New Contest Proposal--Smallville

[vsmith]

.

[chadw]

The plan is based on Louisianna Missouri.  I have never been their, but at the beginning of this thread I began scanning the railroads of the midwest on google maps looking for interesting small towns.  Here's a link to the prototype for the West Bank Junction plan.

Town of Louisianna

I doubletraccked one of the lines and reversed the orientation of the interchange.  The satellite photos show the real interchange as more of a wye.  Obviously everything was selectively compressed, and I bent the town to fit around the corner.

For ops trains on the double track line would switch the grain terminal, which is actually that 9"x12" beam in disguise, the interchange, and the town's small team track, with some passenger and LCL taking place at the depot.  The single track line would switch the lumberyard and interchange and head to staging.  To get to staging the tracks head behind the stand of trees behind the depot and would gradually slope down behind the scenery or backdrop of the layout until they were low enough to have an accessible staging yard.  The other end of the single track line ends on the bridge across the river.  I would most likely model the swing bridge in the open position to give a reason for trains to not run across it.  It could also stop trains from running straight into the great abyss below. (the operating aisle)

Overall it was fun trying to take a prototype town and squeeze the most interesting elements of it into a small, odd shaped space.

Chad

[KingConrail76]

Unless your entire intent was to argue over none issues, I don't see your point in posting the above reply AFTER sending me a Private Message on the same subject.

Apperantly it was more important for you to "challenge" me, as you stated in your opening sentence, than to provide a suggestion for the contest, which just goes to further my OPINONS about a growing number of persons that post on this forum.

I have replied to all the comments in your post Via Private Messege, to avoid others having to be bothered by this.

 Essensially what Steve H and Mark are arguing about seems to be due to a cultural difference.

 Steve H seem to feel that it is more important to be tactful and spare him the embarassment of having to publicly acknowledge that he were wrong, than it is for him to publicly acknowledge that a claim he made about prototypical practices was wrong.

 Mark, on the other hand, seems to feel that it is more important to correct an erronous statement about prototypical practics for steam servicing in the US midwest in the 1950s (and explain what basis he has for claiming that the statement was erronous) than it is to spare Steve H's feelings.

 Okay - you have both made your point. Time to end this part of the debate and move on.

 Stein

 

As I extended to Mark in the Private messege, Stein, you too are invited to the States for a hands on lesson, and tour of facilities. I'm not going to argue over facts that I see first hand, practically in my back yard. As I've stated before, I am no expert on the midwest, but here on the East Coast, the suggestions for BASIC loco serviceing (fuel/water) that I made were utilized prototypically. Not more than 10 miles from a MAJOR coaling station on the PRR mainline, there are examples in 4 towns, of water and coal available for locos in need of additional fuel and water.

[ICRR1964]

The towns that are in the area where I live had pretty much the same consistant options in their towns. Most of the small towns that are around me back in the 50's and 60's had; freight, grain, coal, lumber, depot and livestock. Almost all of the towns did have the watering hole for the steamers, they did also have coaling. This consisted of piles with conveyor, or a small tower sometimes, the larger towns had larger towers.

Most of the sidings in my area were used for grain car storage, the spurs were used for dead end freight which was lumber or goods, coaling was at the edge of town at the publics request because of dust, they did not complain when they needed coal for heating though, go figure though! Almost all of the towns around whare I live are basically the same though.

At the present though, all that is still being used is the grain facility, depot, livestock, lumber, coal, and watering holes are gone. 

[dehusman]

Just for giggles I went through 1930's prototype profiles for the former IGN (Mopac) beteen Longview, TX and Laredo and Houston, TX.  Steam era, single track main line  Reasonably heavy traffic patterns, lots of locations with local business.  You can argue whether its in the midwest but I would maintain its not that much different in population density although its is much more hilly than Kansas or Oklahoma (meaning higher water usage).

Fuel facilities averaged 80 miles.

Water stations averaged 22 miles.

Towns averaged 6 miles. 

So about every 15th town had a fueling facility, every 3rd or 4th town had a water plug.  Nowhere near the every town had a fuel and water supply concept.

Dave H.

[steinjr]

 

I'm not going to argue over facts that I see first hand, practically in my back yard. As I've stated before, I am no expert on the midwest, but here on the East Coast, the suggestions for BASIC loco serviceing (fuel/water) that I made were utilized prototypically. Not more than 10 miles from a MAJOR coaling station on the PRR mainline, there are examples in 4 towns, of water and coal available for locos in need of additional fuel and water.

 Excellent. And this is relevant to the discussion of what would be prototypical practices in small agricultural towns in the US midwest in the 1950s in what way ?

 First, for the sake of this debate, let us very roughly define the US midwest in railroading context as Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota and North Dakota - ie west of Chicago, east of the Rockies, north of the Arkansas-Oklahoma line.

