hi Brad
a minor tweak? why not simply post the new design, your playing hide and seek. But more important however, the idea about the design was not mine at all. It's the way to go when the yard switcher and mainline trains have to operate independent of each other, not necessary at all if only one train at a time is run, or the second train is on another part of your layout for quite some time.
And i told you before, Stein too, without knowing more about your layout any real discussion is impossible.
If things are going over your head, just ask and answer to questions asked.
BTW be prepared for some surprises,
paul
Paul
I didnt make that minor tweak at all. I got it to work like the design you posted.
Sorry I havent given all the info about my layout. It is modern era modeled in the midwest with grain facilities, ethanol plant, and other features in the midwest. Basically I wanted my yard to store cars, so I wouldnt have to take them on and off, and be able to do some switching. I have been out of model railroading for over 20 years so I am just getting used to the terminology again, so sorry for not offering more.
I am still putting things in AnyRail for the layout but I am not done. Between family and trying to build bench work and officiating High School Basketball I dont get much done other than at work. I have a job that has seasonal busy times and other times it is slow, so that allows me to work on this at work.
Here is a pic of what I have done so far. I have the yard done. I implemented the yard Paul posted and added a longer spur on the left side for longer trains if need be. I put the inter model yard where it is because that is really the only other place I can put it because I dont have room anywhere else on the layout but I wanted an inter model yard so that is where it goes. I know it may not be practical but will work for me.
So this is what I have now.
Paulus Jas hi Brad a minor tweak? why not simply post the new design, your playing hide and seek. But more important however, the idea about the design was not mine at all. It's the way to go when the yard switcher and mainline trains have to operate independent of each other, not necessary at all if only one train at a time is run, or the second train is on another part of your layout for quite some time. And i told you before, Stein too, without knowing more about your layout any real discussion is impossible. If things are going over your head, just ask and answer to questions asked. BTW be prepared for some surprises, paul
Paul,
Sorry, but I think you are being a bit harsh. It seems to me that BDP has been pretty forthcoming with what he is trying to do and, in fact has essentially adopted your plan. True, as Stein pointed out, it may not be a formal double mainline but we all get the basic idea. And, yes, the resulting plan still have the shortcoming of the switching lead probably being too short. But hey, what about selective compresssion?
Your help has been invaluable to not only BDP but to the rest of us. This has been an extremely informative and useful thread. I just don't want to see BDP get turned off because of the need to be more familiar with yard operation and terminology. After all, that is the title of the thread, Help Designing a Yard.
Rich
Alton Junction
Looking good Brad,Mine will be very similar except no intermodel track(50s)and it 16x2 instead of 20x3...I"ll watching your progress..Jerry
hi,
yes it might sound harsh.................
but i am rather serious, IMAO Brad is not really giving the information asked...and i am not sure his investment will result in a great layout.
The yard design he took, is needed if switching the yard is blocking mainline traffic. If he has a to short drill track he will still be blocking the main often; it is not cherry picking.
I talked about possible surprises, if he is not really specific about the cars and engines he will use, radii and switch-numbers might be to small. Not only in the yard; he is building bench-work already, i have no idea at all about the remainder of his layout and the pin-wheel arrangement takes additional width, does he have that? Apparently yes, though it would be nice to know before going to the drawing board
I do not know if his layout is build against walls, it was asked him too BTW, his tracks are to close to it; and sorry Brad, this is not meant to drive you away........
And one of the issues is the number of operators; i understood he has two sons, they might prefer a double track main, so both can run a train. I love a very short single track section; to keep them awake and let them experience a lot of near collisions. When one of them wants to do some yard work, the other can use the free second main; no use for dedicated yard-lead..............
I hope you understand why all these questions were asked........without knowing your situation and aims i can only give some general information.
Please bare in mind i am new to this as well, I am currently working on planning a layout myself for operations. I have come to a realization through reading as much as i can that if i want my longest train to be comprized of 10 cars of a 6" avg length each the space i will need for a proper classification yard with all the fixins i will need around 17' X 2' if you are using all # 6 turnouts
this will be the arrangment for the max amount of cars per ladder rungShortest = 42" 7 cars 54" 9 cars 66" 11 cars 78" 13 cars 90" 15 carsso that would give room for 55 cars to be stored and remmmber i said classification yard so cut that near half to make room to work the trains without frustration so your lookin at around 25 to 26 cars give or take for busy times. with the space ate up by but not used by the actual classification yard would leave room to make an engine servicing area.SO i guess what im trying to say is even tho it sounds like some of these guys just not giving you what you want to hear it could just be you cant do it the way you see it in your mind.having figured this out myself i am now stuck im my design stage untill i figure out whats more important to me right now the operations or running trainsif you want to see a pic of the yard i have drawn up let me knowCheers
Antag2002 if you want to see a pic of the yard i have drawn up let me know
if you want to see a pic of the yard i have drawn up let me know
By all means, post it. We would love to see a photo of your yard.
