Beside some esthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.

IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom.

Paul

 

 

 

 

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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:34 PM

Paulus Jas

hi

about the engine pocket:

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af19/Paulus_Jas/yard3enginepocket.jpg

hi Brad;

not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station.

Beside some aesthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.

IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner.

As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in.

Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:11 PM

BDP

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner.

As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in.

Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/LCVaccum/BDPLayout2A.jpg

 

Brad,

I'm betting that Paul wants that switching lead to come all the way down to the bottom left corner even if that requires a right hand curved turnout to make the connection to the main line.  Then the tracks to the ethanol plant could diverge right after the turnout from the main line that would form the switching lead.  That would make sense in order to make your switching lead longer than your longest train so as not to block the main line.

Rich

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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:14 PM

richhotrain

 

 BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 

Brad

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:15 PM

BDP

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/LCVaccum/BDPLayout2A.jpg

 

Brad,

So, the dark area is your interior aisle reached by ducking under the top or right side of the layout?

Rich

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:20 PM

BDP

 richhotrain:

 

 BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

 

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 Brad

Brad,

If you take a close look at the throwbar portion between the two rails, there are two plastic tabs holding down the metal points.  Those plastic tabs can be carefully and gently lifted out of position with a small screwdriver or the dull side of an Exacto knife blade.  Once lifted out of position, free of the metal points, the plastic throwbar can be reversed so that you have room to install a manual ground throw.  I never met a throwbar that could not be reversed, so consider giving it a try.  Once the throwbar is reversed, simply press the plastic tabs down on the metal points once again.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:27 PM

Paulus Jas

hi

about the engine pocket:

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af19/Paulus_Jas/yard3enginepocket.jpg

Paul

Duh !   I guess that I should have thought about that a second or too longer.  LOL  Thank you, sir.

Rich

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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:00 PM

richhotrain

 

 BDP:

 

 

 richhotrain:

 

 BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

 

 

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 Brad

 

 

Brad,

If you take a close look at the throwbar portion between the two rails, there are two plastic tabs holding down the metal points.  Those plastic tabs can be carefully and gently lifted out of position with a small screwdriver or the dull side of an Exacto knife blade.  Once lifted out of position, free of the metal points, the plastic throwbar can be reversed so that you have room to install a manual ground throw.  I never met a throwbar that could not be reversed, so consider giving it a try.  Once the throwbar is reversed, simply press the plastic tabs down on the metal points once again.

Rich

Rich

I will look at the turnouts again and see what I can do. If you say that it can be done I will give it a shot. Yes the black area is the walk around area in the layout. I wanted to do some sort of lift out but I didnt know where to put it and I wanted the layout to look good so I figured I can just duck under for now, then when I get older I can just get a stool with wheels on it and roll under it. LOL.

I am working on making the whole layout a double main track. I figured I will just go ahead and do it and get it over with. I will post pics sometime tomorrow or later on tonight if I have time.

 

Brad

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:15 PM

BDP

Rich

I will look at the turnouts again and see what I can do. If you say that it can be done I will give it a shot. Yes the black area is the walk around area in the layout. I wanted to do some sort of lift out but I didnt know where to put it and I wanted the layout to look good so I figured I can just duck under for now, then when I get older I can just get a stool with wheels on it and roll under it. LOL.

I am working on making the whole layout a double main track. I figured I will just go ahead and do it and get it over with. I will post pics sometime tomorrow or later on tonight if I have time.

Brad

Brad,

Just take your time and use a tiny screwdriver or the dull side of the blade on an Exacto knife. Lift up the plastic tab and move the metal point away. Then, lift up the other plastic tab and move thst metal point away. Then, remove the throwbar and replace it in the opposite direction and reapply the tabs.  A guy at the LHS showed me that some years ago, and I have always been grateful for the tip.

On your other point, it you can pull it off, by all means set up the layout as a double mainline.  Each one of your sons can have his own track, and you can work the yard.  My entire layout is a double mainline, and it is a blast to operate.  Maybe your wife can be the yard master.   Smile, Wink & Grin

Rich

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:21 PM

Brad,

Just out of curiosity, are you operating in DC or DCC?

Rich

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BDP
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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:17 PM

richhotrain

Brad,

Just out of curiosity, are you operating in DC or DCC?

Rich

 

Rich

I will be operating the layout in DCC. I have a Digitrax Super Empire Builder Extra on order and just waiting for it to come in. It has a 5 amp power supply. I did have the MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 squared but it was only 3 amps. Plus a couple of guys I know have Digitrax, so that way if I have questions I can give them a shout.

I plan on breaking it down into 2 divisions right now but possibly a 3rd, havent decided yet..

 

Brad

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Friday, January 21, 2011 3:02 AM

hi brad

just a vision, two trains can do lap running at the same time, a pretty short single track section over the lift-out remains. Loads of switching possibilities; switching the dock can be done completely independent from main line running.

