Help Designing a Yard

[richhotrain]

BDP

richhotrain:

BDP,

Nice work so far.  Looks like you learned to flip those throwbars.  True, or did they just line up the way you wanted them?

Rich

 

 I flipped them. Pretty easy like you said. I had to flip a few more than just those.

 Brad

\

Brad,

Good for you.  Learning to flip those throwbars, which is easy as you say, is an important aspect of track laying.

Rich

[BDP]

richhotrain

BDP,

Nice work so far.  Looks like you learned to flip those throwbars.  True, or did they just line up the way you wanted them?

Rich

 

I flipped them. Pretty easy like you said. I had to flip a few more than just those.

 

Brad

[steinjr]

Looking good!

Smile,
Stein

 

[richhotrain]

BDP,

Nice work so far.  Looks like you learned to flip those throwbars.  True, or did they just line up the way you wanted them?

Rich

[BDP]

Paulus Jas

Hi,

spacing is the distance between center-lines; i am glad you do not use 2 inch spacing.....but 2,5; no long cars colliding. I gave you the appropriate NMRA information.

Looks great BTW

Paul

 

Thanks Paul appreciate the kind words. I am going 2.5" on all center to center track whether it is straight or curved. I have fat fingers, so that will allow me to get to each track with out knocking over any other trains.

Thanks again for helping me with the Pinwheel.

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

Hi,

spacing is the distance between center-lines; i am glad you do not use 2 inch spacing.....but 2,5; no long cars colliding. I gave you the appropriate NMRA information.

Looks great BTW

Paul

[BDP]

Motley

That looks really nice. And that is exactly how my yard looks.

That sure is a bright green paint on the foam.

 

Thanks Motley. Actually  it is 1/2" plywood. I painted it mainly to kinda seal the wood up so it wont soak up to much humidity in the summer time even though I run a dehumidifier. Just a tip a painter told me. The top will all be covered with ground scenery, roads, buildings etc, so you wont see any of it.

[Motley]

That looks really nice. And that is exactly how my yard looks.

That sure is a bright green paint on the foam.

[BDP]

Well I started to layout my track to mark it for the roadbed. Just wanted to post a pic of the pinwheel that was suggested earlier in the thread by Paul. It was tough at first to get it right but it worked out great and my autorack looks good maneuvering the curves into the yard.

[BDP]

Paulus Jas

hi

Your spacing does not seem to be enough.

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html

Pushing auto racks might create some nasty surprises.

Paul

 

Paul

You say I dont have enough room, can you be more specific as to what you mean applying it to my layout and where instead of being general in your statement? I used that guide and thought I left enough room to accommodate this. Also how can you tell with that pic that has been re-sized vs what I can zoom in on in AnyRail?

 

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

hi

Your spacing does not seem to be enough.

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html

Pushing auto racks might create some nasty surprises.

Paul

[BDP]

Sorry for the delay in responding, but been extremely busy with other things than the layout.

I think I have finalized my layout and I feel happy about it. Going to serve my needs for now. I maybe in over my head with the size of it but I wanted to go all out. My regret it but hope not. I have to finish my bench work which is almost done, just need to secure the top plywood pieces.

Here is what I have for a finished product. I had to make a few minor changes because I went with 32" radius on the outer main line and then 30" radius on the inner main line. I did this to accommodate 89' auto racks and box cars. Didnt want it looking to funny going around curves on my 24* and 22* curves. All of my curves are no less than 22* which I am happy with.

Thanks for all the help and even though touchy at times I appreciate the advice.

Brad

[richhotrain]

As I mentioned previously, this thread has really caused me to look deeper into the whole subject of prototypical freight yard operation.

In addition to the great links already provided on this thread to some excellent reference material, I came across a digital download from Kalmbach Publications for $5.95 that provides a compilation of 16 prior articles from Trains Magazine about freight yards.  Here is the link:

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/trpdf037.html

This digital download, in the form of a PDF document, includes a host of wonderful photos and diagrams of freight yards over the past 75 years.  Of particular interest to me in this digital download is a 2-part series from the June and July 2002 editions of Trains Magazine that covers the design of a prototypical freight yard.

I highly recommend this digital download to all who are interested in designing a prototypical freight yard.

Rich

 

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/trpdf037.html

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

sufficient arrival-tracks are giving the dispatcher an easy life; his road is not blocked by waiting trains. At the very same time it would be great for the switch-master to have tracks where cars can wait till departure time, without fouling classification.  Extra bowl tracks or a sufficient number of departure tracks are often needed to keep yard operation flu-ed.

Real yards are gigantic; what to model? Using classification tracks as departure tracks is one trick. Spares the yard goat some extra moves too. David Barrow always adds an extra cross over between the main and switch lead to let escape departing trains directly from the classification tracks. 

 

[richhotrain]

Paulus Jas

hi

page 28 in Freight Yards by Andy Sperandeo and  page 26 in Track Planning For Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

Paul

Paul,

It is interesting to note that John Armstrong makes no mention of an arrival/departure track in his book.  He does mention "receiving" tracks and yards and "departure" tracks and yards.  He more or less relies on the longest classification track to serve in that capacity. 

He places a lot of stress on the switching lead track.  As he notes, "The key item for efficient operation is the switching lead clear of the main track". 

In addition to the switch lead track, Armstrong also stresses the use of a thoroughfare track and a separate caboose track as vital to the efficient operation of the yard.

While Andy Sperandeo, in his more recent book, also stresses the importance of the switching lead track, the thoroughfare track and the separate caboose track, he continually stresses the need for a separate arrival/departure track for efficient yard operation.

Rich

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi brad

i had 2 operating ideas in my mind. A single track mode and a double track mode when the boys want do lap-running.

Paul

[BDP]

richhotrain

 

BDP:

 

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

 

 

Brad,

No, there are no reverse loops.  Would you like us to create one?  LOL.

By now, you are probably tired of suggestions, but that never stopped me.   If you truly want a double mainline, you need to rethink part of your latest track plan.  That now infamous switching lead, the inner track running up the left side, is really not a mainline track.  So, those two crossovers at the top of the track plan are connecting the switching lead track to the main line, a single track.  That's why you are having trouble on the upper right, coming around that pinwheel.  And the continuation of that inner track coming up from the bottom right is unnecessary, shoulda left it like it was before. 

What you need to do to create a continuous double mainline is to add an outermost track all around the layout with crossovers at appropriate spots (1)  to get from the outer mainline track to the inner mainline track to reach the switching lead track on the left side and (2) to get from the inner mainline track to the outer mainline track from the switching lead track on the right side. 

Rich

P.S. Any luck flipping those throwbars?

Rich

You are correct is saying that it really isnt a dedicated double main line layout. Although I kinda like this yard vs what I had before. That space in the upper right hand corner where the pinwheel is I can fill that in with scenery or something else. For the short future the boys will be having plenty of help from me running trains. I do at sometime in the future plan to get a second controller but one will do for now. I think that short run of just 1 main line will be ok. I can change it later if need be. That will give me practice on tearing something out and adding something different. LOL

As far as the throwbars I havent looked at them since the other night. I wanted to get more of the bench work done before my sons went to bed. I got all of it framed. Just need to put in my 16"  supports in and then prime and then paint it. I am painting it to keep the wood from absorbing moisture in the summer causing the wood to warp. A painter buddy I know told me that it will help from warping to much. He said some may but most shouldnt. But I will look at them this weekend and see what I can do.

 

Brad

[richhotrain]

BDP

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

Brad,

No, there are no reverse loops.  Would you like us to create one?  LOL.