HHPATH56Hi Brad, The following photos show my 7 track compound turnouts which feed from two curved drill track turnouts from my mainline. By using double-slip switches one can have access to all 7 tracks without having the switcher have to tie up the mainline. By having the mainline overpass the yard, one can have 7 equal length tracks in the yard. All the tracks are accessible to each other, and the long drill tracks allow one to form long consists within the yard. Bob
Very nice.
I also like that bascule bridge in the background. Can you post a close up shot?
You better get a track crew to clean up after that tornado that came through your yard. LOL
how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?
Antag2002 how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one?
To upload an image showing your yard, convert the plan to an image (a jpg), and upload the jpg to some photo hosting sport (e.g. photobucket) .
You can do that either by exporting the plan as an image (if Anyrail has a function for that), or by taking a screen shot of your screen.
How to do this has been described a couple of hundred times in various posts. Search for "how to upload pictures" or "photobucket" or variants of that.
Smile, Stein
hi no i wasnt planning on hi jacking this thread. i use photo bucket just didnt think about converting it over. and i have a thread called new layout help http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/183399.aspxI was just posting here to give my 2 cents on yard design.
steinjr Antag2002: how do mi upload anyrail stuff here? Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one? Smile, Stein
Antag2002: how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?
Stein,
I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
I guess I dont know why you have to be so harsh. Sorry that I didnt give you the specifics on what my layout is going to be like until a few post above. I dont plan on running this like a real railroad like you seem to possibly run yours. This is for pleasure for myself and my boys to sit back and watch trains run and teach them about using their minds and their hands instead of sitting on them on the couch watching tv.
If the mainline if blocked then so be it. It will get cleared up and then we can move on. I am not worried about the technicalities of "Running a Yard" as much as I am is to display and store my cars that are not in use. I do like the yard diagram you posted, and I thank you for that, as it will work on my layout. I am using all #6 turnouts with the exception of a few #4's. I am modeling the modern era so I will have 6 axle engine's but most of the yard work (when there is some) will be 4 axle engines. I have read and been told that even the 6 axle engine's will be ok with the #4 turnouts.
The yard is open on both sides as along with another side but there are 2 sides that will butt up against a wall. My radius I had set in AnyRail was set at 22* and I have no red lines in any of my curves. I wouldnt have built my benchwork if I known that somethings wouldnt have worked.
You are correct, I have 2 sons but as of now only 1 controller so we will only be running 1 train at a time until we get more controllers and also to get used to it. It doesnt matter to them if I have a double line or not, they just want to see trains run.
I think that this thread is being taken to serious for what I want this layout to be. I want it to be fun and an experience with myself and my sons.
Not all of us are as serious as you come across Paul, but I do thank you for your input and just have a little patience with us "Newbies" learning the ropes again of Model Railroading.
I have the layout almost complete in AnyRail and I will post in the next couple of day.
Thanks for posting that Bob. I looks very nice and a very good idea of tying in all your runs.
richhotrain I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard.
Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation.
If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ?
as i had said im not posting it here.but rich was interested in seeing it so i posted a link to my thread.but i do likr you idea for a "yard" design threadcould even have designs of different types of yards looking forward to seeing it
no harn no foul
steinjr richhotrain: I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread. Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard. Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation. If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ? Smile, Stein
richhotrain: I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
Point well taken.
But, on the other hand, as I re-read the first post from antag2002, he says, "So I guess what im trying to say is even though it sounds like some of these guys just not giving you what you want to hear, it could just be you can't do it the way you see it in your mind. Having figured this out myself, I am now stuck in my design stage untill i figure out what's more important to me right now, the operations or running trains. if you want to see a pic of the yard I have drawn up let me know."
antag2002 is in the same mode as BDP, looking for help in designing a yard. So, comments that we might offer to antag2002 may be helpful to BDP or, for that manner, to many of those others following this thread.
It's all about the same thing. Efficient design of a yard to conduct prototypical operations. No?
hi BDB,
you have 2 sons, one controller yet, if you want them to look telly, let them look at the trains only. My guess is , a second controller will be available soon. You'd better think about making your layout ready for 2 trains at a time now, then doing it later. It might save you a lot of bucks.