BTW the second main is in reality the yard lead, used differently if needed.

The radius of the main is 30", IMAO a better choice for modern equipment.

The layout size is 20 x 12

Paul

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 21, 2011 4:59 AM

Paul,

Nice use of space on that latest diagram.

I really like the lift out.  To me, that makes more sense than the duckunder.  Only a single track to deal with thanks to the creation of the peninsula.  Nice.

I also like the addition of the staging area - - too much space wasted at the bottom in the original plan.

The longer switcher lead track solves the blocking problem though I question whether #8 turnouts are really needed.

The river and the interchange are interesting additions - - added visual interest.  We will see if BDP likes either of those ideas.

This proposed layout plan will be a challenge for BDP's two sons.  They may be too young to be able to cope with some of the nuances, but they can always grow into it.  If it were my layout, I would stick with the concept of a true double mainline.  That will permit the kids to each operate their own train on their own track without adult intervention.

But, hey, who asked me?  It will be interesting to get Brad's response.

Rich

 

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Posted by BDP on Friday, January 21, 2011 10:35 AM

Paulus Jas

hi brad

just a vision, two trains can do lap running at the same time, a pretty short single track section over the lift-out remains. Loads of switching possibilities; switching the dock can be done completely independent from main line running.

BTW the second main is in reality the yard lead, used differently if needed.

The radius of the main is 30", IMAO a better choice for modern equipment.

The layout size is 20 x 12

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af19/Paulus_Jas/yard04.jpg

Paul

 

Paul

 

I really like that layout. It seems to flow nicely together. I like the lift out option you have put in. In your diagram would the staging be hidden or would it be open. I guess what I mean about that is would there be a back drop between the staging yard and the rest of the layout. If there is then it would be a problem for me to possibly access this because I would put that part of the layout against the wall. If there is not then it would be ok.

I dont mind ducking under mine right now because I am on 5'8" tall so it isnt much for me to duck under. Plus I duck under things all the time at work so I am kinda used to it.

As I was working on getting a double mainline implemented I came to the problem on the upper right of my layout and trying to tie in the second mainline into the pinwheel on the right side of the yard. I thought well I have to put in a switch right before the yard and at that short point there is only going to be 1 mainline run. Then I see you have the single main for the lift out and that it is ok to have a short run of a single main as long as it is signaled right for the trains.

I will finish up my layout and see what you guys think.

Brad

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Posted by BDP on Friday, January 21, 2011 10:50 AM

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Friday, January 21, 2011 10:59 AM

hi Brad,

my mistake, i thought the top and bottom were against a wall.

I would flip the design, the classification yard against the wall, the staging yard accessible at the open side of the room.

Paul

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Posted by BDP on Friday, January 21, 2011 11:33 AM

Paulus Jas

hi Brad,

my mistake, i thought the top and bottom were against a wall.

I would flip the design, the classification yard against the wall, the staging yard accessible at the open side of the room.

Paul

 

Paul

That is ok. I made my yard bench work 36" because I knew I could access it from both sides. All other sides are 30" because with my bench work height that is about the max for me reaching over the layout only being 5'8" tall. I appreciate the work that you did and the results in the short amount of time you did it.

 

Brad

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 21, 2011 12:06 PM

BDP

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/LCVaccum/BDPLayout2A-1.jpg

Brad,

No, there are no reverse loops.  Would you like us to create one?  LOL.

By now, you are probably tired of suggestions, but that never stopped me.   If you truly want a double mainline, you need to rethink part of your latest track plan.  That now infamous switching lead, the inner track running up the left side, is really not a mainline track.  So, those two crossovers at the top of the track plan are connecting the switching lead track to the main line, a single track.  That's why you are having trouble on the upper right, coming around that pinwheel.  And the continuation of that inner track coming up from the bottom right is unnecessary, shoulda left it like it was before. 

What you need to do to create a continuous double mainline is to add an outermost track all around the layout with crossovers at appropriate spots (1)  to get from the outer mainline track to the inner mainline track to reach the switching lead track on the left side and (2) to get from the inner mainline track to the outer mainline track from the switching lead track on the right side. 

Rich

P.S. Any luck flipping those throwbars?

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Posted by BDP on Friday, January 21, 2011 1:02 PM

richhotrain

 

 BDP:

 

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/LCVaccum/BDPLayout2A-1.jpg

 

 

Brad,

No, there are no reverse loops.  Would you like us to create one?  LOL.

By now, you are probably tired of suggestions, but that never stopped me.   If you truly want a double mainline, you need to rethink part of your latest track plan.  That now infamous switching lead, the inner track running up the left side, is really not a mainline track.  So, those two crossovers at the top of the track plan are connecting the switching lead track to the main line, a single track.  That's why you are having trouble on the upper right, coming around that pinwheel.  And the continuation of that inner track coming up from the bottom right is unnecessary, shoulda left it like it was before. 