 We certainly could expend this loose "definition" westwards to include the eastern parts of MT, CO and WY, if that would help your argument.

 If necessary, we could include the three states Indiana, Ohio and Michigan, even though in a railroading context these three rust belt states has more of an eastern than a midwestern feel - Chicago is the great switchover point between eastern and western railroads in the US.

 We will (for the purpose of this discussion, and to give you maximum leeway in making your argument) define "the 1950s" as the period between December 7th 1941 and January 20th 1961 - ie from Pearl Harbor until the Kennedy inauguration. The last time period where steam still saw extensive every day use in the US midwest.

 

As I extended to Mark in the Private messege, Stein, you too are invited to the States for a hands on lesson, and tour of facilities.

 I already spend, and have spent, one month every year in the US midwest - in my case in Minnesota for the last 10 or 11 years. I've only been to Illinois a couple of times (I have family and friends in southern Illinois).

  I have not visited the other US midwestern states yet - unless you count riding Amtrak between the Twin Cities and Chicago as visiting Wisconsin - I wouldn't - I didn't get off the train and spend any significant amount of time looking around in WI.

 I would not at all mind seeing more of the US midwest first hand. Besides - being on of them dumb non-American furriners I happen to have seven weeks of vacation a year, so I certainly could spare the time, if you should want to pick up the tab for flying me to the US midwest and paying for reasonable hotel accomodations and meals while I am there.

 Might be good for you to get a chance to see the US midwest too, since you by your own admission is "no expert on the midwest", and argue about railroading practices in the US midwest based on what the PRR did "on the east coast", presumably in the mid-Atlantic states (ie defined for the purpose of this discussion as New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, maybe including Maryland and Delawere - ie east of the Appalachians, south of New England, north of the old confederacy).

 I would be just as pleased to go see the old PRR lands, for that matter, even though that is not terribly relevant in the context of this discussion, if you should desire to invite me over for an extended visit, all expenses paid.

 That is also an interesting part of the US, one I have read extensively about for - umm - call it about 25 years or so - I am 42 years old now, and didn't learn to read English until I was about 12 and wasn't able to read it fluently enough to really start digging into US history, geography, railroading etc until I was about 17.

 Us poor dumb non-American furriners first have to learn our own primitive languages before we can learn English, you know.

 As the luck of the draw has it, unlike a lot of my countrymen, including my best friend over here in Norway, who fairly regularily travel to both NYC and Washington DC, I have never seen the mid-Atlantic states in person. 

 Yet. Closest I have ever gotten is Illinois to the west, South Carolina to the south. Wifey (who was born in MN, but lived in VA for a couple of years before moving back to the midwest) and I have discussed taking a family vacation in the mid-Atlantic states, but have decided to wait until our youngest son, who now is six years old, is in junior high and have learned more about US history.

 We would like our kids to know the significance of such places as Ellis Island, Valley Forge, Fort McHenry, the City of Brotherly love, the Horseshoe Curve, Appomattox Court House and so on and so forth before we go there. Our kids are both Norwegians and Americans - they are going to learn the history and culture of both of the countries they parents come from.

 Anyways, it probably would be far less expensive (and simpler) for you if you simply went to a good public library or a university library and looked up Sanborn insurance maps of say 20 different agricultural towns from the US midwest, selected at random.

 The Sanborn fire insurance maps are available online - to public libraries and educational libraries that chose to subscribe to this service: http://sanborn.umi.com/

 And just to be clear about it : I have not claimed that I have extensive knowledge of US railroad coaling practices in the US midwest in the 1950s. 

 It is certainly possible that you are right and Mark and Dave is wrong. But so far you have not produced any compelling evidence of you knowing more about coaling practices in the US midwest in the 1950s than say Dave or Mark.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[KingConrail76]

Feel better Stein?

You sure have a lot to say for someone who's right with nothing to prove.

But getting back to one of your points, What does ANY of THIS have to do with Chip's New Contest Proposal?

I made a suggestion of Contest ideas, that are completely feasable*, yet you and Mark seem more compelled to argue over an issue that has long been dead. I believe that the Guidlines of the Contest have been drawn at this point.

  *As stated by others, presumably on "your side", one could estimate the coaling and water facilities to be located in about one in fifteen towns, or one town every 25 to 50 miles apart. Where did I or anyone else say that the suggestion I made was not for one of these such towns? Or any one specific town at that? They were LDE's, Layout Design Elements, brought together to form a "town" for the purpose of giving suggestions to Chip, whom asked for such suggestions to be given.

Though I can only speak for myself, I'm sure others that have more self-control would agree, you're really making an (insert synonym for chocolate-starfish) of yourself.