By now, you are probably tired of suggestions, but that never stopped me.   If you truly want a double mainline, you need to rethink part of your latest track plan.  That now infamous switching lead, the inner track running up the left side, is really not a mainline track.  So, those two crossovers at the top of the track plan are connecting the switching lead track to the main line, a single track.  That's why you are having trouble on the upper right, coming around that pinwheel.  And the continuation of that inner track coming up from the bottom right is unnecessary, shoulda left it like it was before. 

What you need to do to create a continuous double mainline is to add an outermost track all around the layout with crossovers at appropriate spots (1)  to get from the outer mainline track to the inner mainline track to reach the switching lead track on the left side and (2) to get from the inner mainline track to the outer mainline track from the switching lead track on the right side. 

Rich

P.S. Any luck flipping those throwbars?

[BDP]

Paulus Jas

hi Brad,

my mistake, i thought the top and bottom were against a wall.

I would flip the design, the classification yard against the wall, the staging yard accessible at the open side of the room.

Paul

 

Paul

That is ok. I made my yard bench work 36" because I knew I could access it from both sides. All other sides are 30" because with my bench work height that is about the max for me reaching over the layout only being 5'8" tall. I appreciate the work that you did and the results in the short amount of time you did it.

 

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

hi Brad,

my mistake, i thought the top and bottom were against a wall.

I would flip the design, the classification yard against the wall, the staging yard accessible at the open side of the room.

Paul

[BDP]

Well I think this is pretty much all I am planning to do now. I am going to go through the Walters book and see if there is anything that I want that is in the book that I need rail service to. It is about 300' of track (have to get a few more pieces) and 31 turnouts. Let me know what you guys think.

I am using DCC so I dont think that there are any reverse loops anywhere. Was trying to stay away from that. LOL

[BDP]

Paulus Jas

hi brad

just a vision, two trains can do lap running at the same time, a pretty short single track section over the lift-out remains. Loads of switching possibilities; switching the dock can be done completely independent from main line running.

BTW the second main is in reality the yard lead, used differently if needed.

The radius of the main is 30", IMAO a better choice for modern equipment.

The layout size is 20 x 12

Paul

 

Paul

 

I really like that layout. It seems to flow nicely together. I like the lift out option you have put in. In your diagram would the staging be hidden or would it be open. I guess what I mean about that is would there be a back drop between the staging yard and the rest of the layout. If there is then it would be a problem for me to possibly access this because I would put that part of the layout against the wall. If there is not then it would be ok.

I dont mind ducking under mine right now because I am on 5'8" tall so it isnt much for me to duck under. Plus I duck under things all the time at work so I am kinda used to it.

As I was working on getting a double mainline implemented I came to the problem on the upper right of my layout and trying to tie in the second mainline into the pinwheel on the right side of the yard. I thought well I have to put in a switch right before the yard and at that short point there is only going to be 1 mainline run. Then I see you have the single main for the lift out and that it is ok to have a short run of a single main as long as it is signaled right for the trains.

I will finish up my layout and see what you guys think.

Brad

[richhotrain]

Paul,

Nice use of space on that latest diagram.

I really like the lift out.  To me, that makes more sense than the duckunder.  Only a single track to deal with thanks to the creation of the peninsula.  Nice.

I also like the addition of the staging area - - too much space wasted at the bottom in the original plan.

The longer switcher lead track solves the blocking problem though I question whether #8 turnouts are really needed.

The river and the interchange are interesting additions - - added visual interest.  We will see if BDP likes either of those ideas.

This proposed layout plan will be a challenge for BDP's two sons.  They may be too young to be able to cope with some of the nuances, but they can always grow into it.  If it were my layout, I would stick with the concept of a true double mainline.  That will permit the kids to each operate their own train on their own track without adult intervention.

But, hey, who asked me?  It will be interesting to get Brad's response.

Rich

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi brad

just a vision, two trains can do lap running at the same time, a pretty short single track section over the lift-out remains. Loads of switching possibilities; switching the dock can be done completely independent from main line running.

BTW the second main is in reality the yard lead, used differently if needed.

The radius of the main is 30", IMAO a better choice for modern equipment.

The layout size is 20 x 12

Paul

[BDP]

richhotrain

Brad,

Just out of curiosity, are you operating in DC or DCC?

Rich

 

Rich

I will be operating the layout in DCC. I have a Digitrax Super Empire Builder Extra on order and just waiting for it to come in. It has a 5 amp power supply. I did have the MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 squared but it was only 3 amps. Plus a couple of guys I know have Digitrax, so that way if I have questions I can give them a shout.

I plan on breaking it down into 2 divisions right now but possibly a 3rd, havent decided yet..

 

Brad

[richhotrain]

Brad,

Just out of curiosity, are you operating in DC or DCC?

Rich

[richhotrain]

BDP

Rich

I will look at the turnouts again and see what I can do. If you say that it can be done I will give it a shot. Yes the black area is the walk around area in the layout. I wanted to do some sort of lift out but I didnt know where to put it and I wanted the layout to look good so I figured I can just duck under for now, then when I get older I can just get a stool with wheels on it and roll under it. LOL.

I am working on making the whole layout a double main track. I figured I will just go ahead and do it and get it over with. I will post pics sometime tomorrow or later on tonight if I have time.

Brad

Brad,

Just take your time and use a tiny screwdriver or the dull side of the blade on an Exacto knife. Lift up the plastic tab and move the metal point away. Then, lift up the other plastic tab and move thst metal point away. Then, remove the throwbar and replace it in the opposite direction and reapply the tabs.  A guy at the LHS showed me that some years ago, and I have always been grateful for the tip.

On your other point, it you can pull it off, by all means set up the layout as a double mainline.  Each one of your sons can have his own track, and you can work the yard.  My entire layout is a double mainline, and it is a blast to operate.  Maybe your wife can be the yard master.  

Rich

 

[BDP]

richhotrain

 

BDP:

 

 

richhotrain:

 

BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

 

 

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 Brad

 

 

Brad,

If you take a close look at the throwbar portion between the two rails, there are two plastic tabs holding down the metal points.  Those plastic tabs can be carefully and gently lifted out of position with a small screwdriver or the dull side of an Exacto knife blade.  Once lifted out of position, free of the metal points, the plastic throwbar can be reversed so that you have room to install a manual ground throw.  I never met a throwbar that could not be reversed, so consider giving it a try.  Once the throwbar is reversed, simply press the plastic tabs down on the metal points once again.

Rich

Rich

I will look at the turnouts again and see what I can do. If you say that it can be done I will give it a shot. Yes the black area is the walk around area in the layout. I wanted to do some sort of lift out but I didnt know where to put it and I wanted the layout to look good so I figured I can just duck under for now, then when I get older I can just get a stool with wheels on it and roll under it. LOL.

I am working on making the whole layout a double main track. I figured I will just go ahead and do it and get it over with. I will post pics sometime tomorrow or later on tonight if I have time.

 

Brad

[richhotrain]

Paulus Jas

hi

about the engine pocket:

Paul

Duh !   I guess that I should have thought about that a second or too longer.  LOL  Thank you, sir.

Rich

[richhotrain]

BDP

richhotrain:

 

BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

 

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 Brad

Brad,

If you take a close look at the throwbar portion between the two rails, there are two plastic tabs holding down the metal points.  Those plastic tabs can be carefully and gently lifted out of position with a small screwdriver or the dull side of an Exacto knife blade.  Once lifted out of position, free of the metal points, the plastic throwbar can be reversed so that you have room to install a manual ground throw.  I never met a throwbar that could not be reversed, so consider giving it a try.  Once the throwbar is reversed, simply press the plastic tabs down on the metal points once again.

