BDP richhotrain: BDP: Rich I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those. Brad, What brand of turnouts are you using? Rich Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's. Brad
richhotrain: BDP: Rich I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those. Brad, What brand of turnouts are you using? Rich
BDP: Rich I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.
Rich
I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.
Brad,
What brand of turnouts are you using?
Most of my turnouts are Atlas #6's with a few #4's.
Brad
If you take a close look at the throwbar portion between the two rails, there are two plastic tabs holding down the metal points. Those plastic tabs can be carefully and gently lifted out of position with a small screwdriver or the dull side of an Exacto knife blade. Once lifted out of position, free of the metal points, the plastic throwbar can be reversed so that you have room to install a manual ground throw. I never met a throwbar that could not be reversed, so consider giving it a try. Once the throwbar is reversed, simply press the plastic tabs down on the metal points once again.
Alton Junction
BDP Paul On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.
Paul
On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench.
So, the dark area is your interior aisle reached by ducking under the top or right side of the layout?
richhotrain BDP: Rich I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those. Brad, What brand of turnouts are you using? Rich
BDP Paul On the left side and bottom of the layout, it is right against the wall. Only accessible from the front. The top and right are accessible from both sides but I plan on putting up a scenic background on the right to hide my work bench. I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner. As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in. Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.
I re-did this and moved the turnout on the left down more. Is this where you were talking about moving it? Or move it on around the corner.
As far as a staging yard I could look at adding something later on to where the yard is now or maybe even behind my scenic background on the right. But I can do something later with that if need be. As far as the track being close to the edge, I think you are correct, I will move them in.
Here is what I did. Let me know if this is what you meant.
I'm betting that Paul wants that switching lead to come all the way down to the bottom left corner even if that requires a right hand curved turnout to make the connection to the main line. Then the tracks to the ethanol plant could diverge right after the turnout from the main line that would form the switching lead. That would make sense in order to make your switching lead longer than your longest train so as not to block the main line.
Paulus Jas hi about the engine pocket: hi Brad; not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station. Beside some aesthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it. IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom. Paul
hi
about the engine pocket:
hi Brad;
not bad at all, i would make the yard lead way longer, so the tracks at the left could be used as a double track main; all the way down to the second station.
Beside some aesthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.
IMAO the tracks are to close to the edge, except at the bottom.
Beside some esthetic comments you could add a real staging yard. It has not to be build yet, thinking ahead where you could place it is what i have in mind. As I understood you have access all around the layout as well, so it would be easy to find a place for it.
Well here is the vast majority of my layout. I am still contemplating putting in a spur or 2 on the bottom leading to some industry but what that is I am not for sure yet. I dont want to put the Inter Model yard there because I am planning a small town and maybe some farm houses.
In this Layout I did what Paul had posted out of the magazine. Like I said in my earlier post, I dont think my Caboose ground throws will work with this unless I need to add a short piece of track in between the diverging route and main line connections on the turnouts. I did move the turnout on the left down more to allow more room in and out of the yard.
In this one I went ahead and added a Shinohara curved turnout to connect to one of the sidings just to add another run around if needed.
Let me know what you think.
richhotrain dante: steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead. Dante Dante, I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard. Rich
dante: steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead. Dante
steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead.
Dante
Dante,
I should let Stein speak for himself, but I think that he meant what he said because he was not counting the main line which was outside the yard.
Sorry - Rich is right. I must somehow have dropped a "yard" there - I meant the "third double ended yard track" (i.e. not counting the main). Track no 4 from the top of the drawing.
Smile, Stein
Paulus Jas hi Rich you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in. You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well. BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout. Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too. Paul
hi Rich
you are a full100 % right; but if you read more about yard-design (eg freight yard-design by Andy Sperandeo) you could see extra connections were often made. So freight trains could also leave or enter the enter the yard by the switch-lead. Of course the dispatcher or tower-man had to take these decisions. Direct access to the main (to the east) from some of the classification tracks have the same function; flexibility designed in.
You could omit switch D, leaving the yard-lead as a stub-track. Or connect it with the main by a cross-over, creating an extra switcher pocket. The yard goat could wait here till a freight heading for the main has passed. The same applies for the ladder E. Stein suggested to add a switcher pocket there as well.
BTW all these tricks are only needed if it is dictated by the amount of traffic. On a just a few-trains-a-day branch the main would be used as a drill-track as well. If the OP wants to run just one train at a time these designs are not appropriate. When more then one train is running at the same time, it might be wise to think about the consequences, not only in the yard but also for the remainder of his layout.
Tony Koester found out, while researching his NKP, switchers worked with half trains for safety reasons. The engineer could not see well the switch men on the ground at the other end of the train. Lance Mindheim's saying, the more you know about real railroads, the less track you need for realistic operation applies here too.
Paul,
You mention that a switcher pocket could be added to ladder E as well. What would be the track configuration necessary to accomplish this pocket?