[KingConrail76]

 It is certainly possible that you are right and Mark and Dave is wrong. But so far you have not produced any compelling evidence of you knowing more about coaling practices in the US midwest in the 1950s than say Dave or Mark.

 Smile,
 Stein

I suggest you and Mark read this thread from beginnig to end again, as I just have. I never stated that I knew more than anyone else, or that my original suggestion was PROTOTYPICAL. I suggested a group of Elements that could be combined to form a Layout Design. I once stated in a re-reply to Dave, that I "believe ALL small towns would have some provision...". What begat where we are now was a combination of misstatement/lack of explanation by me, and misinterpretation/need to argue by Mark. Your original reply to that Post should have ended all this bickering, but somehow, Mark just couldn't let it go that someone dare suggest something non-prototypical. For what reason you've decided to jump on his bandwagon, I just can't imagine, because as I recall, and re-read, you once HAD a voice of reason, though I disagree that Marks original comments were not an attack on me. What other suggestions has he had such harsh remarks about?, Other than mine? None! That's personal.

I have nothing to prove to anyone, and I have yet to see a real suggestion from Mark for THIS contest, only his acceptance of some ideas proposed by others, and his admonishment of mine.

As for your travel itinerary, when you do come to The City of Brotherly Love, shoot me an Email, I'd really enjoy showing you around the Kensington neighborhood. And there is a great Amtrak station in North Philly, but you've gotta see it at night, the lighting is awsome.

[exPalaceDog]

Let's relax a bit and apply a little common sense to this question.

First, let's observe that railroads a general "cheap". If a facility is needed, they will build it. But they will NOT usually waste the stockholders' money on facilities that are NOT needed.

Second, assuming adequate tender capacity, most engines will be fueled between assignments at one of the division terminals. Most assignments involve running from one end to the other of the division.

However, there are some assignments where an engine will rarely visit a division terminal. Consider a helper grade in the middle of the division, there the helper engines will shuttle up and down the grade. In some cases, a engine may need to be assigned to an intermediate station if the switching workload exceeds that which the way freight can accomplish and complete its' other duties. In addition, engines may be assigned to a branch line where they shuttle between the junction and the end of the branch. In such cases, additional coaling facilities will be required to service these engines. Hence, there will be fueling facilities in some but not all of the stations to meet local requirements.

Have fun

 

[steinjr]

Feel better Stein?

 Yes. Your repeated claims of having been the victim of a personal attack when you had been exposed to nothing worse than having a couple of posters (Dave and Mark) disagree with something you posted did annoy me. 

 But that was no excuse for my post. I do apologize to the other readers for unneccessarily wasting bandwidth in this thread.

 Let's get back to Chip's actual design contest.

 Stein

[marknewton]

I have spent 37 years LIVING next to the Pennsylvania RR mainline between Philidelphia and Harrisburg, Pa. I don't have expert knowledge of the MidWest, but I know full well what the Prototype did and did not do HERE.

Too bad that's irrelevant. What the dieselised sucessors to the Pennsy did from 1970 onwards has no bearing on or relevance to what Midwest roads did with steam engines between 1950 and 1955. Based on your posts so far, I'd say you haven't got much idea about how any railroad works, even the one at your back door.

So not one small town would have a water hose, or a pile of coal (in the 1950's) that could be used to service an engine if needed?

A hose? It's slow to fill, awkward to use, and supplies untreated water. If you knew anything at all about servicing steam locomotives, you'd know that filling the tender from a hose is the method of last resort. Further, you'd realise that servicing was planned to take place at locations that were properly equipped to do so.

But let's come at this from another angle - do you have ANY evidence at all that engines were serviced in this way, in the Midwest in the 1950s? You seem besotted by the idea, so perhaps you have some basis for thinking it was done?

And before you answer, STOP ASSUMING that any such facility has to be of any significant size. Come to my town, I can show you (NOW, in 2008) where there would have been (5) such places in a ten mile stretch of the Pennsy Mainline.

LOL! No, unless you have hard evidence, all you could show me is 5 places, based on your incomplete knowledge and lack of understanding, that you assume there were such things. Do you seriously maintain the PRR coaled and watered it's mainline locos this way?

At a bare minimum, to service a steam loco you need some means of watering it, some means of fuelling it, some means of sanding it, an inspection pit, an ashpit if it's coal-fired,
(all this would take up no more than a 350 foot stretch of straight track)

Really??? If we allow that assumption, do you reckon that 350' of trackdoesn't cost anything to build and maintain either? And you reckon that 350' of track, complete with water tank, standpipe, inspection pit, ashpit, etc, wouldn't show up in ANY documentation or photos? No-one would remember it?

and a workforce to make it all happen.
(maybe there is a cultural difference between Australia and the US here, but as I recall in the 1950's US , employees were cheap, and employers were shifty, thus labor cost would not be as much an issue as you presume.)