Rich

[richhotrain]

BDP

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

 

Brad,

So, the dark area is your interior aisle reached by ducking under the top or right side of the layout?

Rich

 

[BDP]

richhotrain

 

BDP:

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

 

 

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.

 

Brad

[richhotrain]

BDP

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner.

As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in.

Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.

 

Brad,

I'm betting that Paul wants that switching lead to come all the way down to the bottom left corner even if that requires a right hand curved turnout to make the connection to the main line.  Then the tracks to the ethanol plant could diverge right after the turnout from the main line that would form the switching lead.  That would make sense in order to make your switching lead longer than your longest train so as not to block the main line.

Rich

[BDP]

Paulus Jas

hi

about the engine pocket:

hi Brad;

not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station.

Beside some aesthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.

IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Paul

On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.

I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner.

As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in.

Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi

about the engine pocket:

hi Brad;

not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station.

Beside some esthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.

IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom.

Paul

 

 

 

 

[BDP]

Well here is the vast majority of my layout. I am still contemplating putting in a spur or 2 on the bottom leading to some industry but what that is I am not for sure yet. I dont want to put the Inter Model yard there because I am planning a small town and maybe some farm houses.

In this Layout I did what Paul had posted out of the magazine. Like I said in my earlier post, I dont think my Caboose ground throws will work with this unless I need to add a short piece of track in between the diverging route and main line connections on the turnouts. I did move the turnout on the left down more to allow more room in and out of the yard.

 

In this one I went ahead and added a Shinohara curved turnout to connect to one of the sidings just to add another run around if needed.

Let me know what you think.

Brad

[steinjr]

richhotrain

 

dante:

 

 

steinjr:

 

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

 

 

Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks?  The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.

Dante

 

 

Dante,

I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard.

Rich

 Sorry - Rich is right. I must somehow have dropped a "yard" there - I meant the "third double ended yard track" (i.e. not counting the main). Track no 4 from the top of the drawing.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[richhotrain]

Paulus Jas

hi Rich

you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in.

You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well.

BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout.

Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too.

Paul

 

Paul,

You mention that a switcher pocket could be added to ladder E as well.  What would be the track configuration necessary to accomplish this pocket?

Rich

[richhotrain]

BDP

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

Brad,

What brand of turnouts are you using?

Rich

[BDP]

richhotrain

 

BDP:

 

My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.

Brad

 

 

Brad,

If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises.  If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine.

Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be.  Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration.

Rich

 

Rich

I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.

[richhotrain]

dante

steinjr:

 

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

 

Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks?  The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.

Dante

Dante,

I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard.

Rich

[BDP]

Thanks for the Humpyard manual control info. Will definitely take a look at them. I would only need 3 of them.

[richhotrain]

BDP

My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.

Brad

Brad,

If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises.  If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine.

Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be.  Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration.

Rich

[dante]

steinjr

 

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks?  The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.

Dante

[dante]

BDP

My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.

You don't have to use switch machines.  Check the Humpyard manual controls (or you can make your own similar controls) that install under the layout.

Dante

[Paulus Jas]

hi Rich

you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in.

You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well.

BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout.

Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too.

Paul

 

 

[richhotrain]

steinjr

richhotrain:

One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track.  In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track.  However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track.  That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram.  That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations. 

 

 This one?

 

If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track.

 While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead.  From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track.

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

Smile,
Stein

 

Stein,

Yes, that is the diagram, and you make a great point.  A train on the mainline can enter the yard throught the upper crossover directly onto the arrival-departure track, bypassing the switching lead.  In effect, the arrival-departure track takes precedence over the switching lead track in the order of the track configuration.

Rich

[BDP]

Rich

Good read and very well thought out. Had to read it a couple of times and actually put myself on a train to simply figure out what you were saying. All is good.

I think you can really put a lot of thought into a yard and when you finally get the one you want, something else pops up. Is there a perfect yard out there? I dont know. Do I want it? Yes if applicable.

After my sons helped me with a little bit of bench work last night and after they went to bed, I did layout my track to the design Paul had posted and I modeled and it will work. I have 24* coming into the "pinwheel" (if that is what it is called) so my 6 axle engines will be ok. My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.

The rest of the design of the layout is coming along nicely. I am at a stand still right now because I have been busy but I need to decide what else I am going to on the layout that the trains would need to service.

 

Brad

[steinjr]

richhotrain

One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track.  In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track.  However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track.  That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram.  That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations. 

 This one?

 

If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track.

 While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead.  From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track.

 But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.

Smile,
Stein

 

[richhotrain]

This thread continues to fascinate me, and it has forced me to rethink my own existing layout design.  Yesterday, I re-read my Kalmbach book on Freight Yards (Sperandeo) as well as the various likns that Paul provided in his earlier posts.

Despite the contentiousness of portions of this thread, many good points have been raised on layout design.  I come away from this discussion with three principal conclusions.

First, a yard should have a drill track, or switching lead, that is longer than the longest train so as not to block the main line track with an incoming or outgoing train.

Second, one or more arrival-departure tracks should branch off the end of the drill track and should be longer than the longest train so as not to block the drill track while classifying cars.

Third, a drill track should have an escape track, a crossover, to access the main line track when the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to the main line track.

One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track.  In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track.  However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track.  That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram.  That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations. 

On my own layout, a double mainline with crossover access from both the left and right  to a double end yard, the crossovers lead onto the arrival-departure track just like in the final diagram in the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design.  Beyond the ladder to the classification tracks on either side of the arrival-departure track are the left and right switching lead tracks.  The one flaw on my yard design is the absence of escape tracks from the switching leads onto the mainline to get around a filled arrival-departure track that blocks access to the mainline.

Paul mentions, as a concession, that with only one or two operators, there may be no use for a dedicated switching lead in the yard.  That may be true but, even with a single operator, if the switching lead is full or, vice versa, the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to and from the main line, there may be no way for the solo operator to bring another freight train into the yard for classification.

So, thoughtful yard design is essential.

The other point that I would make is that efficient yard design requires forethought as to the purpose of the yard.  In BDP's initial yard plan, he had developed what one reply termed as a "stack of sidings".  I couldn't agree more.  When I first designed my layout, in addition to my classification yard, I included a smaller yard elsewhere on the layout.  It was meant for "storage" or, maybe more appropriately, for "staging".  It wound up being a "stack of sidings", a 22 foot span of crossovers and a ladder of 5 tracks, the smallest of which was only 4 feet of usable track for storing cars.  I am still plagued with this rather pointless and relatively useless space that I will someday correct.

Last point.  In one of the links that Paul provided, the author laments over the thoughtless use of turnouts that result in S-curves.  Early on, an experienced modeler advised me against the use of turnouts aligned back to back to form a crossover followed by a turnout, resulting in a tight S-curve.  As an alternative, the use of double slip turnouts can eliminate the dreaded S-curves.  I did not listen and, today, I remain plagued by this design mistake as well.

Just some thoughts on yard design.

Rich

[Paulus Jas]

hi BDB,

you have 2 sons, one controller yet, if you want them to look telly, let them look at the trains only. My guess is , a second controller will be available soon. You'd better think about making your layout ready for 2 trains at a time now, then doing it later. It might save you a lot of bucks.

And if you you do not want serious help, OK, so be it.

I am very patient with learning newbies.  One of the issues is car-length..........i am not sure about  the type of cars you like to have and run. Try to push a longer cut of modern auto-racks through your switches and curves. The 22" radius is nice for 50 feet cars from the fifties. More modern 60, 70, 80 and even 90 feet long cars require bigger radii, and appropriate switches.  