BDP Rich I did look at trying to reverse the throw but I dont think I can without doing much harm to the turnout. If someone has done this I would be open to suggestions on how to. How I have it in my blueprints is that the turnout is connected right to the diverging route. Is this correct or do I need to add a small piece of curved or straight track in between my turnouts? If you think there should be room then I need to go back to the drawing board. I would rather use some sort of manual throw instead of electrical throws to run those.
richhotrain BDP: My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle. Brad Brad, If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises. If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine. Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be. Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration. Rich
BDP: My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle. Brad
My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
If you wind up using under table switch machines, I encourage you to consider Tortoises. If you buy a number of them at once, the expense will be considerably reduced, and the resulting operation is so much better than with some of the other under table switch machines like the Atlas machine.
Before giving up on Caboose Industries manual ground throws, however, have you considered rearranging the throwbars from left to right, or right to left, as the case may be. Using Paul's diagram, the turnouts should not be so tight as to eliminate manual ground throws from consideration.
dante steinjr: But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Did you mean to say the lowermost of the four double-ended tracks? The third appears to be accessible without going through the switching lead. Dante
Thanks for the Humpyard manual control info. Will definitely take a look at them. I would only need 3 of them.
BDP My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle. Brad
steinjr But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though.
BDP My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
You don't have to use switch machines. Check the Humpyard manual controls (or you can make your own similar controls) that install under the layout.
steinjr richhotrain: One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations. This one? If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track. While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead. From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track. But the lowermost of the three double ended tracks cannot be used as an A/D track from/towards the left without going through the switching lead. In a pinch, it can be used as an A/D track from/towards the right, though. Smile,Stein
richhotrain: One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
This one?
If you look closely at the crossovers at the upper left hand corner, you will see that an inbound train coming from the left will bypass the switching lead on the main, and then go into the A/D track.
While a train is arriving or departing, the four lowermost yard track can be switched from the switching lead. From the switching lead, you can also access the A/D track.
Smile,Stein
Stein,
Yes, that is the diagram, and you make a great point. A train on the mainline can enter the yard throught the upper crossover directly onto the arrival-departure track, bypassing the switching lead. In effect, the arrival-departure track takes precedence over the switching lead track in the order of the track configuration.
Good read and very well thought out. Had to read it a couple of times and actually put myself on a train to simply figure out what you were saying. All is good.
I think you can really put a lot of thought into a yard and when you finally get the one you want, something else pops up. Is there a perfect yard out there? I dont know. Do I want it? Yes if applicable.
After my sons helped me with a little bit of bench work last night and after they went to bed, I did layout my track to the design Paul had posted and I modeled and it will work. I have 24* coming into the "pinwheel" (if that is what it is called) so my 6 axle engines will be ok. My only problem I have is that I was going to use all manual Caboose Ind throws (for more of a hands on layout) and the turnouts are so tight that I wont be able to use them. For those 3 turnouts I can use under table switch machines. It works out the my 16" center boards will not interfere with them, which is a miracle.
The rest of the design of the layout is coming along nicely. I am at a stand still right now because I have been busy but I need to decide what else I am going to on the layout that the trains would need to service.
richhotrain One element of yard design that continues to perplex me is the order of the drill track and the arrival-departure track. In the layout design that Paul proposed fro BDP's yard, it is the drill track (switching lead) that diverges off the main line and leads into the arrival-departure track. However, it seems to me that the usual order is the arrival-departure track first, followed by the switching lead track. That is the method shown in the Kalmbach book and Paul's link to the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design in the final diagram. That makes sense because the arrival-departure track is the track where a train can be received into the yard for classification and the track where a train can be made up prior to departure for other destinations.
This thread continues to fascinate me, and it has forced me to rethink my own existing layout design. Yesterday, I re-read my Kalmbach book on Freight Yards (Sperandeo) as well as the various likns that Paul provided in his earlier posts.
Despite the contentiousness of portions of this thread, many good points have been raised on layout design. I come away from this discussion with three principal conclusions.
First, a yard should have a drill track, or switching lead, that is longer than the longest train so as not to block the main line track with an incoming or outgoing train.
Second, one or more arrival-departure tracks should branch off the end of the drill track and should be longer than the longest train so as not to block the drill track while classifying cars.
Third, a drill track should have an escape track, a crossover, to access the main line track when the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to the main line track.
On my own layout, a double mainline with crossover access from both the left and right to a double end yard, the crossovers lead onto the arrival-departure track just like in the final diagram in the Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design. Beyond the ladder to the classification tracks on either side of the arrival-departure track are the left and right switching lead tracks. The one flaw on my yard design is the absence of escape tracks from the switching leads onto the mainline to get around a filled arrival-departure track that blocks access to the mainline.
Paul mentions, as a concession, that with only one or two operators, there may be no use for a dedicated switching lead in the yard. That may be true but, even with a single operator, if the switching lead is full or, vice versa, the arrival-departure track is filled, blocking access to and from the main line, there may be no way for the solo operator to bring another freight train into the yard for classification.
So, thoughtful yard design is essential.