Obviously your 37 years next to the Pennsy hasn't taught you anything about how US railroads sought to reduce labour costs since day one. I didn't presume that labour costs were an issue in the 50s - the historical record says so. What do you think was the reason behind most significant developments, like SuperPower steam, CTC, diesels, electrification, and about a squillion other things?

If I recall correctly, in the US was a division point not roughly 100 miles from the next? So, who is to say that the "town" I suggested isn't dead center between two such points, and as such COULD have these facilities...

Who is to say? The hard evidence is to say. The evidence of 150 years worth of documentation, photos, oral history... That's who.

Again, you're making assumptions, I never said "on the ground", I said "a bin to shovel from", which could have been on a mound of earthen fill.

I'v e never encountered anyone so fixated on something that there's no evidence for. If these bins existed on earthen mounds, where's the photos of them? Where's the drawings, where's the symbols on track charts? Where's the remnants still extant? Where's the recollections of people who used them? Where is the evidence?

Now THAT sounds labor intensive, up over the sides, across a 2 foot gap, and into a tender....but it would NEVER be done from a bin, built to do such work???

Again, where's the evidence for your bins? Low-side gons were used for coaling, with the engines on a depressed track alongside, or whirlies were used to actually dump the coal in the tender. So there was no lifting up over the sides, no 2 foot gap, no heaving coal up to the tender...

As I said, I'm no expert on the MidWest, and Quote me correctly, I said "...Such As an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0...", indicating that I did not KNOW what exact loco would be used.

Obviously. 0-6-0s weren't used as branchline power in the 1950s, either.

I never specified a service interval..again more of YOUR assumptions.

I don't need to assume. I KNOW from experience how much coal and water a given type of loco will consume in a given role. You don't have a clue, or you wouldn't keep waffling on about needing a hose and a pile of coal, "just in case".

In Australia maybe. I suggest that your reasearch has lead you to believe that reading about things teaches you all you need to know about how things REALLY worked here in the US.

I've visited the US seven times - five of those visits were for work. That involved observing, and even running trains on the host railroads. Along the way I spent a lot of my time talking to old and experienced railroaders. THAT'S what taught me about how things really work in the US. Care to tell me about your practical railroading experience? Care to offer an explanation why the physics governing firing, combustion and evaporation rates would differ betwen here and the US?

Reading technical manuels will never teach you about the American Spirit, or about our "We Will Get it Done" attitudes,

No, but reading your waffle teaches me about the spirit of ignorant parochialism, and the attitude that academic learning or research is beneath you. Your attitude is exactly what I'd expect from a semi-educated person such as you appear to be.

and most certainly, the business practices of certain RR entities were not entirely documented.

Only someone as ill-informed as you are would claim that. US railroads and their business practices would be about the most documented industries around.

it was a suggestion to make a MODEL RAILROAD contest interesting to me, because I'm not trying to build a REAL railroad.

And yet you're determined to make the case that your model concept has some prototypical precedent. Bit of a double standard on your part. You made your suggestion to make the contest interesting to you, but when I did the same you carry on like a big girl's blouse - more double standards.

believe that's the idea of the exercise, to learn what we don't know, in my case, about the MidWestern Railroads.

Fat chance of you learning anything that doesn't accord with your narrow view of the world. I've been trying to set you straight on a number of topics, with no success.

so because YOU prefer PROTOTYPE, we all have to??)

My preference is for me, only. You're the one who has a problem with differing opinions. But you prefer the prototype whan you think it can be used to justify your ideas and thinking. You should decide which side of the fence you want to be on - or get used to being regarded as a hypocrite.

That depends - it could well be, if it were done the right way. (Don't you mean YOUR way?)

Of course. If it was someone else's way, it wouldn't meet my needs or satisfy me. Same as it would be for you, only you're too obtuse to grasp that, either.

(I suggest you do more reaserach, in prototype, track was arranged as needed to suit the demand, and in some cases, though rare, this was exactlly the case)

Yes, in built-up, heavily populated urban areas. Not small agricultural towns in the Midwest. You should do some research of your own - you might learn something... LOL!

Layout Design Elements....EXACTLY MODEL RAILROAD CONCEPTS...Duhh!, Dumb ***.

LDE's - a recognisable element of a PROTOTYPE scene you want to duplicate. Prototype railroad concepts, in other words.

Now, who's the dimwit???

[marknewton]

I suggest you and Mark read this thread from beginnig to end again, as I just have. I never stated that I knew more than anyone else, or that my original suggestion was PROTOTYPICAL. I suggested a group of Elements that could be combined to form a Layout Design. I once stated in a re-reply to Dave, that I "believe ALL small towns would have some provision...". What begat where we are now was a combination of misstatement/lack of explanation by me, and misinterpretation/need to argue by Mark. Your original reply to that Post should have ended all this bickering, but somehow, Mark just couldn't let it go that someone dare suggest something non-prototypical.