Paul 

 

 

[richhotrain]

steinjr

richhotrain:

 

I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread.  He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.

 

 Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard.

 Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation.

 If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ?

 Smile,
 Stein

Stein,

Point well taken.

But, on the other hand, as I re-read the first post from antag2002, he says, "So I guess what im trying to say is even though it sounds like some of these guys just not giving you what you want to hear, it could just be you can't do it the way you see it in your mind.  Having figured this out myself, I am now stuck in my design stage untill i figure out what's more important to me right now, the operations or running trains.  if you want to see a pic of the yard I have drawn up let me know."

antag2002 is in the same mode as BDP, looking for help in designing a yard.  So, comments that we might offer to antag2002 may be helpful to BDP or, for that manner, to many of those others following this thread.

It's all about the same thing.  Efficient design of a yard to conduct prototypical operations.  No?

Rich

 

[Antag2002]

no harn no foul

[Antag2002]

as i had said im not posting it here.

but rich was interested in seeing it so i posted a link to my thread.

but i do likr you idea for a "yard" design thread
could even have designs of different types of yards
looking forward to seeing it

[steinjr]

richhotrain

 

I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread.  He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.

 Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard.

 Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation.

 If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[BDP]

Thanks for posting that Bob. I looks very nice and a very good idea of tying in all your runs.

[BDP]

I guess I dont know why you have to be so harsh. Sorry that I didnt give you the specifics on what my layout is going to be like until a few post above. I dont plan on running this like a real railroad like you seem to possibly run yours. This is for pleasure for myself and my boys to sit back and watch trains run and teach them about using their minds and their hands instead of sitting on them on the couch watching tv.

If the mainline if blocked then so be it. It will get cleared up and then we can move on. I am not worried about the technicalities of "Running a Yard" as much as I am is to display and store my cars that are not in use. I do like the yard diagram you posted, and I thank you for that, as it will work on my layout. I am using all #6 turnouts with the exception of a few #4's. I am modeling the modern era so I will have 6 axle engine's but most of the yard work (when there is some) will be 4 axle engines. I have read and been told that even the 6 axle engine's will be ok with the #4 turnouts.

The yard is open on both sides as along with another side but there are 2 sides that will butt up against a wall. My radius I had set in AnyRail was set at 22* and I have no red lines in any of my curves. I wouldnt have built my benchwork if I known that somethings wouldnt have worked.

You are correct, I have 2 sons but as of now only 1 controller so we will only be running 1 train at a time until we get more controllers and also to get used to it. It doesnt matter to them if I have a double line or not, they just want to see trains run.

I think that this thread is being taken to serious for what I want this layout to be. I want it to be fun and an experience with myself and my sons.

Not all of us are as serious as you come across Paul, but I do thank you for your input and just have a little patience with us "Newbies" learning the ropes again of Model Railroading.

I have the layout almost complete in AnyRail and I  will post in the next couple of day.

[richhotrain]

steinjr

Antag2002:

how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?

 

 Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

Stein,

I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread.  He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.

Rich

[Antag2002]

hi no i wasnt planning on hi jacking this thread. i use photo bucket just didnt think about converting it over. and i have a thread called new layout help  http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/183399.aspx
I was just posting here to give my 2 cents on yard design.

 

[steinjr]

Antag2002

how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?

 Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one?

 To upload an image showing your yard, convert the plan to an image (a jpg), and upload the jpg to some photo hosting sport (e.g. photobucket) .

 You can do that either by exporting the plan as an image (if Anyrail has a function for that), or by taking a screen shot of your screen.

 How to do this has been described a couple of hundred times in various posts. Search for "how to upload pictures" or "photobucket" or variants of that.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[Antag2002]

how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?

 

[richhotrain]

HHPATH56

Hi Brad, The following photos show my 7 track compound turnouts which feed from two curved drill track turnouts from my mainline. By using double-slip switches one can have access to all 7 tracks without having the switcher have to tie up the mainline. By having the mainline overpass the yard, one can have 7 equal length tracks in the yard. All the tracks are accessible to each other, and the long drill tracks allow one to form long consists within the yard. Bob

Very nice.

I also like that bascule bridge in the background.  Can you post a close up shot?

You better get a track crew to clean up after that tornado that came through your yard.   LOL

Rich

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

if you want to see a pic of the yard i have drawn up let me know

By all means, post it.  We would love to see a photo of your yard.

[Antag2002]

Please bare in mind i am new to this as well, I am currently working on planning a layout myself for operations. I have come to a realization through reading as much as i can that if i want my longest train to be comprized of 10 cars of a 6" avg length each the space i will need for a proper classification yard with all the fixins i will need around 17' X 2' if you are using all # 6 turnouts

this will be the arrangment for the max amount of cars per ladder rung
Shortest = 42" 7 cars
                   54" 9 cars
                    66" 11 cars
                   78" 13 cars
                   90" 15 cars

so that would give room for 55 cars to be stored and remmmber i said classification yard so cut that near half  to make room to work the trains without frustration so your lookin at around 25 to 26 cars give or take for busy times. with the space ate up by but not used by the actual classification yard would leave room to make an engine servicing area.

SO i guess what im trying to say is even tho it sounds like some of these guys just not giving you what you want to hear it could just be you cant do it the way you see it in your mind.

having figured this out myself i am now stuck im my design stage untill i figure out whats more important to me right now the operations or running trains

if you want to see a pic of the yard i have drawn up let me know

Cheers

[HHPATH56]

Hi Brad, The following photos show my 7 track compound turnouts which feed from two curved drill track turnouts from my mainline. By using double-slip switches one can have access to all 7 tracks without having the switcher have to tie up the mainline. By having the mainline overpass the yard, one can have 7 equal length tracks in the yard. All the tracks are accessible to each other, and the long drill tracks allow one to form long consists within the yard. Bob

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

yes it might sound harsh.................

but i am rather serious, IMAO Brad is not really giving the information asked...and i am not sure his investment will result in a great layout.

The yard design he took, is needed if switching the yard is blocking mainline traffic. If he has a to short drill track he will still be blocking the main  often; it is not cherry picking.

I talked about possible surprises, if he is not really specific about the cars and engines he will use, radii and switch-numbers might be to small. Not only in the yard; he is building bench-work already, i have no idea at all about the remainder of his layout and the pin-wheel arrangement takes additional width, does he have that? Apparently yes, though it would be nice to know before going to the drawing board

 I do not know if his layout is build against walls, it was asked him too BTW, his tracks are to close to it; and sorry Brad, this is not meant to drive you away........

And one of the issues is the number of operators; i understood he has two sons, they might prefer a double track main, so both can run a train. I love a very short single track section; to keep them awake and let them experience a lot of near collisions. When one of them wants to do some yard work, the other can use the free second main; no use for dedicated yard-lead..............

I hope you understand why all these questions were asked........without knowing your situation and aims i can only give some general information.

Paul

[BIG JERR]

Looking good Brad,Mine will be very similar except no intermodel track(50s)and it 16x2 instead of 20x3...I"ll watching your progress..Jerry

[richhotrain]

Paulus Jas

hi Brad

a minor tweak?  why not simply post the new design, your playing hide and seek. But more important however, the idea about the design was not mine at all. It's the way to go when the yard switcher and mainline trains have to operate independent of each other, not necessary at all if only one train at a time is run, or the second train is on another part of your layout for quite some time.

And i told you before, Stein too, without knowing more about your layout any real discussion is impossible.

If things are going over your head, just ask and answer to questions asked.

