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Help Designing a Yard

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BDP
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Help Designing a Yard
Posted by BDP on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:58 PM

Well I laid out my turnouts for my yard and I am not to thrilled with the outcome at all. I didnt do a track plan other than on paper, dont have the patience to learn it, and not turning out how I want it to. What I have on my plan now is turnouts right before the yard, the main line and then a siding into and access to the yard. I have #6 turnouts to basically starting the siding for the yards and then 3 #4 turnouts making up the yard and finishing with another #6 to end it. When I do this my last siding in the yard is only 4' long. My layout where the yard is measures 18' and 3'.

If it is possible I would like to have my final siding, off of my #6 to be a little longer if possible. How can I achieve this if at all possible. I am open to suggestions on how to accomplish this. I will try to post a pic of what I have drawn up later on tonight.

Thanks

Brad

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Posted by cowman on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 7:11 PM

Have you tried a compound ladder design?  Not sure how it would work, mixing frog #'s, but it might be worth a try.  I have an Atlas track planning book and with all #6's they gain 6 1/2" in length and add one more track in their example.

Don't know how a compound of all #4's would work out.  Since you have the turnouts on hand, and have a little flex track on hand, you may be able to work something out.

Good luck,

Richard 

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:57 PM

BDP
What I have on my plan now is turnouts right before the yard, the main line and then a siding into and access to the yard. I have #6 turnouts to basically starting the siding for the yards and then 3 #4 turnouts making up the yard and finishing with another #6 to end it.

Why the mix of sizes of turnouts?   Seems that would make the yard tracks at odd angles to one another without curved adjustments off of each one.

What is the purpose of the "yard" in the first place.  Knowing what it is going to be used for can be very helpful in the design.

As the prior poster noted the quickest way to save some space is to do a compound ladder.

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Posted by wm3798 on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:10 PM

A photo of the situation would be helpful.

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:24 PM

Without seeing a diagram it is hard for my tiny brain to get a handle on your situation. However  what I did to gain more yard space was to take the arrival/departure track off one side of the main loop and run them around to the ladder area on the other side where the yard is. I don't think it says anywhere that your A/D tracks can't be curved around the inside ends of the loop. 

Another way I bought more space was using curved turnouts off the mains where they curve, thus saving space for longer straight sidings. Just something to ponder.Cowboy

 

                                                                 Brent

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:34 PM

Yea I know. Gonna get one up in the morning for you guys to see what I am talking about. Not for sure if what I have down can be doable to suit my needs.

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:36 PM

Also might want to post up a photo of the area you had laid out with your turnouts.

Michael


CEO-
Mile-HI-Railroad
Prototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:57 PM

I laid it on the floor where the layout will be. I mocked up the bench work with electrical tape on the floor and laid out the track there. Trying to simulate 22" curves with flex track was impossible but I think I did a close enough job to realize I am not going to like my yard the way I have it configured now.

I will get a pic up on paper of what I want but probably not the area since the bench work isnt done yet.

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Posted by wsdimenna on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:52 PM

You may want to look here

 

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 2:58 AM

hi

several ladders

paul

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:02 AM

Guys,

Here is a pic of what I am trying to accomplish in my yard design. This is not to scale but shows what I am trying to do and with what turnouts where. If any of you have some better options I am open to those and will definitely check out those links.

Thanks

Brad

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:23 AM

Paul

Thanks for posting that. I believe what I am trying to achieve is the second yard down from the top. Does each of the squares represent 1ft? If so that is what I am trying to achieve in the short amount of distance, that way I have longer runs in the actual yard. Wondering if you could switch a couple of those #6's for #4's? I dont plan on running to many of my 6 axle engines up in there, mostly my 4 axle engines.

Thanks

Brad

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:15 AM

hi

what you want is impossible

The compound ladder is the most space saving. And yes one foot squares.

BTW what kind of yard are you designing? Staging, classification or ....................? A double sided yard is often not needed at all.

you might read this

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

paul

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:53 AM

Paul

That is what I thought when I started laying out the track on the floor. I think what I am going to do is purchase a couple of curved turnouts and then place them further back in the turns and then go from there. Although I do like the yard in your 1st post that is the second one down.

I guess what I am trying to accomplish with this yard is some staging but mostly just storage of cars on the layout. I have 1 passing line and then 1 line feeding into the yard that could be used as a main also if need be.

I guess once I get the bench work done then I can go ahead and try to figure out what I would like. Just wish I could get used to the software so I could have a better feel for what I am doing. I have tried several but just cant get the hang of them.

 

Brad

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:47 PM

Well I took a few minutes to learn the AnyRail software and was pretty easy to do. Only thing is I did the trial version and ran out at the 50 pieces limit. I did get 3/4 of it done and am posting to see if this is workable on my yard layout. Yard Layout is 18' long and 36" wide and is accessible from both sides.

I did not get the right side of the yard done but would mirror the left side. Let me know what you guys think if this is workable? I have the file but not sure if I can upload that here or not, if anyone would like to finish it for me. Really dont want to spend $60 on the subscription.