Yet again, you're deliberately distorting what I wrote. I expressed MY OWN preference for a 2x8 design based on prototype. I contrasted that with your suggestion because you were the one who introduced such nonsense as coal piles and 0-4-0 branchline engines, no-one else.

What I objected to - and you're still doing it - is that on the one hand you repeatedly claimed that your suggestion was prototypical, and stated unequivocally that you did know more than us "foreigners", but when you were challenged by those who did know better, you back-pedalled and played the aggrieved innocent.

I too read the entire thread. I can see exactly what you wrote, and how you've ducked and weaved repeatedly, trying to change your story when challenged. You've changed your story so many times now I doubt you know what you claim to believe.

Anyway, do us all a favour - put up or shut up. Enter the contest, and let us all have the benefit of your wisdom and experience.

[marknewton]

Let's relax a bit and apply a little common sense to this question.

First, let's observe that railroads a general "cheap". If a facility is needed, they will build it. But they will NOT usually waste the stockholders' money on facilities that are NOT needed.

Second, assuming adequate tender capacity, most engines will be fueled between assignments at one of the division terminals. Most assignments involve running from one end to the other of the division.

However, there are some assignments where an engine will rarely visit a division terminal. Consider a helper grade in the middle of the division, there the helper engines will shuttle up and down the grade. In some cases, a engine may need to be assigned to an intermediate station if the switching workload exceeds that which the way freight can accomplish and complete its' other duties. In addition, engines may be assigned to a branch line where they shuttle between the junction and the end of the branch. In such cases, additional coaling facilities will be required to service these engines. Hence, there will be fueling facilities in some but not all of the stations to meet local requirements.

Have fun

 

Yes, there will be - and those fuelling facilities will be a bit more sophisticated than a pile of coal and a hose.

[tomikawaTT]

From eyeballs-on observation in several states, this is what I see as a, "Typical Midwestern Town," circa the 1950's.

Main line - straight through.

Passing siding - diverts to side away from combination station structure, still in use as a train order station with operator and signals.  May have same weight or lighter rail than main line.

Spur serving the rail side of the freight end of the combination station - or evidence that one was recently removed.

Spur serving a grain elevator, usually of lighter rail than track (main line or siding) to which connected.  May have restrictive sign to keep heavy locos off light rails.

Paved road parallel to and perhaps 100 yards away from the main line.  Perpendicular road, possibly gravel or unpaved, crosses the railroad at grade, usually close to the station.  On the other side of the paved road are a couple of businesses (gas station, general store with Post Office annex, tavern) and a couple of dwellings.

Places with water tanks were atypical, maybe one in four, maybe less.  Absent a branchline junction, fueling facilities of any kind were unknown.

(I always knew that driving from one Air Force Base to another would someday serve a useful purpose.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[steinjr]

From eyeballs-on observation in several states, this is what I see as a, "Typical Midwestern Town," circa the 1950's.

Main line - straight through.

Passing siding - diverts to side away from combination station structure, still in use as a train order station with operator and signals.  May have same weight or lighter rail than main line.

Spur serving the rail side of the freight end of the combination station - or evidence that one was recently removed.

Spur serving a grain elevator, usually of lighter rail than track (main line or siding) to which connected.  May have restrictive sign to keep heavy locos off light rails.

Paved road parallel to and perhaps 100 yards away from the main line.  Perpendicular road, possibly gravel or unpaved, crosses the railroad at grade, usually close to the station.  On the other side of the paved road are a couple of businesses (gas station, general store with Post Office annex, tavern) and a couple of dwellings.

Places with water tanks were atypical, maybe one in four, maybe less.  Absent a branchline junction, fueling facilities of any kind were unknown.

 Here is a prototypical track through a smallish midwestern town (Fergus Falls, Otter Tail County, MN - picture is from 1971, tracks are older):

 

 We are looking northwest along the Northern Pacific track. Depot is at left side of photo, freight track center left, elevator at top, concrete pipe plant and fuel dealer on siding at bottom.

 Same scene seen from the north towards the south:

 

 Fits Tomikawa's description pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

  For added modelling interest - the Great Northern crosses the NP line at grade just a few hundred yards to the east of the scene above.

 

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[tomikawaTT]

Stein, by comparison to the towns I was thinking of in Western South Dakota and Northwestern Nebraska, Fergus Falls is a metropolis!  Most of the places I was remembering had to count the dogs and cats to get a population figure with three digits.

At that time, the third largest settlement in South Dakota was an Air Force Base.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[dehusman]

But then again numerous participants have said that if the contest was in any way tied or restricted to the prototype they didn't want to bother with the contest.