BTW be prepared for some surprises,   

paul 

 

Paul,

Sorry, but I think you are being a bit harsh.  It seems to me that BDP has been pretty forthcoming with what he is trying to do and, in fact has essentially adopted your plan.  True, as Stein pointed out, it may not be a formal double mainline but we all get the basic idea.  And, yes, the resulting plan still have the shortcoming of the switching lead probably being too short.  But hey, what about selective compresssion?

Your help has been invaluable to not only BDP but to the rest of us.  This has been an extremely informative and useful thread.  I just don't want to see BDP get turned off because of the need to be more familiar with yard operation and terminology.  After all, that is the title of the thread, Help Designing a Yard.

Rich

[BDP]

Paul

I didnt make that minor tweak at all. I got it to work like the design you posted.

Sorry I havent given all the info about my layout. It is modern era modeled in the midwest with grain facilities, ethanol plant, and other features in the midwest. Basically I wanted my yard to store cars, so I wouldnt have to take them on and off, and be able to do some switching. I have been out of model railroading for over 20 years so I am just getting used to the terminology again, so sorry for not offering more.

I am still putting things in AnyRail for the layout but I am not done. Between family and trying to build bench work and officiating High School Basketball I dont get much done other than at work. I have a job that has seasonal busy times and other times it is slow, so that allows me to work on this at work.

Here is a pic of what I have done so far. I have the yard done. I implemented the yard Paul posted and added a longer spur on the left side for longer trains if need be. I put the inter model yard where it is because that is really the only other place I can put it because I dont have room anywhere else on the layout but I wanted an inter model yard so that is where it goes. I know it may not be practical  but will work for me.

So this is what I have now.

[Paulus Jas]

hi Brad

a minor tweak?  why not simply post the new design, your playing hide and seek. But more important however, the idea about the design was not mine at all. It's the way to go when the yard switcher and mainline trains have to operate independent of each other, not necessary at all if only one train at a time is run, or the second train is on another part of your layout for quite some time.

And i told you before, Stein too, without knowing more about your layout any real discussion is impossible.

If things are going over your head, just ask and answer to questions asked.

BTW be prepared for some surprises,   

paul 

 

[BDP]

Rich

Thanks, I dont think I could say it any better. I have never worked or even known anyone to work in a switching yard and my railroad terminology is not very good, so trying to implement some of the things that are said just goes over my head.

As far as the yard goes, I did get the diagram that Paul posted to work with 1 minor tweak and it looks good and I am going to implement it into my layout.

I have about 60% of my bench work completed, so I need to finish that. Then I need to paint it to help hold out the moisture to keep warping to a very minimum and then I will be laying out my track to make sure what I have in my AnyRail program will work in the Layout.

Thanks for all the info and sorry if I frustrated some along the way but sometimes things dont come as easy to one as they do for another.

Brad

[richhotrain]

I do think that the OP is doing his homework in one regard, and that is using track software to plan his layout.  But, like many of us, BDP may be struggling with terminology and the very nature of yard planning.  For example, in my eariler diagram, I referred to one track as my switching lead when, in fact, it is probably an arrival/departure track, although in the past I have also been told that it is not even a true A/D track. 

If, like me, one has never worked in a classification or staging yard, it is difficult to understand the logistics of separate tracks, and connecting tracks, for operational purposes.

Try as I may, the purpose of a drill track, switching lead, approach and departure track, and the interaction of these tracks with the staging and classification tracks is hard to grasp and remember.

This link that Paul posted

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

is very helpful, and so is the Kalmbach book on freight yards, but reading about it and putting it into actual operation on a layout are two very different things.

Rich

[Hamltnblue]

[BDP]

I am doing myself a favor and planning it out on paper and in AnyRail. I have my version that I posted and I am implementing the one Paul posted. I will probably go with the one Paul has posted and just add a couple more of storage track.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Brad

[BDP]

Thanks for the kind words.. Much appreciated.

[ef3 yellowjacket]

Do yourself a favour:  Plan it out!  The worst thing anyone can do is approach a potential project with a gleam in their eye and nothing more.  Asf yourself what is it you are trying to accomplish, what features you wold like, and then start drawing it out.  Pencils and paper are a lot cheaper than man-hours and wasted materials.

EF-3 Yellowjacket

[steinjr]

BDP

So the turnouts in the curves are they curved turnouts or are they straight? I did take your advice and moved my turnouts into the yard on both ends down to allow more room for possible train building. But I didnt put crossovers from the #1 main line to the #2 main line. I didnt because I plan on using the #1 for any passing freight and that I could tie up the #2 main with any other trains. 

Right now I have 18 turnouts in my yard and the pic you posted has 12. If I keep my yard I would have to order only 4 more turnouts and 2 of those are the curved turnouts so I wouldnt be out much $$ if I kept mine, but I may try to put your in AnyRail and see what happens.

 Brad --

 It is your layout. If you so desire, you obviously can rush out and buy even more switches and proceed to lay track, without spend any more time and effort on understanding yard design.

 Me, I would recommend perhaps spending a little more time and effort on actually reading and trying to understand/apply the advice you are given.

 Paul's drawing says, fairly clearly, "all switches are #6s". He later specified Atlas #6. That, perhaps surprisingly , apparently was supposed to mean that all turnouts are straight, Atlas #6 turnouts. Not "some turnouts in this plan are curved".

 Is the thing you are not understanding how you can use straight turnouts to make a pinwheel ladder?

 Like this:

 

The purpose of the crossovers from the main to the yard in Paul's suggestion has been explained to you. You seemingly still have not quite understood the significance of what you have been told.

You keep talking about a #1 main and #2 main. But every sketch you have posted seemingly shows something else - one track (presumably a main) running along the outer edge of the layout segment below, with a *siding* - not a second main - coming off that track at far left and far right:

 Do you have a not drawn #1 main on the outside of the outermost one shown in every sketch you have posted, or is your "#2 main" the double ended siding branching off from the outermost track in the sketch above ?

Stein

 

 

[BDP]

AnyRail works great for me. I was hesitant to pay for it, but in the end I am glad I did that way I know what should work with my layout and bench work.

Brad

[BDP]

Paul

So the turnouts in the curves are they curved turnouts or are they straight? I did take your advice and moved my turnouts into the yard on both ends down to allow more room for possible train building. But I didnt put crossovers from the #1 main line to the #2 main line. I didnt because I plan on using the #1 for any passing freight and that I could tie up the #2 main with any other trains. 

Right now I have 18 turnouts in my yard and the pic you posted has 12. If I keep my yard I would have to order only 4 more turnouts and 2 of those are the curved turnouts so I wouldnt be out much $$ if I kept mine, but I may try to put your in AnyRail and see what happens.

Brad

[BIG JERR]

You guys are allright ,thanks lots a help..Jerry

[steinjr]

Paulus Jas

hi Jerry

you have to foul the main, the cross-over i added from the yard-lead to the main will help a lot speeding up things.

 Not only that - there are also several other good idea for making efficient switching yards shown on Paul's track plan.

 Paul pointed out the crossover that allows access from the switching lead to the main.

 The other crossover up there at far top left makes it possible to have train arriving from or departing towards the left on the main without stopping classification, since that crossover allows trains from the main to come into or out of the A/D tracks without crossing over the switching lead.

 One of the class tracks is double ended - so it can also function as a third A/D track or a runaround when necessary.

 Only two changes I would have made are:

 1) Longer lead on the left - as Paul pointed out. Allows switching longer cuts of cars without fouling the main.