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Posted by dante on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:47 PM

Suggest you try a pinwheel.  Attached is a quick study I did some time ago (ignore the "stuff" at the bottom).

Dante

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:54 PM

Dante

Thanks for the pic. Am I correct in that the first turnout (bottom right) is a #6 left turnout followed by 2 wye"s? That is a good idea. I have several other options now also that some guys have been helping me with.

Thanks

Brad

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Posted by dante on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:21 PM

Brad,

You're welcome!  No-all 3 turnouts are #5s.  Of course you can try other sizes to see what works best for your situation.  And you might try it with curved turnouts or a combination starting with a straight.  Pinwheel was suggested to me by Cuyama; one end of my planned staging uses the latter combination.

Dante

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Thursday, January 13, 2011 5:07 AM

hi Brad

the best investment you could do is buying Track Planning For Realistic Operation by John Armstong.

And read the following link:

http://www.layoutvision.com/id40.html

Paul

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Posted by dknelson on Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:37 AM

Two observations, one general and one specific to the question.

General observation: I am of the opinion that nothing is more deceptive from a planning aspect than the use of a line to represent track (whether that line is on a track plan or is drawn on your benchwork), because track has actual width and bulk.  A line fools you into thinking all manner of things are possible that are not possible.  It makes fouling points essentially out of sight and out of mind.  You lose all perspective on just how many cars can fit on a given track, because the line makes you think your cars and locomotives are also two dimensional!   Worst of all, you adjust your lines to what it is that you would like, rather than being constrained by what can actually be done. 

Having said that, the use of a simple track planning tool or template can at least bring some discipline to the otherwise all-too-easy drawing of a line freehand.  And if you lack the patience to draw a clean usable plan and go from that to laying track, at the very least you can readily create accurate cardboard life size equivalents of track and turnouts and play around with those rather than lay track and "learn" (ouch) as you go.  Some guys make xerox copies of the turnout sizes they use and that way you can pretend you have a whole stack of turnouts.  Copies of curves and straight track can be helpful too. 

Specific observation: a double ended yard crammed in a short space (such as trying to fit within the curved ends of an oval on a 4x8, or even a 4x12) is an invitation to pure frustration because even once it is built, assuming it can be built., you quickly realize that given the fouling points on the turnouts, you actually have shockingly little usable yard space.   That shortest track might hold one car!  Worse yet, it might be too short to hold even one car.   Remember that anything less than a full car length is useless for a siding or yard track, and an additional half a  car length is of little or no practical use either. 

Let's try to think in terms of total cost of turnouts versus number of cars that can be stored.  Your proposed yard is very expensive compared to the storage capacity that is gained. 

A better option for you might be single ended yard (maybe as few as two tracks, or a third track just for cabooses if that is in your era) jutting at an angle into the middle of the layout, with a run around track at the yard lead to give you at least something of the directional flexibility that you wanted with that double ended yard, and probably with as much if not more actual car storage capacity.

Dave Nelson

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Posted by HoosierLine on Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:34 AM

One of the more useful books I've  picked up over the years is Kalmbach's "The Model Railroaders Guide To Freight Yards" by Andy Sperandeo.  It's a great reference that I use all of the time.

Lance

Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at www.lancemindheim.com

 

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Posted by odave on Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:52 AM

Brad:

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but in the Anyrail picture you posted, one problem I see is that there's no dedicated switching lead.  The swticher pulling long cuts out of the body tracks will be blocking the main.  I read up-thread that you intend this yard primarily for storage & staging, so maybe this is no big deal.  Also no big deal if you don't expect to have high traffic levels on your main.  But if you want to make this an "operating" yard and you don't want through trains to wait on the yard job, you may want to work in a dedicated switching lead.

Good luck,

--O'Dave
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Posted by steinjr on Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:44 AM

BDP

I guess what I am trying to accomplish with this yard is some staging but mostly just storage of cars on the layout. I have 1 passing line and then 1 line feeding into the yard that could be used as a main also if need be.

 Okay, Brad - the stuff above is what you say you want/need. On the other hand, what you draw, shows an engine terminal and an "inter-modal yard".

 Maybe the first thing you should read is Byron Henderson's blog post "Does this yard make me look fat?", where Byron makes the obvious, but oft ignored in web forums, point that it is not sensible to try to evaluate and optimize a yard design until you understand what purpose it is supposed to serve.

What is it really you want to be able to do with your yard?

 Will you have several people running trains in and around your yard simultaneously?

 Will one (or more) person need to run his trains into the yard while another is sorting in the yard ?

 Will most traffic be coming from the left, most from the right or about as much traffic come from both sides?

 Will the yard be building trains for many destinations simultaneously?

 How long trains will you be running into and out of the yard ?

 Will you have traffic destinations/sources in the yard - like an inter-modal terminal ?

 Will you need an engine terminal?

 If you want to use the yard as a staging yard (ie to hold whole trains waiting to make their run later), how many and how long trains do you need room for?

 And so on and so forth. Understanding what you are trying to achieve might make it easier to offer relevant advice.