So it really doesn't matter what is prototypical or not, what's in a small town or not for the purposes of the contest.  It is literally anything you want to put on a 2x8 chunk of plywood and then say is in a agricultural community. You could put a cement plant, an oil refinery and a foundry as industries (all of which can be found in smaller rural towns in the Midwest) and call it Podunk, Kansas and as long as there is a runaround and no industry spurs or yard tracks extend off the edge of the board, you're in. 

By the time everybody gets done putting a yard, engine facilites and several industries on the module, the track plan will be indistinguishable from one designed to represent a major urban center.

Dave H.

[steinjr]

Stein, by comparison to the towns I was thinking of in Western South Dakota and Northwestern Nebraska, Fergus Falls is a metropolis!  Most of the places I was remembering had to count the dogs and cats to get a population figure with three digits.

At that time, the third largest settlement in South Dakota was an Air Force Base.

 I know what you mean. Fergus Falls is a reasonably big small town - pop about 13 000 or so. 

 I could have posted aerial pictures of the town I got married in - Dalton, MN, pop 258 as of the 2000 Census. My wife's grandpa had a rail served business in Dalton back in the 1950s or so - a smallish lumber dealership. 

 View from the south:

View from the north:

Could be modelled fairly easy, maybe something like this:

 But I think a place like Fergus probably would have been more interesting on a model railroad. Here is an attempt to model the scene from the picture I posted a few posts ago:

 

 Edit: Names of streets are mostly prototypical - that is - South Sheridan and East Hampton are actual street names from Fergus, South Pacific is named by me, using the same template for names (it is south of the Otter Tail River - and South Northern Pacific Street got to be too silly ). Names of businesses have a distinct NW Minnesota/Fergus Falls flavor, but are just made up by me.

 Types of traffic and max capacity for stuff that could be delivered to the various spurs and sidings (top to bottom) :

• Coop spur: one tank car to the vegetable oil plant (tanks in upper left hand corner), one flatcar or boxcar of machinery and parts to the agricultural machine store, two or three empty boxcars or covered hoppers to the Coop elevator.
• Manufacturing spur: one boxcar or flatcar
• North storage spur: one flatcar for end unloading to the agricultural machine store, up to four off spot cars/temporary storage cars
• South storage spur: three off spot cars/temporary storage cars
• North siding: not normally used for spotting cars - used for runaround moves and access to the five north end spurs. Can be used to run around 5 cars on the main, or as a place to duck into with an engine and 4 cars to let a train past on the main.
• Freight house spur: two flatcars or boxcars, for unloading LCL (Less than Car Load) freight into the freight house (right end of depot) or as a team track - to transload to a truck on the dirt track above the freight house spur.
• Northern Pacific's mainline east-west. Can be connected with rest of layout (or staging) at both ends w/o too excessive curves.
• South siding: two boxcars or covered hoppers for the GTA elevator, one tank car or an open hopper with coal for the fuel dealer, one or two gondolas or flatcars for the concrete company. Can also be used as a passing siding to let trains (e.g passenger trains) past on the mainline - will fit one small engine and 7 40' boxcars.

 Other highlights: this 2x8 section could be switched on its own - there is room for three 40' cars and a short switcher type engine left of the leftmost turnout, and room for a short engine and two 40' cars to move cars between the Coop elevator spur and the north siding.

 But it would work better as part of a larger layout - there is room for short freight train of one engine and 7 40' cars to duck into south siding (if there is no cars there) to let a passenger train past on the mainline.

 Hope my 2x8 small town agricultural LDE seems like a reasonable approximation of the prototype.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[HarryHotspur]

So far, this is a great contest.

[ICRR1964]

In my home town which is 10 miles from where I live now, the opoulation was 200, that was counting cats and dogs to. The pictures I have got and seen are early 1900- 1930's time. These contained a water tower for steamers, and a coal pit with conveyor, one siding about 400ft long, Depote was here and one dead end spure about 250 feet that had freight, lumber, grain and I believe what looks to be a feed house or creamer plant, not sure which. Ther were 2 roads that you were able to cross sitting about 1/4 mile apart. Main street came off the main road and was very short, with building being hardware, post office, machanics shop, barber, diner, bank, ag retail store, and tavern. Some of these building are still standing, but most are gone, were constructed of brick and wood. The main street was a very short street with only being maybe 225 feet long, with building on both sides of the street.

Almost forgot this one, at the edge of town was the grain service, and tile pit and tile factory, these are gone to. All this was in a central Illinois town that I grew up in. 