 2) Making a "mini lead" at the far right end of the yard - long enough to hold an engine consist plus maybe a caboose/shoving platform (if cabooses or shoving platforms are used on this layout), without fouling the main. Would  allow engines consists to cut off and run around without interfering with the main.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[steinjr]

BIG JERR

 

 

Stein; Im not trying to highjack,but you raise a question in me with "fouling the main" ,I do get the reason an importance ,but what if a major manufacfuer wanted to build a factory just north of Brads yard ,say where the backwall is . how does Brads railroad pick-up and deliver to this factory without "fouling the main" or atleast crossing it from the Yard ?

They would have to pull out on the main to serve industries along the back wall there. It is not necessarily a problem to use the main for switching -in situations where there isn't a lot of traffic on the main.

  You can e.g. do a yard like this:

 

 This H0 scale plan segment is inspired by tracks in the small Texas town of Shiner in 1922, and cannot be switched without using the main.

 But if traffic is low - e.g. if there is just one operator on the layout, or only a few operators, working different area of the layout, that is not necessarily a problem - then your local switching the town will just have to clear the main when a superior train is expected. 

 Also, having just a handful of tracks like this is more than enough to do meets, serve local industries, have passing trains drop of blocks of cars to be handled by another train (or even another railroad), and quite a few other things.

If, on the other hand, you will have six or seven people handling three trains and a switcher at the same time, with one train needing to pass the yard, one train arriving in the yard and one train departing from the yard at the same time as the last person is sorting cars for the next train, which will need to be ready for departure in one hour (15 minutes of real time on a 1:4 clock), then it becomes important to be able to continue sorting cars into blocks while trains passes on the main and arrives or departs.

 If your yard and mainline is busy enough, it might even make sense to have a small "belt line" or industry spur leading from the end of the yard over or under the main into the manufacturing plant.

 So it all depends on how you plan to _use_ the yard, and how much traffic you are planning.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi Jerry

you have to foul the main, the cross-over i added from the yard-lead to the main will help a lot speeding up things.

But classification is a continuous job, it would foul the main very often on a pike with lots of traffic, like most model railroads. An industry is often only served a couple a times a week. Also real yards are compromises. On busy (model)railroads the lead track prevents blocking the main for to long a time.

Paul

[BIG JERR]

steinjr

BDP:

Here is my second version of the yard I started. I made it better to expand to 20' instead of 18'.

 

 Looks okay for staging. Leads too short for switching without fouling the main.

 Stein

 

 

Brad ,looking good,hows that any rail worken for ya?

Stein; Im not trying to highjack,but you raise a question in me with "fouling the main" ,I do get the reason an importance ,but what if a major manufacfuer wanted to build a factory just north of Brads yard ,say where the backwall is . how does Brads railroad pick-up and deliver to this factory without "fouling the main" or atleast crossing it from the Yard ?... this will help me Jerry

[steinjr]

BDP

Here is my second version of the yard I started. I made it better to expand to 20' instead of 18'.

 Looks okay for staging. Leads too short for switching without fouling the main.

 Stein

 

 

[richhotrain]

Looking good, Brad.

Keep us posted on your progress and include some photos.

Rich

[Paulus Jas]

hi brad

atlas #6

Paul

[BDP]

Here is my second version of the yard I started. I made it better to expand to 20' instead of 18'.

[BDP]

Paul

I do like that one. Gives you the double ended yard but then gives you the dead ends for storage like you said.

Do you by chance know what type of turnouts that are used in that so I could plug them into a design in AnyRail? If not I can print it out and try to copy it freehand. The yard I am working on is coming along nicely also. The extra 2' is helping out. I am able to keep the curves at the end at 24*.

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

hi

page 28 in Freight Yards by Andy Sperandeo and  page 26 in Track Planning For Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

Paul

[BIG JERR]

Paulus Jas

hi Brad

look at this yard:

Important are the drill track and the separate connection of the arrival and departure tracks in comparison to the classification and storage tracks.

Paul

dont know about Brad,but I like it .afew small changes and that would fill my needs nicely...and its very helpful how you labeled each track and kept it simple ,I have all the books mentioned and still have trouble understanding it all,but this is good it makes total since to me,nice job! Jerry

[Paulus Jas]

hi Brad

look at this yard:

Important are the drill track and the separate connection of the arrival and departure tracks in comparison to the classification and storage tracks.

Paul

[cuyama]

BDP

Finding the Shinohara curved turnouts helps out alot. I am using #6's to enter the first stage of the yard and allows me more of what I am trying to do. I have my alert radius set at 22* so nothing is smaller than that.

If you are talking about the Shinohara Code 100 #6 curved turnout, the effective inner radius is probably closer to 19-20", signficantly shaper than your other curves. Most CAD programs only flag the curves you draw, not the internal curves of the turnouts.

BDP

Wish my LHS carried any books on yard layouts.

Why not just buy the Sperandeo book from Amazon or Kalmbach directly?

Byron

[BDP]

Thanks Rich

I just like the double ended yard as well. I am still working on it in AnyRail to make it better. Having an additional 2' in width helps and I have since moved my #6 turnouts that start the "Second Main" down has allowed me to have 24" radius on the #1 main line and somewhere between 22 and 23 with the 2nd main line. Some of that will be flex track.

Finding the Shinohara curved turnouts helps out alot. I am using #6's to enter the first stage of the yard and allows me more of what I am trying to do. I have my alert radius set at 22* so nothing is smaller than that. Should work out ok. Also moving some stuff on the layout to make it better also.

Brad

[richhotrain]

BDP

Rich

I have what I would call 2 main lines. The furthest outer track is the first main line for any passing train to get through. The second inner one I would call a 2nd main line but could be blocked in need be. I do see what you are saying though. And yes as of now I dont plan on having my 6 axle loco's going off of the #4 turnouts into the yard just to pass through to the diesel house.

I am starting to think that I should start over with this and come up with something else. Although I do like how it is but is it really accessible as a yard should be? I guess that is the question. I assumed that if the real deal kinda looked like this then it should be ok but the more I study it maybe it should be changed. I do like the double ended yard but maybe I should switch to something else. Wish my LHS carried any books on yard layouts.

I have something similar.  My layout is a double mainline with a yard as well.  In the diagram that follows, red and blue are the main lines.  Green is the switching lead.  The orange tracks are the storage tracks and the black track is my ladder with a "runaround" track for switchers.

If I were you, I would not start over.  Stick with the double end yard, just consider adding the switching lead for added flexibility.

You will love that Kalmbach book on freight yards.  Lots of drawings and lots of good ideas.

Rich

[BDP]

Rich

I have what I would call 2 main lines. The furthest outer track is the first main line for any passing train to get through. The second inner one I would call a 2nd main line but could be blocked in need be. I do see what you are saying though. And yes as of now I dont plan on having my 6 axle loco's going off of the #4 turnouts into the yard just to pass through to the diesel house.

I am starting to think that I should start over with this and come up with something else. Although I do like how it is but is it really accessible as a yard should be? I guess that is the question. I assumed that if the real deal kinda looked like this then it should be ok but the more I study it maybe it should be changed. I do like the double ended yard but maybe I should switch to something else. Wish my LHS carried any books on yard layouts.

[richhotrain]

BDP

Rich

Thanks for the reply. I did think about using all #4's but wanted to makes sure my 6 axle loco's didnt derail coming into the yard. They have a straight shot into the engine house with the #4's so I dont think that will be a problem.

Brad

Brad,

I assume from that reply that those 6 axle diesels leave the mainline for the yard on #6 turnouts but do not enter the ladder tracks via the #4 turnouts.  Is that correct?

If that is the case, you might consider odave's suggestion to install a dedicated switching lead just before the ladder tracks to accomodate long freights without blocking the main line.  You could use #6 turnouts to construct the switching lead.  That way, your 6 axle diesels don't have to go all around the yard on that shortest track to exit the yard.