The other point that I would make is that efficient yard design requires forethought as to the purpose of the yard. In BDP's initial yard plan, he had developed what one reply termed as a "stack of sidings". I couldn't agree more. When I first designed my layout, in addition to my classification yard, I included a smaller yard elsewhere on the layout. It was meant for "storage" or, maybe more appropriately, for "staging". It wound up being a "stack of sidings", a 22 foot span of crossovers and a ladder of 5 tracks, the smallest of which was only 4 feet of usable track for storing cars. I am still plagued with this rather pointless and relatively useless space that I will someday correct.
Last point. In one of the links that Paul provided, the author laments over the thoughtless use of turnouts that result in S-curves. Early on, an experienced modeler advised me against the use of turnouts aligned back to back to form a crossover followed by a turnout, resulting in a tight S-curve. As an alternative, the use of double slip turnouts can eliminate the dreaded S-curves. I did not listen and, today, I remain plagued by this design mistake as well.
Just some thoughts on yard design.
hi BDB,
you have 2 sons, one controller yet, if you want them to look telly, let them look at the trains only. My guess is , a second controller will be available soon. You'd better think about making your layout ready for 2 trains at a time now, then doing it later. It might save you a lot of bucks.
And if you you do not want serious help, OK, so be it.
I am very patient with learning newbies. One of the issues is car-length..........i am not sure about the type of cars you like to have and run. Try to push a longer cut of modern auto-racks through your switches and curves. The 22" radius is nice for 50 feet cars from the fifties. More modern 60, 70, 80 and even 90 feet long cars require bigger radii, and appropriate switches.
steinjr richhotrain: I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread. Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard. Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation. If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ? Smile, Stein
richhotrain: I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
Well, the thing is that we were discussing BDP's yard.
Not much point in posting a bunch of random yard designs - especially if they have nothing in common with BDPs situation.
If anyone want to do a "let's see some yard track plans" thread, then perhaps it would be a better idea to start a new thread for that purpose ?
Point well taken.
But, on the other hand, as I re-read the first post from antag2002, he says, "So I guess what im trying to say is even though it sounds like some of these guys just not giving you what you want to hear, it could just be you can't do it the way you see it in your mind. Having figured this out myself, I am now stuck in my design stage untill i figure out what's more important to me right now, the operations or running trains. if you want to see a pic of the yard I have drawn up let me know."
antag2002 is in the same mode as BDP, looking for help in designing a yard. So, comments that we might offer to antag2002 may be helpful to BDP or, for that manner, to many of those others following this thread.
It's all about the same thing. Efficient design of a yard to conduct prototypical operations. No?
no harn no foul
as i had said im not posting it here.but rich was interested in seeing it so i posted a link to my thread.but i do likr you idea for a "yard" design threadcould even have designs of different types of yards looking forward to seeing it
richhotrain I don't think he is trying to hijack the thread. He is responding to my bit of encouragement to post a drawing of his yard which could possibly add to this already quite interesting thread.
Thanks for posting that Bob. I looks very nice and a very good idea of tying in all your runs.
I guess I dont know why you have to be so harsh. Sorry that I didnt give you the specifics on what my layout is going to be like until a few post above. I dont plan on running this like a real railroad like you seem to possibly run yours. This is for pleasure for myself and my boys to sit back and watch trains run and teach them about using their minds and their hands instead of sitting on them on the couch watching tv.
If the mainline if blocked then so be it. It will get cleared up and then we can move on. I am not worried about the technicalities of "Running a Yard" as much as I am is to display and store my cars that are not in use. I do like the yard diagram you posted, and I thank you for that, as it will work on my layout. I am using all #6 turnouts with the exception of a few #4's. I am modeling the modern era so I will have 6 axle engine's but most of the yard work (when there is some) will be 4 axle engines. I have read and been told that even the 6 axle engine's will be ok with the #4 turnouts.
The yard is open on both sides as along with another side but there are 2 sides that will butt up against a wall. My radius I had set in AnyRail was set at 22* and I have no red lines in any of my curves. I wouldnt have built my benchwork if I known that somethings wouldnt have worked.
You are correct, I have 2 sons but as of now only 1 controller so we will only be running 1 train at a time until we get more controllers and also to get used to it. It doesnt matter to them if I have a double line or not, they just want to see trains run.
I think that this thread is being taken to serious for what I want this layout to be. I want it to be fun and an experience with myself and my sons.
Not all of us are as serious as you come across Paul, but I do thank you for your input and just have a little patience with us "Newbies" learning the ropes again of Model Railroading.
I have the layout almost complete in AnyRail and I will post in the next couple of day.
steinjr Antag2002: how do mi upload anyrail stuff here? Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one? Smile, Stein
Antag2002: how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?
how do mi upload anyrail stuff here?
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your design, instead of hijacking this one?
hi no i wasnt planning on hi jacking this thread. i use photo bucket just didnt think about converting it over. and i have a thread called new layout help http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/183399.aspxI was just posting here to give my 2 cents on yard design.