[steinjr]

In my home town which is 10 miles from where I live now, the opoulation was 200, that was counting cats and dogs to. The pictures I have got and seen are early 1900- 1930's time. These contained a water tower for steamers, and a coal pit with conveyor, one siding about 400ft long, Depote was here and one dead end spure about 250 feet that had freight, lumber, grain and I believe what looks to be a feed house or creamer plant, not sure which. Ther were 2 roads that you were able to cross sitting about 1/4 mile apart. Main street came off the main road and was very short, with building being hardware, post office, machanics shop, barber, diner, bank, ag retail store, and tavern. Some of these building are still standing, but most are gone, were constructed of brick and wood. The main street was a very short street with only being maybe 225 feet long, with building on both sides of the street.

Almost forgot this one, at the edge of town was the grain service, and tile pit and tile factory, these are gone to. All this was in a central Illinois town that I grew up in. 

 Sounds like it would an interesting place to model, too. What is the town called ? Got any links to pictures that are online ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[ICRR1964]

Have 2 photo's, but do not know how to post them. One is from the top of the grain elevator taken in the early 1900's, and the other is drawing. The towns name is Thawville, in Illinois. It has the old IC line that runs threw it. The spure, and siding are gone removed years ago sometime or another in the 1970's. My great, great grand father worked for the IC from 1877-1910. My great grandfather worked for the IC from 1918 to I beleive 1960. He showed me years ago where some of the buildings were, the water tower for steamers, it was a huge one for a small town he said. Where the small coal pit waswhich was used by the people also for heating. And a I almost forgot I have a picture of the depot that is gone.

The two towns thatare north and south of this one are 7 miles away, and 8 miles away. The largest standing coaling area was right at 14 miles away, and it was a huge one made of wood and concrete. The concrete part of it is still standing at the present.

[steinjr]

Have 2 photo's, but do not know how to post them. One is from the top of the grain elevator taken in the early 1900's, and the other is drawing. The towns name is Thawville, in Illinois. It has the old IC line that runs threw it. The spur, and siding are gone removed years ago sometime or another in the 1970's. My great, great grand father worked for the IC from 1877-1910. My great grandfather worked for the IC from 1918 to I believe 1960.

 He showed me years ago where some of the buildings were, the water tower for steamers, it was a huge one for a small town he said. Where the small coal pit was which was used by the people also for heating. And a I almost forgot I have a picture of the depot that is gone.

The two towns that are north and south of this one are 7 miles away, and 8 miles away. The largest standing coaling area was right at 14 miles away, and it was a huge one made of wood and concrete. The concrete part of it is still standing at the present.

 Thawville, Illinois Central. Mmm - that rings a bell somehow. The CN/IC Santa train ? The one that was featured in Trains Magazine in December 2007 ? Nice!

 So Thawville didn't have a coaling tower as such - it had a coal bin (or pit ?), which was used at least partly for heating the depot ? Was it used to refuel RR engines ?

  And there was a coaling tower in a town about 14 miles away ? Mmm - checking a map - whereabouts would that be - maybe at Onarga, which looks like it could be a RR junction town ?  

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[dehusman]

What he's talking about when he says a "coal pit" is a dump to unload hopper cars for a commercial coal dealer. Somebody who sells coal retail to homes and businesses. One of their customers may have even been the depot. There were literally thousands of them across the country. I would agree that most small towns would have a coal dealer, especially in a coal rich, colder climate area. It wasn't uncommon for the business to be combined with a feed mill or agricultural supply dealer. It colder areas, it might not be that unusual to have more than one coal dealer in a town. The two most common arrangements would be a small pit about 5 feet square and 3-5 feet deep with a conveyor to load into trucks, to a storage bin or into a pile where it would be shoved to storage, or a trestle from 5 to 20 feet high that would dump to a storage pile or bin.

But they were not for fueling engines. They did not service engines. They were not set up to fuel engines.  They were commercial businesses that sold coal. Making the leap that they were locomotive fueling locations is like saying that because the tracks run by a gas station that sells diesel fuel today, its a place they refuel locomotives.

Dave H.

[ICRR1964]

Hmmm. Well you know what guys this thread seems to be going know where for me, its turning into a debate so I will step aside on it. I have some really old pics, and drawings of the town, but feel its going to be question if I knew how to post them. So i won't waste your time.

I'll keep a watch on this thread and see what kind of design we come up with, looks like it going to be good.

[marknewton]

It's a pity you see things that way. All Dave and I are trying to do is correct some misinformation, and hopefully educate others about the way steam locos were service and maintained.

You made a good case elsewhere for teaching newcomers, and what has been posted by us in this thread is no different in intent from that. You may be an old hand, but that doesn't man you can't still learn something new. I certainly have!

All the best,

Mark.

[ICRR1964]

No thats Ok Mark. I'm not going to get involved in this even if I do have pictures and facts, It will just draw more debate. Have fun guys!

[dehusman]

If you have pictures and facts share them.  No problem.  I have no doubt there was a coal yard and if you say there was a water tower I believe you. 