Rich

[BIG JERR]

hi Brad; been following this thread ,please post your final plan as Id like to see it, and maybe give a reveiw of your experiance with any rail software, as I did try the free down load and like much of it ,mostly the way you could shape the flex track ,much easier for me than atlas 10 . but with all the money invested in this I was a little hesitant to buy it ,now Im rethinking after struggiling with atlas 10 ,but it is free.... .let us know Jerry

[BDP]

Rich

Thanks for the reply. I did think about using all #4's but wanted to makes sure my 6 axle loco's didnt derail coming into the yard. They have a straight shot into the engine house with the #4's so I dont think that will be a problem.

The newer design is coming along nicely and hopefully have it done shortly. I did add a few curved turnouts which helped alot and although it doesnt look like the yard I am trying to model it is close. Yea adding that 2' helped out. Actually making the radius into the yard from 22" to 24" so that will help out more also. I called the LHS and they were out of that book so I will have to order it online.

My yard will be used more for storage of cars more than anything. I will be doing some switching with in the yard and building small trains. I am free lance modeling the CSX here in Illiniois. So my theme of the layout is Agriculture. Going to have a couple of grain elevators, ehtanol plant, fertilizer plant, small town, 2-lane roads, etc. I threw in the intermodel yard because I take my wife to Chicago every now and then to her eye doctor and we pass a UP yard that has a intermodel yard right next to the main yard, so that is the reason for that but I may have room somewhere else for it.

It is coming along nicely. Bench work hopefully starts this weekend.

Brad

[BDP]

Deleted post

[richhotrain]

Brad,

If you are up to 20 feet for that double ended yard, you are in pretty good shape, and you will be able to store a lot of cars even on the shortest track.

One thing to consider is that if you are using #4 turnouts to form the ladder, why not just use #4 turnouts to enter and exit the yard as well.  That will add a little more space, albeit a little,   There is no reason to begin and end with #6 turnouts if the rest of the yard is made up of #4 turnouts.

Lance had a great suggestion regarding the book by Kalmbach - - "The Model Railroaders Guide To Freight Yards" by Andy Sperandeo.  It's a great reference that I use all of the time as well.  Somewhere in the book is a set of illustrations for designing different ladders including the pinwheel and the compund ladder.  As for the compound ladder, the  book explains and illustrates the use of small curved pieces of track between the turnouts to greatly expand usable space within the yard.  You should get this book ASAP.

Rich

[Paulus Jas]

hi Brad

it would be nice if you could share "your" new design. But you are not giving information easily.

I decided not to draw anything for you for various reasons. You showed us your design in any-rail, with #2 switches,  pretty tight radii and 3,6" spacing. All issues that should have been discussed before drawing anything. Just like knowing all things you want to incorporate in your design. Add to it the footprint, reach-in problems and all other stuff Stein mentioned.(such as train length and kind of equipment)

If you had read the posting of Byron Henderson about cad to soon and even designing to soon, before you made clear what you want to achieve, chances are your layout will turn out to be fit for the dustbin.

And before spending 1000's of money on stuff, why should the creators of  a CAD-program work for free?

You found out space restrictions are making a copy of real track plan impossible. The question is what can be compressed and what can be left out. Without sufficient information you can't expect serious help; if some one else can do it without, he is not really helping.

wish you the best

Paul

 

 

[BDP]

The new design does have a few curved turnouts so it allows the double ended yard start a little earlier in the curve so it can start the sidings a little earlier and a little steeper so to say. Had a gentleman do it on AnyRail for me and it works in the software at 18' but I am allowed 2 more feet for a total of 20' wide. Even at 18' my shortest siding in the yard was still 8 ft. Enough for roughly 9-10 cars. The way it works I can have a total of 65 cars in the siding at any one time. That should be plenty for me.

The Shinohara curved turnouts are going to work great for this.

[Texas Zepher]

BDP

Here is a pic of what I am trying to accomplish in my yard design.

AH, Double ended.  Now I see.  I call this a stack of sidings.    I still stick with the thought that to save space and make the yard tracks longer it should be a compound ladder on both ends.   The other two options are to make a funky spiral type ladder through the curve on wither end, or used curved turnouts.   Either of those would all the maximum space to the yard track length.   It also means some of the yard track would be curved.

[BDP]

I guess I should have titled my thread: What do you think of my yard, will it work?  My bad I guess. I am wanting it to work but I know somethings in real life just cant be modeled. I did get more space, now I am up to 20' wide.

Brad

[steinjr]

 Okay, so the main design goal for your layout seems to be :

Make one biggish yard, which in track configuration should look as similar as possible to some specific (but as yet not identified) yard from your childhood.

So when you ask for design help, you are not really asking for help to designing "a yard".

 You are seemingly asking for advice or suggestions on how to do selectively compress a specific prototype yard, so it can fit into your layout room.

 It would probably be easier to offer suggestions about that if we know what specific yard you were trying to model, and if you had some links to pictures or diagrams showing the prototype yard you want to model.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[BDP]

Thanks for all the reply's guys appreciate the help. What I am trying to accomplish is a yard that is close to where I grew up that is now owned by CSX. Now obviously trying to put most of what is in the real yard to my layout is becoming somewhat difficult. The yard that is there has the one main line that is totally unblocked to allow passing trains to go by and then what I would call the second main feeds into the yard itself. This can be used for putting trains together etc. I am just trying to fit to much into the yard. I have even made it 36" from the 30" I intended it to be. It does make it hard because of the turns on the ends but I like the view of the yard having ends on them.

I did have to move the engine house from where the real one is vs where it is on my layout and I wanted a small inter model yard but didnt have the space in other parts of the layout. The yard is the toughest part of my layout. All other sidings are dead ends and wont be like this.

I have modified it from the pics that I have above. Someone on another board helped me finish it that has the full version of AnyRail. Kuddo's to him. As far as $$, most of this was purchased as Christmas presents, so not much $$$ out of my pocket. Although that will change. LOL

What I plan to do with the yard, I plan on doing a little switching, small train building and just train watching. This is to get my 2 sons involved who love to watch trains. I know the yard isnt perfect or maybe what some may want but it is as close as I can get to the yard I am trying to accomplish. I will also look into getting the books mentioned and see if I can come up with something better.

Brad

[steinjr]

BDP

I guess what I am trying to accomplish with this yard is some staging but mostly just storage of cars on the layout. I have 1 passing line and then 1 line feeding into the yard that could be used as a main also if need be.

 Okay, Brad - the stuff above is what you say you want/need. On the other hand, what you draw, shows an engine terminal and an "inter-modal yard".

 Maybe the first thing you should read is Byron Henderson's blog post "Does this yard make me look fat?", where Byron makes the obvious, but oft ignored in web forums, point that it is not sensible to try to evaluate and optimize a yard design until you understand what purpose it is supposed to serve.

What is it really you want to be able to do with your yard?

 Will you have several people running trains in and around your yard simultaneously?

 Will one (or more) person need to run his trains into the yard while another is sorting in the yard ?

 Will most traffic be coming from the left, most from the right or about as much traffic come from both sides?

 Will the yard be building trains for many destinations simultaneously?

 How long trains will you be running into and out of the yard ?

 Will you have traffic destinations/sources in the yard - like an inter-modal terminal ?

 Will you need an engine terminal?

 If you want to use the yard as a staging yard (ie to hold whole trains waiting to make their run later), how many and how long trains do you need room for?

 And so on and so forth. Understanding what you are trying to achieve might make it easier to offer relevant advice.