What you need to do to create a continuous double mainline is to add an outermost track all around the layout with crossovers at appropriate spots (1)  to get from the outer mainline track to the inner mainline track to reach the switching lead track on the left side and (2) to get from the inner mainline track to the outer mainline track from the switching lead track on the right side. 

Rich

P.S. Any luck flipping those throwbars?

Rich

You are correct is saying that it really isnt a dedicated double main line layout. Although I kinda like this yard vs what I had before. That space in the upper right hand corner where the pinwheel is I can fill that in with scenery or something else. For the short future the boys will be having plenty of help from me running trains. I do at sometime in the future plan to get a second controller but one will do for now. I think that short run of just 1 main line will be ok. I can change it later if need be. That will give me practice on tearing something out and adding something different. LOL

As far as the throwbars I havent looked at them since the other night. I wanted to get more of the bench work done before my sons went to bed. I got all of it framed. Just need to put in my 16"  supports in and then prime and then paint it. I am painting it to keep the wood from absorbing moisture in the summer causing the wood to warp. A painter buddy I know told me that it will help from warping to much. He said some may but most shouldnt. But I will look at them this weekend and see what I can do.

 

Brad

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Friday, January 21, 2011 1:17 PM

hi brad

i had 2 operating ideas in my mind. A single track mode and a double track mode when the boys want do lap-running.

Paul

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 21, 2011 5:02 PM

Paulus Jas

hi

page 28 in Freight Yards by Andy Sperandeo and  page 26 in Track Planning For Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

Paul

Paul,

It is interesting to note that John Armstrong makes no mention of an arrival/departure track in his book.  He does mention "receiving" tracks and yards and "departure" tracks and yards.  He more or less relies on the longest classification track to serve in that capacity. 

He places a lot of stress on the switching lead track.  As he notes, "The key item for efficient operation is the switching lead clear of the main track". 

In addition to the switch lead track, Armstrong also stresses the use of a thoroughfare track and a separate caboose track as vital to the efficient operation of the yard.

While Andy Sperandeo, in his more recent book, also stresses the importance of the switching lead track, the thoroughfare track and the separate caboose track, he continually stresses the need for a separate arrival/departure track for efficient yard operation.

Rich

 

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Saturday, January 22, 2011 2:02 AM

hi,

sufficient arrival-tracks are giving the dispatcher an easy life; his road is not blocked by waiting trains. At the very same time it would be great for the switch-master to have tracks where cars can wait till departure time, without fouling classification.  Extra bowl tracks or a sufficient number of departure tracks are often needed to keep yard operation flu-ed.

Real yards are gigantic; what to model? Using classification tracks as departure tracks is one trick. Spares the yard goat some extra moves too. David Barrow always adds an extra cross over between the main and switch lead to let escape departing trains directly from the classification tracks. 

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 28, 2011 5:29 AM

As I mentioned previously, this thread has really caused me to look deeper into the whole subject of prototypical freight yard operation.

In addition to the great links already provided on this thread to some excellent reference material, I came across a digital download from Kalmbach Publications for $5.95 that provides a compilation of 16 prior articles from Trains Magazine about freight yards.  Here is the link:

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/trpdf037.html

This digital download, in the form of a PDF document, includes a host of wonderful photos and diagrams of freight yards over the past 75 years.  Of particular interest to me in this digital download is a 2-part series from the June and July 2002 editions of Trains Magazine that covers the design of a prototypical freight yard.

I highly recommend this digital download to all who are interested in designing a prototypical freight yard.

Rich

 

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/trpdf037.html

Alton Junction

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  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 106 posts
Posted by BDP on Monday, January 31, 2011 8:00 AM

Sorry for the delay in responding, but been extremely busy with other things than the layout.

I think I have finalized my layout and I feel happy about it. Going to serve my needs for now. I maybe in over my head with the size of it but I wanted to go all out. My regret it but hope not. I have to finish my bench work which is almost done, just need to secure the top plywood pieces.

Here is what I have for a finished product. I had to make a few minor changes because I went with 32" radius on the outer main line and then 30" radius on the inner main line. I did this to accommodate 89' auto racks and box cars. Didnt want it looking to funny going around curves on my 24* and 22* curves. All of my curves are no less than 22* which I am happy with.

Thanks for all the help and even though touchy at times I appreciate the advice.

Brad

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: huizen, 15 miles from Amsterdam
  • 1,484 posts
Posted by Paulus Jas on Monday, January 31, 2011 10:00 AM

hi

Your spacing does not seem to be enough.

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html

Pushing auto racks might create some nasty surprises.

Paul

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