Smile,
Stein

 

 

 

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 13, 2011 2:10 PM

Thanks for all the reply's guys appreciate the help. What I am trying to accomplish is a yard that is close to where I grew up that is now owned by CSX. Now obviously trying to put most of what is in the real yard to my layout is becoming somewhat difficult. The yard that is there has the one main line that is totally unblocked to allow passing trains to go by and then what I would call the second main feeds into the yard itself. This can be used for putting trains together etc. I am just trying to fit to much into the yard. I have even made it 36" from the 30" I intended it to be. It does make it hard because of the turns on the ends but I like the view of the yard having ends on them.

I did have to move the engine house from where the real one is vs where it is on my layout and I wanted a small inter model yard but didnt have the space in other parts of the layout. The yard is the toughest part of my layout. All other sidings are dead ends and wont be like this.

I have modified it from the pics that I have above. Someone on another board helped me finish it that has the full version of AnyRail. Kuddo's to him. As far as $$, most of this was purchased as Christmas presents, so not much $$$ out of my pocket. Although that will change. LOL

What I plan to do with the yard, I plan on doing a little switching, small train building and just train watching. This is to get my 2 sons involved who love to watch trains. I know the yard isnt perfect or maybe what some may want but it is as close as I can get to the yard I am trying to accomplish. I will also look into getting the books mentioned and see if I can come up with something better.

Brad

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Posted by steinjr on Thursday, January 13, 2011 3:05 PM

 Okay, so the main design goal for your layout seems to be :

Make one biggish yard, which in track configuration should look as similar as possible to some specific (but as yet not identified) yard from your childhood.

So when you ask for design help, you are not really asking for help to designing "a yard".

 You are seemingly asking for advice or suggestions on how to do selectively compress a specific prototype yard, so it can fit into your layout room.

 It would probably be easier to offer suggestions about that if we know what specific yard you were trying to model, and if you had some links to pictures or diagrams showing the prototype yard you want to model.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:56 PM

I guess I should have titled my thread: What do you think of my yard, will it work?  My bad I guess. I am wanting it to work but I know somethings in real life just cant be modeled. I did get more space, now I am up to 20' wide.

Brad

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:09 PM

BDP
Here is a pic of what I am trying to accomplish in my yard design.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/LCVaccum/yard.jpg

AH, Double ended.  Now I see.  I call this a stack of sidings.    I still stick with the thought that to save space and make the yard tracks longer it should be a compound ladder on both ends.   The other two options are to make a funky spiral type ladder through the curve on wither end, or used curved turnouts.   Either of those would all the maximum space to the yard track length.   It also means some of the yard track would be curved.

BDP
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Posted by BDP on Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:22 PM

The new design does have a few curved turnouts so it allows the double ended yard start a little earlier in the curve so it can start the sidings a little earlier and a little steeper so to say. Had a gentleman do it on AnyRail for me and it works in the software at 18' but I am allowed 2 more feet for a total of 20' wide. Even at 18' my shortest siding in the yard was still 8 ft. Enough for roughly 9-10 cars. The way it works I can have a total of 65 cars in the siding at any one time. That should be plenty for me.

The Shinohara curved turnouts are going to work great for this.

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Friday, January 14, 2011 5:12 AM

hi Brad

it would be nice if you could share "your" new design. But you are not giving information easily.

I decided not to draw anything for you for various reasons. You showed us your design in any-rail, with #2 switches,  pretty tight radii and 3,6" spacing. All issues that should have been discussed before drawing anything. Just like knowing all things you want to incorporate in your design. Add to it the footprint, reach-in problems and all other stuff Stein mentioned.(such as train length and kind of equipment)

If you had read the posting of Byron Henderson about cad to soon and even designing to soon, before you made clear what you want to achieve, chances are your layout will turn out to be fit for the dustbin.

And before spending 1000's of money on stuff, why should the creators of  a CAD-program work for free?

You found out space restrictions are making a copy of real track plan impossible. The question is what can be compressed and what can be left out. Without sufficient information you can't expect serious help; if some one else can do it without, he is not really helping.

wish you the best

Paul

 

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, January 14, 2011 7:48 AM

Brad,

If you are up to 20 feet for that double ended yard, you are in pretty good shape, and you will be able to store a lot of cars even on the shortest track.

One thing to consider is that if you are using #4 turnouts to form the ladder, why not just use #4 turnouts to enter and exit the yard as well.  That will add a little more space, albeit a little,   There is no reason to begin and end with #6 turnouts if the rest of the yard is made up of #4 turnouts.

Lance had a great suggestion regarding the book by Kalmbach - - "The Model Railroaders Guide To Freight Yards" by Andy Sperandeo.  It's a great reference that I use all of the time as well.  Somewhere in the book is a set of illustrations for designing different ladders including the pinwheel and the compund ladder.  As for the compound ladder, the  book explains and illustrates the use of small curved pieces of track between the turnouts to greatly expand usable space within the yard.  You should get this book ASAP.

Rich

Alton Junction

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