Smile,
Stein

 

 

[odave]

Brad:

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but in the Anyrail picture you posted, one problem I see is that there's no dedicated switching lead.  The swticher pulling long cuts out of the body tracks will be blocking the main.  I read up-thread that you intend this yard primarily for storage & staging, so maybe this is no big deal.  Also no big deal if you don't expect to have high traffic levels on your main.  But if you want to make this an "operating" yard and you don't want through trains to wait on the yard job, you may want to work in a dedicated switching lead.

Good luck,

[HoosierLine]

One of the more useful books I've  picked up over the years is Kalmbach's "The Model Railroaders Guide To Freight Yards" by Andy Sperandeo.  It's a great reference that I use all of the time.

Lance

Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at www.lancemindheim.com

 

[dknelson]

Two observations, one general and one specific to the question.

General observation: I am of the opinion that nothing is more deceptive from a planning aspect than the use of a line to represent track (whether that line is on a track plan or is drawn on your benchwork), because track has actual width and bulk.  A line fools you into thinking all manner of things are possible that are not possible.  It makes fouling points essentially out of sight and out of mind.  You lose all perspective on just how many cars can fit on a given track, because the line makes you think your cars and locomotives are also two dimensional!   Worst of all, you adjust your lines to what it is that you would like, rather than being constrained by what can actually be done. 

Having said that, the use of a simple track planning tool or template can at least bring some discipline to the otherwise all-too-easy drawing of a line freehand.  And if you lack the patience to draw a clean usable plan and go from that to laying track, at the very least you can readily create accurate cardboard life size equivalents of track and turnouts and play around with those rather than lay track and "learn" (ouch) as you go.  Some guys make xerox copies of the turnout sizes they use and that way you can pretend you have a whole stack of turnouts.  Copies of curves and straight track can be helpful too. 

Specific observation: a double ended yard crammed in a short space (such as trying to fit within the curved ends of an oval on a 4x8, or even a 4x12) is an invitation to pure frustration because even once it is built, assuming it can be built., you quickly realize that given the fouling points on the turnouts, you actually have shockingly little usable yard space.   That shortest track might hold one car!  Worse yet, it might be too short to hold even one car.   Remember that anything less than a full car length is useless for a siding or yard track, and an additional half a  car length is of little or no practical use either. 

Let's try to think in terms of total cost of turnouts versus number of cars that can be stored.  Your proposed yard is very expensive compared to the storage capacity that is gained. 

A better option for you might be single ended yard (maybe as few as two tracks, or a third track just for cabooses if that is in your era) jutting at an angle into the middle of the layout, with a run around track at the yard lead to give you at least something of the directional flexibility that you wanted with that double ended yard, and probably with as much if not more actual car storage capacity.

Dave Nelson

[Paulus Jas]

hi Brad

the best investment you could do is buying Track Planning For Realistic Operation by John Armstong.

And read the following link:

http://www.layoutvision.com/id40.html

Paul

[dante]

Brad,

You're welcome!  No-all 3 turnouts are #5s.  Of course you can try other sizes to see what works best for your situation.  And you might try it with curved turnouts or a combination starting with a straight.  Pinwheel was suggested to me by Cuyama; one end of my planned staging uses the latter combination.

Dante

[BDP]

Dante

Thanks for the pic. Am I correct in that the first turnout (bottom right) is a #6 left turnout followed by 2 wye"s? That is a good idea. I have several other options now also that some guys have been helping me with.

Thanks

Brad

[dante]

Suggest you try a pinwheel.  Attached is a quick study I did some time ago (ignore the "stuff" at the bottom).

Dante

[BDP]

Well I took a few minutes to learn the AnyRail software and was pretty easy to do. Only thing is I did the trial version and ran out at the 50 pieces limit. I did get 3/4 of it done and am posting to see if this is workable on my yard layout. Yard Layout is 18' long and 36" wide and is accessible from both sides.

I did not get the right side of the yard done but would mirror the left side. Let me know what you guys think if this is workable? I have the file but not sure if I can upload that here or not, if anyone would like to finish it for me. Really dont want to spend $60 on the subscription.

[BDP]

Paul

That is what I thought when I started laying out the track on the floor. I think what I am going to do is purchase a couple of curved turnouts and then place them further back in the turns and then go from there. Although I do like the yard in your 1st post that is the second one down.

I guess what I am trying to accomplish with this yard is some staging but mostly just storage of cars on the layout. I have 1 passing line and then 1 line feeding into the yard that could be used as a main also if need be.

I guess once I get the bench work done then I can go ahead and try to figure out what I would like. Just wish I could get used to the software so I could have a better feel for what I am doing. I have tried several but just cant get the hang of them.

 

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

hi

what you want is impossible

The compound ladder is the most space saving. And yes one foot squares.

BTW what kind of yard are you designing? Staging, classification or ....................? A double sided yard is often not needed at all.

you might read this

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html  (Bisguier-yarddesign)

paul

[BDP]

Paul

Thanks for posting that. I believe what I am trying to achieve is the second yard down from the top. Does each of the squares represent 1ft? If so that is what I am trying to achieve in the short amount of distance, that way I have longer runs in the actual yard. Wondering if you could switch a couple of those #6's for #4's? I dont plan on running to many of my 6 axle engines up in there, mostly my 4 axle engines.

Thanks

Brad

[BDP]

Guys,

Here is a pic of what I am trying to accomplish in my yard design. This is not to scale but shows what I am trying to do and with what turnouts where. If any of you have some better options I am open to those and will definitely check out those links.

Thanks

Brad

[Paulus Jas]

hi

several ladders

paul

[wsdimenna]

You may want to look here

 

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

[BDP]

I laid it on the floor where the layout will be. I mocked up the bench work with electrical tape on the floor and laid out the track there. Trying to simulate 22" curves with flex track was impossible but I think I did a close enough job to realize I am not going to like my yard the way I have it configured now.

I will get a pic up on paper of what I want but probably not the area since the bench work isnt done yet.

[Motley]

Also might want to post up a photo of the area you had laid out with your turnouts.

[BDP]

Yea I know. Gonna get one up in the morning for you guys to see what I am talking about. Not for sure if what I have down can be doable to suit my needs.

[BATMAN]

Without seeing a diagram it is hard for my tiny brain to get a handle on your situation. However  what I did to gain more yard space was to take the arrival/departure track off one side of the main loop and run them around to the ladder area on the other side where the yard is. I don't think it says anywhere that your A/D tracks can't be curved around the inside ends of the loop. 

Another way I bought more space was using curved turnouts off the mains where they curve, thus saving space for longer straight sidings. Just something to ponder.

 

                                                                 Brent

[wm3798]

A photo of the situation would be helpful.

[Texas Zepher]

BDP

What I have on my plan now is turnouts right before the yard, the main line and then a siding into and access to the yard. I have #6 turnouts to basically starting the siding for the yards and then 3 #4 turnouts making up the yard and finishing with another #6 to end it.

Why the mix of sizes of turnouts?   Seems that would make the yard tracks at odd angles to one another without curved adjustments off of each one.

What is the purpose of the "yard" in the first place.  Knowing what it is going to be used for can be very helpful in the design.

As the prior poster noted the quickest way to save some space is to do a compound ladder.

[cowman]

Have you tried a compound ladder design?  Not sure how it would work, mixing frog #'s, but it might be worth a try.  I have an Atlas track planning book and with all #6's they gain 6 1/2" in length and add one more track in their example.

Don't know how a compound of all #4's would work out.  Since you have the turnouts on hand, and have a little flex track on hand, you may be able to work something out.

Good luck,

Richard