But hand shoveling coal into a tender in the 1950's on a class 1 railroad, that's something that would be very, very, very, very rare.  You can fill a diesel engine with water from a 1" or so hose.  Done it.  You can also fill a diesel engine with water from a fire truck.  Modern railroads do that every so often.   But a tender, you would fill from a fire hydrant if anything (actually arranged that too).  That's the only water supply, other than an actual water tower, that would provide enough water to fill a tender in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time.  Especially if it has a train on the main.

Dave H.

[steinjr]

No thats Ok Mark. I'm not going to get involved in this even if I do have pictures and facts, It will just draw more debate. Have fun guys!

 Umm - this is not in any way intended to insult you, but it would probably work better if you instead of just talking about "having pictures and facts" simply explained in clear terms exactly what you have.

 What did you mean by "coal pit" - does your description match the one Dave gave or did your coal pit look different ? Was the coal pit right next to the depot ? Next to some other business ? Somewere else ?

 How do you know it was used for recoaling engines (rather than belonging to a local coal dealer who used it as a stockpile to deliver coal retail to local homes and businesses) ?

• Have you personally seen an engine being recoaled from the coal pit ?
• Do you have a photo actually showing people refueling an engine from the coal pit ?
• Did someone else tell you that they had seen an engine recoaled from the coal pit ?
• You assumed that a coal pile near a depot meant it had been used for coal to engines ?
• Something else ?

 The most robust evidence would be to have a picture showing people shoveling (or otherwise transferring) coal from the pit into a railroad engine tender. Second most robust would be for you to tell us that you had seen this operation with your own eyes. Third person hearsay can be somewhat reliable. Assumptions are less reliable.

 If you explained _how_ you arrived at your conclusion, it could very well be that you are right and Dave and Mark are wrong. 

 I spent the better part of an hour yesterday (and another hour this morning) looking for pictures (and information) in various online sources to see if I could locate more info on the IC line past Thawville, IL, and pictures from Thawville.

 Sadly I didn't find anything that could explain how this coal thing in Thawville worked.

 I learned that Thawville (pop 2000: 258) is an unincorporated village in Ridgeland Township, Iroquois County, near the Illinois/Indiana border, south of Chicago.

 I went through the lists of people living in enumeration district 46 (Thawville Village, Ridgeland Township, Iroquois County) of Illinois in the last census that is searchable on the net - the 1930 census. Thawville was possibly home base for an IC section (MOW) crew - among the people listed in the village in 1930 is one IC RR section foreman (John Johnson) and one IC RR section laborer (Chas H Pierce). There was also one IC RR agent in Thawville village in 1930 - 20 y.o Marshall Eshleman.

 I leafed through the five pages of handwritten census information - spotted several merchants, quite a few school teachers, a couple of mailmen, a baker, a butcher, a mechanic, an electrician etc. No one that (in 1930) was listed as a coal dealer. That's not conclusive either way, though - in a village this size a potensial coal dealership could have been a side business for something else.

 And it is not a given that the businesses (and RR jobs) that existed in 1930 were the same as the ones which existed 20-25 years later - around 1950-55.

 Anyways - as you can see, I am willing to learn, I am willing to do my own homework and I am willing to share what I find out. 

 Are you ? It obviously is up to you if you want to do any actual research on Thawville, with the intent of possibly modelling it, or if you just want to go "I know what I know, but I don't want to discuss it".

 If you want to do analyze what you got, then we probably learn one of two things :

1. Maybe this whole discussion was due to misunderstanding about what the coal pile/pit was and a better thing to model in your average/typical small midwestern agricultural town would be a small coal dealership instead of a engine recoaling spot.
2. Or maybe engines actually were recoaled from a pile on the ground or a pit on the IC around this age, and this would have been a fair thing to model, from a prototype true point of view.  

 Either way it is useful info for RR modellers. If you do the latter ("I don't want to discuss this any more"), then nobody learns anything of much value from this discussion about recoaling engines from the ground in small rural/agricultural midwestern communities in the 1950s.

 Then the only thing we learn is that some people (like Mark or Dave) like to present the evidence and reasoning they used to support their claims, and other people just get upset when asked how they arrived at their claim. And that's not news - we already know that people are different

 But it is your call. I'll stop bugging you about this subject now - if you want to share your sources in a useful way - then that is just great! If not - also okay.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[marknewton]

...a tender, you would fill from a fire hydrant if anything (actually arranged that too).  That's the only water supply, other than an actual water tower, that would provide enough water to fill a tender in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time.  Especially if it has a train on the main.

Dave H.

The other big objection to using water from a hydrant is that it isn't treated in any way, and if my experience is typical, it's got enough rubbish in it to cause problems with foaming and priming. You might use a hydrant in an emergency, but to water regularly like that defies all sense.

Cheers,

Mark.