And if you you do not want serious help, OK, so be it.
I am very patient with learning newbies. One of the issues is car-length..........i am not sure about the type of cars you like to have and run. Try to push a longer cut of modern auto-racks through your switches and curves. The 22" radius is nice for 50 feet cars from the fifties. More modern 60, 70, 80 and even 90 feet long cars require bigger radii, and appropriate switches.
This thread continues to fascinate me, and it has forced me to rethink my own existing layout design. Yesterday, I re-read my Kalmbach book on Freight Yards (Sperandeo) as well as the various likns that Paul provided in his earlier posts.
Despite the contentiousness of portions of this thread, many good points have been raised on layout design. I come away from this discussion with three principal conclusions.
First, a yard should have a drill track, or switching lead, that is longer than the longest train so as not to block the main line track with an incoming or outgoing train.
Second, one or more arrival-departure tracks should branch off the end of the drill track and should be longer than the longest train so as not to block the drill track while classifying cars.
Third, a drill track should have an escape track, a crossover, to access the main line track when the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to the main line track.
One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
On my own layout, a double mainline with crossover access from both the left and right to a double end yard, the crossovers lead onto the arrival-departure track just like in the final diagram in the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design. Beyond the ladder to the classification tracks on either side of the arrival-departure track are the left and right switching lead tracks. The one flaw on my yard design is the absence of escape tracks from the switching leads onto the mainline to get around a filled arrival-departure track that blocks access to the mainline.
Paul mentions, as a concession, that with only one or two operators, there may be no use for a dedicated switching lead in the yard. That may be true but, even with a single operator, if the switching lead is full or, vice versa, the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to and from the main line, there may be no way for the solo operator to bring another freight train into the yard for classification.
So, thoughtful yard design is essential.
The other point that I would make is that efficient yard design requires forethought as to the purpose of the yard. In BDP's initial yard plan, he had developed what one reply termed as a "stack of sidings". I couldn't agree more. When I first designed my layout, in addition to my classification yard, I included a smaller yard elsewhere on the layout. It was meant for "storage" or, maybe more appropriately, for "staging". It wound up being a "stack of sidings", a 22 foot span of crossovers and a ladder of 5 tracks, the smallest of which was only 4 feet of usable track for storing cars. I am still plagued with this rather pointless and relatively useless space that I will someday correct.
Last point. In one of the links that Paul provided, the author laments over the thoughtless use of turnouts that result in S-curves. Early on, an experienced modeler advised me against the use of turnouts aligned back to back to form a crossover followed by a turnout, resulting in a tight S-curve. As an alternative, the use of double slip turnouts can eliminate the dreaded S-curves. I did not listen and, today, I remain plagued by this design mistake as well.
Just some thoughts on yard design.
richhotrain One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
This one?
If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track.
While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead. From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track.
But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
Smile,Stein
Good read and very well thought out. Had to read it a couple of times and actually put myself on a train to simply figure out what you were saying. All is good.
I think you can really put a lot of thought into a yard and when you finally get the one you want, something else pops up. Is there a perfect yard out there? I dont know. Do I want it? Yes if applicable.
After my sons helped me with a little bit of bench work last night and after they went to bed, I did layout my track to the design Paul had posted and I modeled and it will work. I have 24* coming into the "pinwheel" (if that is what it is called) so my 6 axle engines will be ok. My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
The rest of the design of the layout is coming along nicely. I am at a stand still right now because I have been busy but I need to decide what else I am going to on the layout that the trains would need to service.
Brad
steinjr richhotrain: One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations. This one? If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track. While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead. From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track. But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Smile,Stein
richhotrain: One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
Yes, that is the diagram, and you make a great point. A train on the mainline can enter the yard throught the upper crossover directly onto the arrival-departure track, bypassing the switching lead. In effect, the arrival-departure track takes precedence over the switching lead track in the order of the track configuration.
hi Rich
you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in.
You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well.
BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout.
Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too.
BDP My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
You don't have to use switch machines. Check the Humpyard manual controls (or you can make your own similar controls) that install under the layout.
Dante
steinjr But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.
BDP My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle. Brad
Brad,
If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises. If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine.
Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be. Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration.
Thanks for the Humpyard manual control info. Will definitely take a look at them. I would only need 3 of them.
dante steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead. Dante
steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
Dante,
I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard.